Featured Do we have free will to choose to believe and follow God?

3rdAngel · Sep 5, 2019

Alan Gross said: ↑

You put Believers for lost people, who are non-Elect, and have no will to come to Jesus, any more than any other Spiritually dead sinner, unless The Holy Spirit Makes them Alive,

which God Says are "rejected", in context.

"such are meant, who are so enlightened as to see the evil effects of sin,
but not the evil that is in sin;

" to see the good things which come by Christ,
but not the goodness that is in Christ;

"so as to reform externally,
but not to be sanctified internally;

" to have knowledge of the Gospel doctrinally,
but not experimentally;"

... that hypocrites please themselves with, having some speculative notions about them, and some desires after them, arising from a natural principle of self-love",*

when they are:

Hebrews 6:8

"... that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected,

and is nigh unto cursing;

whose end is to be burned."

...

If they were able to consider that they are "rejected", they would.

For some reason, you add in that the wording can not be considered to mean, "rejected".

To you, you pronounce them 'Believers', because the Spiritual Reality of them being "rejected" is hidden, with no wise and prudent ability to will them to be considered anything but 'Believers'.

That's natural.
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You are confused brother Allan I have never said that HEBREWS 6:4-8 is in reference to "BELIEVERS" The scriptures show that HEBREWS 6:4-8 is in reference to those who were "ONCE BELIEVERS" but had FALLEN AWAY to return back to a life of KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN. This was shown scripture by scripture in post # 93 linked here and post # 94 linked here, that you ignore and refuse to address. I can understand why you will not adderss these posts as they show the this to be true. Ignoring God's Word brother does not make it dissappear. This has only been sent in all respect and love and as a help to you. I hope you can receive it in the Spirit in which it was given (love). Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it *ROMANS 3:4. If you disagree please address the linked posts that show in detail that these scriptures are in reference to those who were once believers but departed the faith. If you cannot why do you not believe God's Word?

Hope this helps.

Alan Gross · Sep 6, 2019

3rdAngel said: ↑

You are confused brother Allan I have never said that HEBREWS 6:4-8 is in reference to "BELIEVERS" The scriptures show that HEBREWS 6:4-8 is in reference to those who were "ONCE BELIEVERS" but had FALLEN AWAY to return back to a life of KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN. This was shown scripture by scripture in post # 93 linked here and post # 94 linked here, that you ignore and refuse to address. I can understand why you will not adderss these posts as they show the this to be true. Ignoring God's Word brother does not make it dissappear. This has only been sent in all respect and love and as a help to you. I hope you can receive it in the Spirit in which it was given (love). Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it *ROMANS 3:4. If you disagree please address the linked posts that show in detail that these scriptures are in reference to those who were once believers but departed the faith. If you cannot why do you not believe God's Word?

Hope this helps.
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Those who are so enlightened as to see the evil effects of sin,
but not the evil that is in sin have never been lost.

You have to be lost before you can be Saved.

Those who are so enlightened as to see the evil effects of sin,
but not the evil that is in sin have never been lost, in Being Brought Under Conviction of their lost inability before their Creator, or they wouldn't be claiming 'will', or 'power to choose', much less thinking they or anyone else could be lost and then 'Believers', then lost, again, no matter how dead their inability to Interpret The Bible.

And, if they thought they were lost and then 'Believed', then experience another Fall of man into sin, then they are lost Forever, now, unless they can also 'will' and have the 'power to choose' to 'make Jesus come back' and die for them, again.

And The Book Says that is Impossible.

Those who are so enlightened as to see the evil effects of sin,
but not the evil that is in sin will major on boasting about their 'will' and 'power to choose', rather than what....?

The evil that is in their personal sin.

Their 'will' and 'power to choose', in their personal SIN, is only evil and dead toward God.

"the Day you eat thereof, you shall surely die"

"you hath He quicked who were dead"

"dead in trespasses and in sins".

The re-invention of the false wild rash guesswork assumed by reasoning with a mind that has been effected by the curse of Adam's Fall into sin of, 'life comes from non-life' is a dead issue.

3rdAngel · Sep 6, 2019

Alan Gross said: ↑

Those who are so enlightened as to see the evil effects of sin,
but not the evil that is in sin have never been lost.

You have to be lost before you can be Saved.

Those who are so enlightened as to see the evil effects of sin,
but not the evil that is in sin have never been lost, in Being Brought Under Conviction of their lost inability before their Creator, or they wouldn't be claiming 'will', or 'power to choose', much less thinking they or anyone else could be lost and then 'Believers', then lost, again, no matter how dead their inability to Interpret The Bible.

And, if they thought they were lost and then 'Believed', then experience another Fall of man into sin, then they are lost Forever, now, unless they can also 'will' and have the 'power to choose' to 'make Jesus come back' and die for them, again.

