. . . in sanctification of the Spirit . . . .

[Reformed]

Hebrews 10:29 is describing a fictional individual who was never in Christ. He was never sanctified salvifically, although he played the part. This type of person is described in 1 John 2:19 and Jude 4.

You thought my answer was funny?

 

[37818]

. . . an unconditional choice/decree.

The so called unconditional is conditional on being wholly unmerded on the part of those whom God chose. That is a condition that God set.

 

[37818]

You thought my answer was funny?

Only if I undersand you to mean no such unbelieving individuals exist. As the Apostle Peter refers to such as, ". . . denying the Lord that bought them, . . ." -- 2 Peter 2:1.

 

[37818]

The author of Hebrews was not writing about a specific person. He created a composite of a person who is best described as an imposter who played the part but was never part of the body.

Not that such a person never existed. 2 Peter 2:1, ". . . But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that *bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. . . ." * 1 John 2:2.

 

[1689Dave]

The order of things in salvation.
Election
The Call
Sanctification
Repentance
Faith
Regneration.

". . . Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. . . ." -- 1 Peter 1:2.

". . . According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, . . ." -- Ephesians 1:4.

". . . God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . ." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.

". . . Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. . . ." -- John 17:17.

". . . faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. . . ." -- Romans 10:17.

Repentance precedes faith, Mark 1:15; 2 Timothy 2:25.

". . . For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, . . ." -- Ephesians 2:8-9.

Now a proof text that sanctification precedes repentance and faith is Hebrews 10:29 regarding a case of rejection of the faith, ". . . Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

The order of things in salvation.
1) Election
3) The Call
6) Sanctification
5) Repentance
4) Faith
2) Regeneration.

 

[3rdAngel]

Faith followed by repentance is a cult teaching. Mormonism and Churches of Christ cults.
So it is you do not know what you are talking about.
Repentance precedes faith.
As Jesus taught, ". . . repent ye, and believe . . . ."
Nowhere in the word of God where both terms, "repentance" and "faith" occur will you ever find any such order as, faith prior to repentance. Nowhere in Holy Scripture. Repentance is a change of mind or view, which must occur prior to changing one's belief.

I studied this over 50 years ago.

Sorry numbers you are confused. How can you repent if you do not believe? Your thinking here is unbiblical and makes no sense. If you studied this for 50 years you did not learn anything.

EPHESIANS 1:13 In whom you also trusted, AFTER THAT YOU HEARD THE WORD OF TRUTH, the gospel of your salvation: IN WHOM AFTER THAT YOU BELIEVED, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.

This is only sent in love and as a help to you. I hope you can receive this correction in the Spirit it was given (love).

 

[HankD]

The so called unconditional is conditional on being wholly unmerded on the part of those whom God chose. That is a condition that God set.

do you mean unmerited for unmerded?
If so, that makes no sense to me 37818 because every one of the human race has no merit before God therefor God would choose everyone.

IOW IF being wholly without merit is the criteria, GOD would therefor choose everyone.

 

[Dave G]

You do not understand the issue. If sanctification is prior to repentance or if salvation is prior to sanctification. Both are not true. It is one way or the other in Hebrews 10:29? Or what?

Yes, I do understand the issue.

Salvation ( God's decision to save someone ) is prior to sanctification ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ), because it happened before the foundation of the world.
Sanctification happened at the cross for God's elect, when Christ, who was slain from the foundation of the world ( Revelation 13:8 ), later went to the cross to give His life for His sheep ( John 10:11 ).
Repentance happened in real time in the life of the believer.

Salvation ( Choosing ) --------> Sanctification ( Christ's sacrifice ) --------> Regeneration --------> Gospel ( word of God ) / "Calling" ( Through the Holy Ghost ) --------> Belief ( of the word of God, not the words of men ) -------> Repentance.

This is where I differ with most who are considered "Calvinists", because I believe, through my reading of Scripture, that sanctification is actually of two different types:

1) Positionally, in God's eyes, through the blood of Christ on the cross ( Hebrews 10:10 ).
2) Of the spirit ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ), which happens in real time and otherwise known as "regeneration" or being born again in the inward man.

The sanctification jn Hebrews 10:29 was prior to that unbelief, was it not?

To me, you're not following the context of the passage, as well as remembering other things He has said about His sheep in other passages.
Christ's sheep cannot be lost ( John 6:39 ).

It's a "hypothetical situation" imposed as a serious warning to a Hebrew believer because of Israel's past history with God.

