Featured He That Overcometh!

yes 'BOGUS' is too strong a word - to find fault means (to quote a cliche) don't throw the baby out with bath water.

I believe most of Van's wonderings about my answers can be found in my BB blatherings from the ghosts of donnybrooks past.

 

No ( 1 Corinthians 1:18, 1 Corinthians 2:14, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4, Romans 8:5-8 ).

Individually, and unconditionally...based on nothing a man has or does.
It's all of grace, and none of works ( Romans 11:5-6, Ephesians 2:8-9 ).

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 does not state that we were chosen because of ( or even through ) faith...it states that the believer was chosen through the belief of the truth...that sanctification of the spirit and belief of the truth accompany God's choice of us to salvation.

That the believer is saved through faith, is found in Ephesians 2:8.

Christ died for His sheep ( Matthew 1:21, John 10:11, John 10:15 ).
If He gave His life for those who would never believe, then His blood accomplished nothing for them in God's eyes.

Since His blood actually accomplished the cleansing and reconciling of a people to God ( Romans 5:1-11, Colossians 1:21-22, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19 ) , and that work was done at the cross ( Colossians 2:13-14 ), then nothing happened for the "goats" who would never believe.
There is no "potential" to be saved for the "non-elect", since they could never meet the conditions God has imposed on men ( to live perfectly according to the Law ), in order to be saved, and there is no "potential" to be saved for the elect, since outside of God's choosing and causing them to approach him ( Psalm 65:4 ), they would have never sought God, either.
Instead, the Lord has determined that Christ would give eternal life only to as many as the Father gave to Him ( John 17:2 ).
No man can come to Christ, unless He was given to Him by His Father ( John 6:65 ).

"Supposedly chosen before they were created"...

They were chosen before they were created ( Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:4-5 ).
That is what is written.
"Foreknowledge" is God "foreknowing: His children...each and every one of them by name, before He created them ( Jeremiah 1:5, Psalms 139:15-16, Isaiah 49:5, Galatians 1:15 ).

Either a person finds great comfort and immense gratitude for having found themselves in the favor of God, or they resist this truth because they feel that it is not "fair" to others.
I'll go with the first one, since we all have sinned, and God decides what is "fair" when it comes to rebellious sinners who hate Him and His ways.


I personally have no trouble giving the Lord all the credit for my salvation, and acknowledging that He did everything necessary for me to enjoy an eternal relationship with the most amazing Friend a man could ever hope to have....that apart from His mercy, I would have never even thought about Him and my offenses towards His holiness.

 

Given the fact that men are biased sinners against the Lord from birth ( Psalms 58:3 ), and hate Him and His Son ( Romans 1:30, John 3:19-20, John 15:18, Proverbs 29:27, Matthew 10:22, 1 John 3:12-23, John 17:14 ), then for God to accomplish the new birth, He must make the first step...by changing the heart that rebels against Him ( Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 36:26, John 3:3 ), and making it soft towards Him and His ways.

Otherwise, there would be no "takers".

After the new birth, we willingly do an "about-face" and listen to God and His words, and recognize them as the truth.
Belief of His every word ( Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4 ) then follows.

I don't believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved", myself.
I subscribe to "IF saved, Always Saved".

"Once Saved" implies that there was a time when God's people were never saved...which is untrue.
His children have always, since the beginning of creation, enjoyed a special place in His mind and in His purposes for them ( Ephesians 2:1-10 ).

My "non-Arminian" / "non-Molinist" / "non-Traditional" / "non-free-will", "non-Calvinist" and Scriptural answers would be as stated above.

They give God all the glory ( instead of reserving any of it to men ) for saving anyone, and completely rule out what men can do, possess or otherwise use to manipulate the Lord into having mercy and compassion on anyone other than the ones He wishes to have mercy and compassion on ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-18 ).

" So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." ( Romans 9:16 ).


As for Hank, he is perfectly capable of articulating his own responses.
I'm fairly confident that he agrees with some of what I have stated, and disagrees with other parts.

But to be sure, you'd have to re-read his responses to the "points" presented, in past threads.

 

Did anyone see a clear yes or no to each of my questions? I didn't either.

To say a person is not a Calvinist, but refuse to say which if any of the TULIP points are bogus, is not edifying.

 

Thanks Dave Gilbert, you have made your Calvinistic position clear.
BTW, none of the verses you cited actually support the positions you claimed.

 

Apparently, you see them one way, while I see them another.

I see that they mean what they say, at face value and in their proper contexts.
I'm not sure what you see, Van.

 

Too bad, I'm a committed Trinitarian Jesus being the INCARNATION of the LOGOS, GOD come in the flesh to save us from our sins. That is all that is necessary for fellowship. Otherwise I'm a mugwump.

