Featured Justification versus Eternal Redemption

Quotation code kept popping up so decided to just redo this one. No changes were made to the responses.

He wasn't the only one:


Matthew 26:71-75 King James Version (KJV)

71 And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth.

72 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man.

73 And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee.

74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.

75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.


We have already seen Peter vehemently reject the Gospel:


Matthew 16:20-23 King James Version (KJV)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Because Peter was "weak in the flesh," as nearly every preacher I have ever heard teaches?

No, because the Gospel was not yet being revealed, it was still a Mystery.

Right, death passed to all men...not sin, as many believe. Adam's provision for everlasting life was the Tree of Life, and being thrust out of the Garden...he died. Now all men suffer the penalty of sin because they do not have access to the Tree of Life.

But, what men need is to be alive in Christ, and that takes place when they are baptized into Christ. They have eternallife because they are now one with Eternal God:


John 14:20 King James Version (KJV)

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.


John 17:11 King James Version (KJV)

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

I am not in the habit of going through the works of men people think are relevant. If they are relevant and you have learned by them this should be expressed in your own postings.


God bless.

 

Seriously? lol

This is what you see when you read what I wrote? Let's try again:

THis is just one of numerous questions posed to you and the only thing I get is more insult. More insinuation. And more false representation of what I said.

It's a very simple point, so I will supply it to you: This was written after Abraham was declared righteous because He believe God, faith was established, and he performed works.

Yet still...there is none righteous, no not one.

We see that here as well...


Galatians 3:21-25 King James Version (KJV)

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


There's a lot here for us:

1. The Law could not give life (and in view is eternal life), and that was the only provision they had (as well as those prior to the establishment of the Law, which made God's will formal for His people);

2. Scripture still held all men under the penalty for sin, which denies that being declared righteous removed Abraham's sin debt, which denies application of the Atonement prior to the Cross.

3. The Promise of the Father was still pending when this was written;

4. There was a time before faith in Christ (which is how men are justified on an eternal basis) came;

5. There was a time after faith came.

6: There was a time when men needed to be redeemed from the Law, which was not just the entire time the Covenant of Law was in force but all men prior to that as well;

7. There was a time when men were redeemed from the Law, hence Paul's later statement:


Galatians 4:4-6 King James Version (KJV)

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


We know when God sent forth His Son, and we know why:


John 3:14-16 King James Version (KJV)

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

You are the one that "made that up." It isn't in what I said.

Oops...

I would agree, that is why salvation is by grace.

Natural man cannot understand the spiritual things of God and the Gospel of Jesus Christ is at the top of that list. And we see that this is actually a primary ministry of the Comforter...after He is sent:


John 16:7-9 King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


Salvation is by the grace and mercy of God, despite the popular notion that we are saved by faith through grace, as one member unfortunately tried to argue.

He reveals the truth of our condition and we resond to that ministry. We cannot know we are sinners unless God makes this understood to us.


God bless.

 

There is one Gospel of Jesus Christ, but that Gospel was revealed progressively over four millennia.

For example, the "Gospel" that those in the wilderness heard was that they would receive "rest." They understood that as a land where they would have peace and provision. We understand it as salvation in Christ.

Abraham heard the Gospel and understood it as Paul states here:


Galatians 3:6-8 King James Version (KJV)

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Great. Now all you need is Scripture to support that the Old Testament Saints were redeemed.

You won't find it. You should spend some time in Hebrews.

Again, the exact opposite of what Scripture teaches:


Ephesians 3:3-5 King James Version (KJV)

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;


You need to step away from books about the Bible and get into the Books of the Bible.

Hmm, so if David had forgiveness of sins on an eternal basis...why does Scripture state he died in faith not receiving the Promise? The Promise is defined as remission of sins on an eternal basis:


Hebrews 10:15-18 King James Version (KJV)

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

David offered up sacrifice his entire life and died not receiving remission of sins through Christ.

And how exactly did David have faith in Christ when he lived under the Law and Scripture makes it clear that faith in Christ was not yet available?


Galatians 3:21-25 King James Version (KJV)

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


Do you see in v.23 that faith in Christ would be revelaed...afterwards?

You are teaching the exact opposite of what Scripture teaches and this is because you are letting men do your thinking instead of your own personal study in GOd's Word.


Continued...

 

Deuteronomy 30:6 King James Version (KJV)

6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.


First, the "living" they would receive is physical life. They would not be put to death physically if they loved God.

Secondly, you are again ignoring the fact that Regeneration required the death and Resurrection of Christ:


John 3:9, 14-16 King James Version (KJV)

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?


14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


1 Peter 1:3 King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

I would also point out that the Gospel had to be revealed in order for men to be born again:


James 1:18 King James Version (KJV)

18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.