No it is not. As the correct view, how was he sanctified in Hebrews 10:29?

With the blood of the covenant.

But I have to agree with @Reformed on this one.
Here's the key to Hebrews 10:29:

" of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" ( Hebrews 10:29 ).

Like Hebrews 6:4-6, this is a warning primarily to Hebrew believers.
Both of those passages are hypothetical situations used to warn the Hebrew believer of how seriously God wants them to treat Him.

But he was sanctified. Just to clarify my understanding of Hebrews 10:29.

No, he was not.

Only the saved are sanctified ( made holy in the sight of God ) by the blood of Christ ( Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 5:25-27, Hebrews 10:10-14 ).
There's no way this could be describing a saved individual, given Christ's promises in John... as well as what sanctification does, for whom it was accomplished, and when it was done ( at the cross ).

 

[Dave G]

Not that such a person never existed. 2 Peter 2:1, ". . . But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that *bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. . . ." * 1 John 2:2.

I've read this passage many times in the context of 2 Peter 2, and I clearly see why those who believe in a General Atonement use it as a proof text.
The wording is such that it makes one think that the false teachers were also bought by the Lord.

OK...we could start a whole thread on this verse alone.
I'd prefer not to, at this point.

However, I'd like to point out that many have made the connection with the "them" after "bought", and linked it back to "the people" earlier in the verse.
Therefore, the false teachers were not bought, but do go so far as to deny the Lord that bought the people.

Problem solved?
I think so, but it definitely does cause one to do a double take.
In order to resolve the problem, one has to study the Atonement in-depth, and see who was bought and paid for by the blood of Christ.


It's not an easy thing to develop with Scripture.
But one thing that I think is overlooked, is that those that are bought ( 1 Corinthians 6:20 ), are kept ( 1 Peter 1:5 ).

Either salvation can be lost, or it cannot.
Either those that are bought are kept, or they are not.

If the man in 2 Peter 2:1 was bought by the blood of Christ, then He purchased someone that He could not keep.
As evidenced by 2 Peter 2:21-22, they fell away.

Christ's sheep, whom He has purchased with His own blood ( Acts of the Apostles 20:28 ), cannot fall away and be lost again ( John 6:39 ).
Again, they are kept by the power of God ( 1 Peter 1:5 ).

 

[Dave G]

IOW IF being wholly without merit is the criteria, GOD would therefor choose everyone.

It's not the only criteria.

It's one of several.

 

[mailmandan]

Added note, that individual is not fictional. I agree he was never in Christ. But he was sanctified. Just to clarify my understanding of Hebrews 10:29.

I understand this hypothetical person to be "sanctified" or "set apart" as an active participant in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, yet ends up renouncing his identification with these other believers and tramples under foot the work and the person of Christ himself, which gives evidence that his identification with these believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.

*If the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation, then we have a contradiction in scripture because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14)

The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation. *In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul explained.

So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that do not line up with scripture.

In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people: But WE are not OF THOSE who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

 

[37818]

Sorry numbers you are confused. How can you repent if you do not believe?

LOL. It is impossible to believe anythng not believed prior to changing one's mind to do so. Again, Jesus said, ". . . repent ye, and believe . . . ." -- Mark 1:15, ". . . μετανοειτε και πιστευετε . . . ." ". . . metanoeite kai pisteuete . . . ." Now metanoeite, meta meaning change, noeite meaning one's mind. The Strong's number G3340.

Because of the irregular church baggage of pentance, repentance, I am of the strong opinion term "repent" and "repentance" should never more be used in translation for changing one's mind or changing one's view.

 

[Van]

Yet another utterly bogus thread.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we were chosen (elected) through faith in the truth. Therefore faith comes before our individual election for salvation.

When something happens through something, the through something provides the access to the resulting action. Saved through faith means our faith provided our access to God's saving grace. Chosen through faith means our faith provided the basis of God's conditional election.

 

[HankD]

Amazing... Our differences.

 

[37818]

Yet another utterly bogus thread.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we were chosen (elected) through faith in the truth. Therefore faith comes before our individual election for salvation.

When something happens through something, the through something provides the access to the resulting action. Saved through faith means our faith provided our access to God's saving grace. Chosen through faith means our faith provided the basis of God's conditional election.

". . . Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and . . . ." -- 1 Peter 1:2.