 

If you followed Jesus, your yes would mean yes, and your no would mean no. Perhaps others desire to fellowship with people who say no but mean yes.

 

Ya right.

 

You said you were not a Calvinist, but apparently agree with all five points of the TULIP.
Your no meant nothing. Why is it so many post here they are not Calvinist, yet embrace 4 or more points of the TULIP?

 

This is NOT TRUE in my case.
Also one may believe in total depravity but not completely for instance if we are
made in the image of GOD how can we be TOTALLY DEPRAVED? Is the image of God depraved?

so we are totally depraved APART from the image of GOD,

 

It is very true in your case, your no meant nothing. Also it takes a lot of contempt for others to ask them questions, and then refuse to answer questions.

We become overcomers when God puts us in Christ, based on crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:13

 

True, I can be contemptuous especially in debate forums.You have the choice of "ignore" but I hope you can bear with my obnoxiousness.

Me thinks you tailor your arguments against my profile of possible debate defeat.
But, I could be wrong.

 

1) Do spiritually dead lost individuals have the spiritual ability to appropriately respond to the milk of the gospel?

My answer is yes based on 1 Corinthians 3:1-3. Dave Glibert said "No" and cited several verses which did not support the Calvinist position. Here is one of the cited verses:

In those the god of this age has blinded the minds of the unbelieving,
so that the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God,
does not shine into them.

The Calvinist interpretation is that this verse refers to everyone, so that the gospel is hid from everyone.
And of course, this interpretation is bogus. Matthew 13 tells us some are blinded, the first soil, but others can hear and understand the gospel, soils 2, 3 and 4.

Secondly, Calvinists claim, as a result of the fall, everyone suffers from the "T" of the TULIP, total spiritual inability. If this were true, then the god of this age could not blind the minds, they would already be blind. The more you study their doctrine, the more holes you find.

 

Dave, I’m not sure I care how anyone feels they come to Christ as long as they do come to Christ, recognize that they have lived sinful lives and that they have to repent and open the heart to God... the Father, Son and HS.

Now I do recall a sermon by The late Elder D.J. Ward where he stated that the function and order of life is because of God’s choice... that’s the Doctrine of Election which I fervently believe in.

 

I've seen several videos on YouTube with Dennis Ward in them...
I loved his preaching, even though I never got to see him in person when he was alive.

 

Me either. Thank Him for video!

A short favorite of mine.

 

I cited this passage:

" But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them " ( 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 )

Therefore, if anyone believes the Gospel, it is revealed to them by God.
Does this agree with any other Scriptures that say that God has to reveal Himself to someone?

Sure it does:

" All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him]." ( Matthew 11:27 )

The verses in question refer to the lost...not the saved.

Everyone outside of Christ.

 

To me, you are fully within your right to call whatever you want, "bogus".
I call it, "a difference of opinion".

If you look carefully in Matthew 13, only one bears fruit...the rest all "peter out" and never bear fruit.

First of all, what is the "fruit" the Lord is referring to?
Galatians 5:22-23.

Now...which one(s) would you say are saved according to these?

" Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." ( Matthew 7:19 )
" Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit." ( John 15:2 )

1, 2,3, or 4?

Please keep in mind that only one is "bearing fruit" that is pleasing to God.

"They" ( people who believe the word of God when it comes to election, reprobation and a whole lot more ) do claim that everyone is "totally depraved", and I have posted these Scriptures too many times to list.

Those of us that are "Calvinists" ( and, amazingly enough, many of us came to it ourselves simply by reading His word ) all agree on them.

From a certain perspective, I could agree.
But to me, it's not "could not", but a "wouldn't have to".

Men are blind because of the darkness of our hearts ( Romans 1:21, Ephesians 4:18 )...so, even though Satan blinds the minds of the lost and hides the Gospel from them, even with the "blinders" off, we still wouldn't come to Christ on our own ( John 3:19-20 ).

I suppose that depends on who is studying it, doesn't it?

The more I study Scripture, the more I appreciate the fact that His word is both true, and sobering.
There's quite a bit in there that makes me very small and quiet at times...especially reprobation.

But what fills me with joy, is the realization that I am one of His precious children that He gave His Son for, and that I, through no effort of my own, have found myself the recipient of the greatest gift known to man:

Eternal life with a God who loves me, and gave Himself for me.

Can you say that, Van?
I do hope so, sir.

This is my last reply in this thread.

I wish you all well.

 

Why change the subject? 2 Cor. 4:4 does say the minds of "all" unbelievers has been blinded by the god of this age. Your doctrine read that into the text.

If your doctrine were true, then the minds of the unbelieving would already be blinded (total spiritual inability) so the fact at least some were blinded proves your doctrine bogus.

Please do not change the subject again. Your cited verse does not support your bogus doctrine.