And The Book Says that is Impossible.

Those who are so enlightened as to see the evil effects of sin,
but not the evil that is in sin will major on boasting about their 'will' and 'power to choose', rather than what....?

The evil that is in their personal sin.

Their 'will' and 'power to choose', in their personal SIN, is only evil and dead toward God.

"the Day you eat thereof, you shall surely die"

"you hath He quicked who were dead"

"dead in trespasses and in sins".

The re-invention of the false wild rash guesswork assumed by reasoning with a mind that has been effected by the curse of Adam's Fall into sin of, 'life comes from non-life' is a dead issue.
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Hi Allan, please let me know when you wish to address the scripture in post # 93 linked here and post # 94 linked here, that disagree with you. These scriptures show in HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-27 that BELIEVERS can FALL AWAY from believing and following God's Word and return to unrepentant sin. Ignoring God's Word does not make it dissappear.

Yeshua1 · Sep 6, 2019

3rdAngel said: ↑

Hi Allan, please let me know when you wish to address the scripture in post # 93 linked here and post # 94 linked here, that disagree with you. These scriptures show in HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-27 that BELIEVERS can FALL AWAY from believing and following God's Word and return to unrepentant sin. Ignoring God's Word does not make it dissappear.
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The author of Hebrews contrasted those who merely professed faith in Jesus with those who were really saved, as Hebrews 6 describes those like under the OT heard God and saw miracles , and yet in the end departed from God. So never really saved, but setting in the assemblies and hearing the truth, but in the end, showed true colors by departing.

3rdAngel · Sep 6, 2019

Yeshua1 said: ↑

The author of Hebrews contrasted those who merely professed faith in Jesus with those who were really saved, as Hebrews 6 describes those like under the OT heard God and saw miracles , and yet in the end departed from God. So never really saved, but setting in the assemblies and hearing the truth, but in the end, showed true colors by departing.
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WRONG!

Here is why you are wrong. These are Gods Word not mine and only sent in love as a help to you. I have numbered the sections within this passage and pulled out the sections from the scriptures word for word afterwards to show that these scriptures are a warning to those who were ONCE BELIEVERS that had fallen away and departed the faith. These are all God's Word's not mine..

HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those (1) WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and (2) HAVE TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and (3) WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, [5], And have (4) TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, and (5) THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, [6], (6) IF THEY (believers) SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEM AGAIN TO REPENTANCE ; seeing (7) THEY (believers) crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame. [7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God: [8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; (8) WHOS END IS TO BE BURNED.

The following are taken directly from the above scriptures...

1. They were once enlightened; HEBREWS 6:4
2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift; HEBREWS 6:4
3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; HEBREWS 6:4
4. Having tasted of the good Word of God; HEBREWS 6:5
5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come HEBREWS 6:5
6. THEY (BELIEVERS) FALL AWAY; HEBREWS 6:6
7. THEY (BELIEVERS) renew themselves to repentance; HEBREWS 6:6
8. THEY (BELIEVERS) by their sins crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame; HEBREWS 6:6

Hebrews 6:4-8 is talking about those who were ONCE BELIEVERS and had FALLEN AWAY and departed the faith to return back to a life on known UNREPENTANT SIN. All the above are God's Word not mine and proof scripture by scripture and word for word that these are WARNINGS to believers about those who were "ONCE BELIEVERS" that departed the faith to return to a life of known unrepentant sin.

Hope this is helpful and you can receive it in the Spirit it was given (love). God's Word disagrees with you brother. Ignoring God's Word does not make it dissappear.

Yeshua1 · Sep 7, 2019

3rdAngel said: ↑

WRONG!

Here is why you are wrong. These are Gods Word not mine and only sent in love as a help to you. I have numbered the sections within this passage and pulled out the sections from the scriptures word for word afterwards to show that these scriptures are a warning to those who were ONCE BELIEVERS that had fallen away and departed the faith. These are all God's Word's not mine..

HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those (1) WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and (2) HAVE TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and (3) WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, [5], And have (4) TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, and (5) THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, [6], (6) IF THEY (believers) SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEM AGAIN TO REPENTANCE ; seeing (7) THEY (believers) crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame. [7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God: [8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; (8) WHOS END IS TO BE BURNED.

The following are taken directly from the above scriptures...

1. They were once enlightened; HEBREWS 6:4
2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift; HEBREWS 6:4
3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; HEBREWS 6:4
4. Having tasted of the good Word of God; HEBREWS 6:5
5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come HEBREWS 6:5
6. THEY (BELIEVERS) FALL AWAY; HEBREWS 6:6
7. THEY (BELIEVERS) renew themselves to repentance; HEBREWS 6:6
8. THEY (BELIEVERS) by their sins crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame; HEBREWS 6:6

Hebrews 6:4-8 is talking about those who were ONCE BELIEVERS and had FALLEN AWAY and departed the faith to return back to a life on known UNREPENTANT SIN. All the above are God's Word not mine and proof scripture by scripture and word for word that these are WARNINGS to believers about those who were "ONCE BELIEVERS" that departed the faith to return to a life of known unrepentant sin.