1 Peter 1:23 King James Version (KJV)

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


That the Gospel of Christ is in view is evident in the fact that the Law could not give life:


Galatians 3:21 King James Version (KJV)

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.


And that this did not take place until the Incarnation is also evident:


John 1:11-13 King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Your other proof text...


Philippians 3 King James Version (KJV)

1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.

2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.


You have taken out of context. Not only does it not support Regeneration in the Old Testament, it refers to New Covenant believers. It contrasts Jews who are not believers with Jews who are.

Did you even look at any of these proof texts?


Continued...

 

It is true that after about two thousand years Propecy concerning the Christ began to be more developed so that men understood that a Messiah was coming, but faith in a prophesied Messiah is not the same as faith in the Risen Savior, Jesus Christ.

First, I have shown you that the Gospel was a Mystery and that faith in Christ was not available under the Law, which denies it being available prior to the establishment of the Law.

Secondly, if faith in a coming Messiah is all it took for one to be Eternally Redeemed...then we must declare that all Jews who believe the Old Testament and look for the Messiah to come are equivelant to born again believers.

Congratulations, you just created two ways for men to be saved. You should get busy, because there are many Jews you need to inform that they are part of the Church of Christ.

Of course where you are going to have difficulty is overcoming that one fatal flaw to your belief...they are rejecting Jesus Christ.

So congratulations, not only have you created two gospels, and two means for salvation...you have actually created one in which men can be saved and reject Jesus Christ all at the same time.

No, actually "we" do not, unless you are a Jew.


1 Corinthians 10 King James Version (KJV)

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


"They," not we.

We are baptized into Moses, we are baptized into Christ, they were not.

We partake of the Bread of Heaven, they did not.

They were followed by the Christ...whereas we follow him. He is our fore-runner, the Author and Finisher of our faith.

I know you probably do not see how weak your proof texts are, nor understand that instead of being able to go to the treasure of God's Word and defending the Faith you are forced to look to men for answers, but that is the case. The basic principles given in this thread will help you, but as the Lord stated, "...it is hard to kick against the goads."

From what I have already seen an entirely unreliable resource. I would suggest you refrain from letting it keep you in the chains of tradition.


God bless.

 

Hi Van, I will address your points when you address mine without insult.

Oh, and by the way, I agree, it isn't the detailed response with a Scriptural support that advances my view, it is the Word of God that does that.


God bless.

 

You are quoting yourself. If you have a problem with it just look at my response to see how to address the error.

You understand that the word "day" isn't limited to a 24 hour period, don't you?

Precisely. I know popular and traditional teaching impose a "spiritual death" but the fact is that eternal life was not bestowed to men, including Adam...until Pentecost.

And I have given more than enough Scripture that, if you chose to have a serious conversation, that we could discuss.

I will once more post one that teaches this:

You are avoiding the Scripture that is being provided to you. If you disagree with the point/s...address it directly.


God bless.

 

First, the Holy Spirit is God, and God is One.

Do you not know, even after I have shown you in Scripture, that Christ prophesied the Eternal Indwelling of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost?

Here it is again:

And again you teach contrarily to what Scripture teaches: You say there is only one baptism and that water baptism, so is that...

...the Promise of the Father?


Acts 1:4-5 King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


Do you really not see what Paul is saying here...


Ephesians 4:4-6 King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


...?


One Body...the Church.

One Spirit...God.

In us all.

You should revisit Acts 10-11, and see that Cornelius is saved when he receives the Baptism with the Spirit of God.

An argument that "...the Spirit never baptized anything" is no argument, it is a denial of Basic Bible Doctrine. When the Spirit of Truth was sent at Pentecost we see that He, and the Father, and the Son came.

Because they are One God.


God bless.

 

Yes, because detailed presetations of Biblical Doctrine are always insulting.

Insulting to those who reject truth, yes.

You cannot even recognize you begin your entrance into this thread with an insult.

Show where I denied Romans 4. You haven't even read the OP have you?

Typical Van.

That is correct. HAving our sins forgiven on an eternal basis does not mean we become "flawless." And I explained that in my response to you.

If you want to talk with me, great. If you want to talk at me...find another thread to disrupt.

Why would your opinion mean anything, Van? You don't even know what has been said. You can't even go through the short response I gave you and accurately understand what I said, much less anything of real volume.

So I will ask you a question based on your denial of what you think was said: if Abraham was righteous on an eternal basis why were there none righteous?

And this is the last response you get until you learn some manners.


God bless.

 

I had to do this response separately because of the length:

lol

Van, how can we have a discussion if you don't even bother reading the posts?

Show me where I denied the Old Testament Saints were made perfect after the Cross? I have made that clear throughout the thread:

Continued...

 

And that doesn't even include what I stated in my first response to you or the posts that follow.

Pay attention and stop making false accusations.


God bless.

 

Not sure that the One teaching it can be said to be ignoring it, lol.


God bless.