 

[3rdAngel]

LOL. It is impossible to believe anythng not believed prior to changing one's mind to do so. Again, Jesus said, ". . . repent ye, and believe . . . ." -- Mark 1:15, ". . . μετανοειτε και πιστευετε . . . ." ". . . metanoeite kai pisteuete . . . ." Now metanoeite, meta meaning change, noeite meaning one's mind. The Strong's number G3340.

Because of the irregular church baggage of pentance, repentance, I am of the strong opinion term "repent" and "repentance" should never more be used in translation for changing one's mind or changing one's view.

Your post here numbers is not biblical and continues to make no sense and the scripture you provide here does not disagree with what was posted to you earlier...

Here is why...

How can you repent if you first do not believe?

What comes first faith or the Word of God?

If there is no Word there can be no faith because if you do not know you cannot believe.

How can you repent if you do not know what you need to repent of?

We need a knowledge of the truth of God's Word before we can have faith. We need to believe and know what God says before we repent and follow His Word.

If you do not believe you cannot repent because repentance μετανοέω is a change of mind to think differently. The changing of the mind μετανοέω in MARK 1:15 is to "believe the Gospel" (the Word of God) πιστεύω to have faith in the good news; ἐν fixed position to rest and stay in this state; εὐαγγέλιον; good news (the Word of God).

Another words MARK 1:15 is a call to BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's Word. It is the very Word of GOD that JESUS is saying that is God's Word that brings the call to REPENTANCE...

This is why it is written...

ACTS 17:30 IN TIMES OF IGNORANCE (when we do not know) GOD WINKS AT, BUT NOW (when a knowledge of the truth is come) CALLS ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT.

EPHESIANS 1:13 In whom you also trusted, AFTER THAT YOU HEARD THE WORD OF TRUTH, the gospel of your salvation: IN WHOM AFTER THAT YOU BELIEVED, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.

We need to have a KNOWLEDGE of the Word of God BEFORE we can REPENT. If there is no KNOWLEDGE of God's WORD there can be no faith and if there is no faith there can be no repentance..

ROMANS 10:17 FAITH COMES BY HEARING AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[3rdAngel]

Some comments for your consideration provided below. Although I was considering making another thread in relation to this for the detail

I understand this hypothetical person to be "sanctified" or "set apart" as an active participant in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, yet ends up renouncing his identification with these other believers and tramples under foot the work and the person of Christ himself, which gives evidence that his identification with these believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.

Where does it say in the scriptures here that these people were not in the past genuine believers? It doesn't your reading into the scripture something it is not saying. PAUL is addressing "BELIEVERS" putting himself into the WARNING he is giving him by saying in HEBREWS 10:26-27 "IF WE (BELIEVERS) SIN WILLFULLY AFTER WE RECEIVE A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH there remains no more sacrifice for sin, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

*If the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation, then we have a contradiction in scripture because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14) The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation. *In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul explained.

Here is your error. There is no contradiction of the scriptures in HEBREWS 10:29. When read in the light of HEBREWS 10:26-29. The CONTEXT is those who "ONCE HAD A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH" v26 but instead "RETURN TO A LIFE OF KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN". It is to these people who reject God's Word that there remains no more sacrifice for sin because they are counting the "BLOOD OF THE COVENANT (Christs sacrifice for sin) an UNHOLY THING" By returning back to a life of SIN they reject Chrsits sacrifice for their sins and Crucify the LORD afresh. The same WARNINGS are given to BELIEVERS in HEBREWS 6:4-8. Those who are sanctified being refered to in HEBREWS 10:10 is in reference to those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's Word and it's application is "PRESENT TENSE". Those who reject the gift of God's dear son to return to a life of UNREPENTANT SIN to become "UNBELIEVERS" are not sanctified by the "BLOOD OF THE COVENANT v29 because they have rejected a KNOWLEDGE of the truth v26 from which they were "SANTIFIED" v29.

So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that do not line up with scripture.

Here you are also in error. The GREEK word used here does not mean saved so your argument here is a strawman but it does have reference to someone that was set apart and saved. The GREEK word used in HEBREWS 10:29 in CONTEXT with HEBREWS 10:26-28 says..

HEBREWS 10:26-29 [26] For IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER WE RECEIVE A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. [28], He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: [29], OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT SUPPOSE YOU SHALL HE (Those who sin willfully after receiving a knowledge of the truth) BE THOUGHT WORTHY WHO HAS (sinning willfully after receiving a knowledge of the truth) TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT FOR WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED (past tense application) AN UNHOLY THING AND HAS DONE DESPITE THE THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?