Hope this is helpful and you can receive it in the Spirit it was given (love). God's Word disagrees with you brother. Ignoring God's Word does not make it dissappear.
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Those described were part of the local church, knew of Jesus, saw His acts and heard from the Apostles and others, yet never knew Jesus!

3rdAngel · Sep 7, 2019

Yeshua1 said: ↑

Those described were part of the local church, knew of Jesus, saw His acts and heard from the Apostles and others, yet never knew Jesus!
Click to expand...

Nope, God's Word says that they were "ONCE BELIEVERS" that departed the faith to return to a life of known unrepentant sin. It is God's Word not mine that says...

1. They were once enlightened; HEBREWS 6:4
2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift; HEBREWS 6:4
3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; HEBREWS 6:4
4. Having tasted of the good Word of God; HEBREWS 6:5
5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come HEBREWS 6:5
6. THEY (BELIEVERS) FALL AWAY; HEBREWS 6:6
7. THEY (BELIEVERS) renew themselves to repentance; HEBREWS 6:6
8. THEY (BELIEVERS) by their sins crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame; HEBREWS

These are God's Word, not mine do you believe them?

Yeshua1 · Sep 8, 2019

3rdAngel said: ↑

Nope, God's Word says that they were "ONCE BELIEVERS" that departed the faith to return to a life of known unrepentant sin. It is God's Word not mine that says...

1. They were once enlightened; HEBREWS 6:4
2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift; HEBREWS 6:4
3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; HEBREWS 6:4
4. Having tasted of the good Word of God; HEBREWS 6:5
5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come HEBREWS 6:5
6. THEY (BELIEVERS) FALL AWAY; HEBREWS 6:6
7. THEY (BELIEVERS) renew themselves to repentance; HEBREWS 6:6
8. THEY (BELIEVERS) by their sins crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame; HEBREWS

These are God's Word, not mine do you believe them?
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You misunderstand the scriptures here, as author is speaking to those who claimed to know Jesus as their Messiah, but turned back to Judaism and Temple when hard times hit them, thus showing their true colors!

3rdAngel · Sep 9, 2019

Yeshua1 said: ↑

You misunderstand the scriptures here, as author is speaking to those who claimed to know Jesus as their Messiah, but turned back to Judaism and Temple when hard times hit them, thus showing their true colors!
Click to expand...

No! I believe God's Word exactly as it read from the scriptures thankyou. It is God's Word not mine that says that HEBREWS 6:4-8 is in reference to those who were once BELIEVERS then had FALLEN AWAY from the faith to return to a life of known unrepentant sin.

These are all God's Word not mine and it is God's Word not mine that says word for word that these people were once believers. The proof is in the scriptures where it says that these people were...

1. They were once enlightened; HEBREWS 6:4
2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift; HEBREWS 6:4
3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; HEBREWS 6:4
4. Having tasted of the good Word of God; HEBREWS 6:5
5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come HEBREWS 6:5
6. THEY (BELIEVERS) HAD FALLEN AWAY; HEBREWS 6:6
7. THEY (BELIEVERS) renew themselves to repentance; HEBREWS 6:6
8. THEY (BELIEVERS) by their sins crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame; HEBREWS

All of the above are only signs of those who ONCE BELIEVED AND FOLLOWED God's Word.

These are God's Word, not mine do you believe them?

Yeshua1 · Sep 9, 2019

3rdAngel said: ↑

No! I believe God's Word exactly as it read from the scriptures thankyou. It is God's Word not mine that says that HEBREWS 6:4-8 is in reference to those who were once BELIEVERS then had FALLEN AWAY from the faith to return to a life of known unrepentant sin.

These are all God's Word not mine and it is God's Word not mine that says word for word that these people were once believers. The proof is in the scriptures where it says that these people were...

1. They were once enlightened; HEBREWS 6:4
2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift; HEBREWS 6:4
3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; HEBREWS 6:4
4. Having tasted of the good Word of God; HEBREWS 6:5
5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come HEBREWS 6:5
6. THEY (BELIEVERS) HAD FALLEN AWAY; HEBREWS 6:6
7. THEY (BELIEVERS) renew themselves to repentance; HEBREWS 6:6
8. THEY (BELIEVERS) by their sins crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame; HEBREWS

All of the above are only signs of those who ONCE BELIEVED AND FOLLOWED God's Word.