Notice v29 "HE" is in reference to the CONTEXT of v26-28 which is to "THOSE WHO SIN WILLFULLY AFTER RECEIVING A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH" v29 is stating those who "RECEIVED AND KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH" and sin willfully...

1. Receive a greater punishment then for have a knowledge of the truth and reject it to live a life of sin
2. By sinning willfully we count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing and reject Chrsits sacrifice.
3. This person past tense "WAS SANCTIFIED" v29 by "RECEIVING A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH" v26

Let's tie this all together now we have looked at the context to the GREEK Word meaning for "SANCTIFIED" as you are mistaken here. The GREEK Word used here in v29 is ἁγιάζω and means; TO MAKE HOLY, that is, (ceremonially) purify or consecrate ; (mentally) to venerate: - HALLOW, BE HOLY, SANCTIFY.

So the summary here is that these people that left the faith "WERE SANCTIFIED" v29 by "RECEIVING A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH" v26. They were "BELIEVERS" that were once made HOLY! Can you see your error here?

In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people: But WE are not OF THOSE who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

You are leaving out the CONTEXT again in v38. HEBREWS 10:39 does not say that those in v26-29 were not "ONCE BELIEVERS". This is already shown that they were (see above). It is true however that they are no longer believers because they have rejected a knowledge of the truth to become "UNBELIEVERS"

Notice the complete summary statement in HEBREWS 10:38-39 which sumarises HEBREWS 10:26-37

HEBREWS 10:38-39 [38], Now the just shall live by faith: but IF ANY MAN SHALL DRAW BACK MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM. [39], But we are not of them who draw back to perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Those who DRAW BACK and depart the faith to a life of known UNREPENTANT SIN v26-37 is the WARNING subject matter being written to "BELIEVERS" being the topic of conversation.

Sorry Mailmandan, you post has no truth in it. Can you see your error here?

Hope this helps.

 

[37818]

How can you repent if you first do not believe?

You really cannot hear? Wow. Again, belief not yet believed is impossible without a change of one's mind first. You need to repent of your unbiblical idea of repentance. You need to change your mind about your unbiblical idea one has to believe before one can change one's mind.

 

[mailmandan]

Faith followed by repentance is a cult teaching. Mormonism and Churches of Christ cults.
So it is you do not know what you are talking about.
Repentance precedes faith.
As Jesus taught, ". . . repent ye, and believe . . . ."
Nowhere in the word of God where both terms, "repentance" and "faith" occur will you ever find any such order as, faith prior to repentance. Nowhere in Holy Scripture. Repentance is a change of mind or view, which must occur prior to changing one's belief.

I studied this over 50 years ago.

Amen! Certain people misunderstand the term "repentance" to simply mean “moral self-reformation” or “completely stop sinning." That is not the Biblical definition of repentance. Repent means to "change your mind." The Bible also tells us that true repentance will result in a change of actions. Acts 26:20 declares, "I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds." This is the fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8), not the essence of repentance (change of mind). Works-salvationists end up confusing the "fruit of repentance" with the "essence of repentance" (and also do the same thing with belief/faith) and end up teaching salvation by works.

Such people often fail to understand that there is a deeper, more substantive aspect of faith which is believing/trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and cannot distinguish between mere "mental assent" belief or assent (James 2:19) from a personal faith that is trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Acts 10:43; 16:31) This also explains why such people (like those in Mormonism and Churches of Christ cults) have so much faith in works for salvation. Their misunderstanding gives rise to the reversal of the scriptural order of repentance and belief/faith in scripture. To the contrary we find:

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. *Notice the order.

Mark 1:15 - ..repent ye, and believe the gospel. *Notice the order.

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. *Notice the order.

 

[Dave G]

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. *Notice the order.

Mark 1:15 - ..repent ye, and believe the gospel. *Notice the order.

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. *Notice the order.

To the Jews, I agree.

The reason I say that is, before the cross the Jews were presented with the Gospel by Jesus Christ and were obligated under the Law of Moses to obey the commands of God.
The commandment to God's chosen earthly nation by the very One who gave them the Law, was...repent and believe.

Two different things that the Lord gave them while He was standing right in front of them.
Does the order matter?
I don't think so.

I think that he was commanding them to do two things, and it didn't matter the order.


Not to throw a wrench into things, notice the order now:

" Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." ( Acts of the Apostles 2:37-38 ).

Belief ( pricked in their heart, what I like to call "conviction" ), followed by repentance and baptism.