These are God's Word, not mine do you believe them?
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Not your understanding of them, as Jesus Hilself told that NONE that are saved by Him will ever get lost again!

3rdAngel · Sep 9, 2019

Yeshua1 said: ↑

Not your understanding of them, as Jesus Hilself told that NONE that are saved by Him will ever get lost again!
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Where does it say in the scriptures that none that are saved by JESUS will ever get lost again? Please there is no such scripture. If there is no such scripture why are you pretending that JESUS said something that he never said?

37818 · Sep 9, 2019

3rdAngel said: ↑

Where does it say in the scriptures that none that are saved by JESUS will ever get lost again?
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". . . I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one." -- John 10:28-30. Also the words ". . . neither shall any . . . " and ". . . no man is able . . . ." excludes even one's self from removing one from God's hands.

3rdAngel · Sep 9, 2019

37818 said: ↑

". . . I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one." -- John 10:28-30. Also the words ". . . neither shall any . . . " and ". . . no man is able . . . ." excludes even one's self from removing one from God's hands.
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Nope!

Here is why...

JOHN 10:28-30 is in reference to those who believe and follow God's Word will never perish. It does not say that those who "ONCE BELIEVED" God's Word and then FALL AWAY to become "UNBELIEVERS" will never perish. The CONTEXT of JOHN 10:28-30 is JOHN 10:1-10 and JOHN 10:26-27 which described those who will never perish as those who "BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD". The GREEK word for BELIEVE is an active verb "PRESENT TENSE" for BELIEVING. So the scripture meaning is all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD in the "PRESENT TENSE" (believing) will never perish. It does not say those who believed and followed God's Word yesterday and those who no longer believe and follow God's Word today and have become "UNBELIEVERS" will never perish *HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-31. This is why the scriptures teach only those who "ENDURE TEMPTATION TO THE END" receive eternal life *JAMES 1:12.

Hope this helps.

Yeshua1 · Sep 9, 2019

3rdAngel said: ↑

Where does it say in the scriptures that none that are saved by JESUS will ever get lost again? Please there is no such scripture. If there is no such scripture why are you pretending that JESUS said something that he never said?
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John 6:39 Jesus disagrees with you!

3rdAngel · Sep 9, 2019

Yeshua1 said: ↑

John 6:39 Jesus disagrees with you!
Click to expand...

WRONG!

Here is why...

Those who the farther has given JESUS are those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD (active verb BELIEVING; pretent tense}. Those who "ONCE BELIEVED" and FALL AWAY from the faith and return to a life of unrepentant sin do not believe and follow God's Word have become unbelievers *HEBREWS 6:4-8: HEBREWS 10:26-31.

It is God's Word that disagrees with you.

Yeshua1 · Sep 9, 2019

3rdAngel said: ↑

WRONG!

Here is why...

Those who the farther has given JESUS are those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD (active verb BELIEVING; pretent tense}. Those who "ONCE BELIEVED" and FALL AWAY from the faith and return to a life of unrepentant sin do not believe and follow God's Word have become unbelievers *HEBREWS 6:4-8: HEBREWS 10:26-31.

It is God's Word that disagrees with you.
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Those who have been saved are kept being saved unto the very end by God Himself, Romans 8!
Now both Jesus and paul disagree with you!

3rdAngel · Sep 9, 2019

Yeshua1 said: ↑

Those who have been saved are kept being saved unto the very end by God Himself, Romans 8!
Now both Jesus and paul disagree with you!
Click to expand...

WRONG!

Here is why...

The JEWS also argued with JESUS and said they were saved because they were the seed of ABRAHAM. JESUS said if you were the seed of Abraham you would do the works of ABRAHAM (believing and following God's Word). God's Word teaches no where that those who once believed God's Word and fall away to a life on unrepentant sin are being kept saved to the very end. This is not biblical. *HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-38. Only those who endure temptation to the end believing and following God's Word recieve eternal life. *JAMES 1:12.

ROMANS 8 is in reference to those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's Word.

I am sorry my friend God's Word disagrees with you.

Hope this helps

Squire Robertsson · Sep 9, 2019

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 4:15 PM Pacific.

37818 · Sep 9, 2019

@3rdAngel,

What makes you think you cannot falter following God's word?

3rdAngel · Sep 9, 2019

37818 said: ↑

@3rdAngel,

What makes you think you cannot falter following God's word?
Click to expand...

Hi brother 37818,

God's Word from GENESIS to REVELATIONS warns us that we can falter into unbelief. I believe we can falter because God's Word WARNS us not to depart the faith and fall away from the faith and that we have a free will to believe and follow Gods Word or not to believe and follow God's Word. At the end of the day it is God's Word that says only those who endure temptation to the end, believing and following God's Word who will be saved *JAMES 1:12

God bless

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