When are names written in the Lamb's book of life?

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You have not proved that Christ had no sheep prior to Him having Sheep. That the names of the sheep were not already in existence.

You have not proved the Christ / God accepts imperfect sheep. He didn’t in the OT, why do you think He would in the NT?


Here Christ is presenting that He has sheep prior to the Crucifixion in direct conflict with your view

11I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. ​

See His own presentation in John 19:

1“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. 2But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.

14I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

“I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

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One of the remarkable places in Scriptures that proves that the sheep (perfect in the sight of God) are already selected. Such statement as, “I have other sheep not of this fold...” is one of the early disclosures of the coming assembly called the church.

That Christ knows the Father’s selection of sheep and has given them to Christ along with the very names, puts to silence your view.

 

What about those drawn by Jesus Christ? John wrote;
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Now I already know you don't believe all men are drawn, but can you prove it?
MB

 

Never said folks are not “drawn.”

John 10 states that those drawn into the fold are His sheep.

Now, if others are drawn along because they are “following the crowd” or following what is expected, that does not make them His sheep.

 

Van,
I posted extensively from the principles found in John 10. I even placed in bold those principles.

I stated what you had not done. You haven’t and can not.

Christ used the term Sheep, but one could just as factually insert the word “believers” when he is describing what belongs to Him.

That He factually stated that there are OTHER believers given to h
him by the Father BY NAME) BEFORE they enter the fold, puts your view to a shameful failure.

That you don’t recognize the malarkey and twaddle of your own view isn’t obliging the truth to be also so maligned.

 

explain again how you proved it, i must have missed it

 

It does if they are all drawn by Christ. Where does Christ say they were following the crowed.Who are you quoting? Your self?
MB

 

In what manner is drawn being used in John 12?

When one thinks of “drawn” it can range from caught in a net, to curiosity.

Often folks followed the Christ around out of curiosity. Were they “drawn,” ? Yes, drawn by curiosity

Others confessed Him as their redeemer, were they drawn? Yes, drawn by the Savior.

There are those who present “draw all men” as providing permission to be redeemed to just anyone who out of their own volition decides it is advantageous to follow along.

How unfortunate that some base their whole doctrinal view upon a single Scripture that in context does not support the offer of salvation to everyone, but the authority over who is supreme ruler. And who has the final jurisdiction over eternity.

Read the context of John 12 and see for yourself. If one chooses to consider “drawn” includes every person who ever lived, it is in violation of John 10, 6, 3, and 1.


So, who is drawn for salvation? According to John 10, His sheep, whom the Father has given Him.

The question must then be ask as it pertains to this thread.

Can a lamb owned by someone else, of its own volition determine who will own them? Or is the exchange of ownership beyond the capacity of the lamb’s ability and even comprehension?

Is one labeled as a “my sheep” when as the OP would suggest before a name recorded?

In light of John 10, the name is given to Christ by the Father. This is prior to the sheep hearing the voice of Christ.

“All the Father gives me WILL come to me.” Therefore, the names are already recorded by the Father.

 

Do you hold with Mormons that we existed before physical birth as immortal souls?

 

no, they have it backwards, We are the condemned imprisoned sinners, Mormons think earth will ascend into being like Heaven and that humanity is necessary to Heaven. sorta like Islam and JW's

We are the bad guys of this narrative,
Mormons don't believe you have/are or a soul nor in the Holy Spirit

 

It seems that you avoid the truth of scripture by analyzing it to not contradict your view of it. Christ said if I be lifted up He will draw all men to himself.. He had to be lifted first and at the time He said this, He had not been lifted up. Those following Him at the time were drawn for a multitude of reasons. Yet He wasn't speaking of those men following Him at the time. All men being drawn were not all drawn until He was crucified. This is why Christ died on the cross willingly of Him self. No one took His life He gave it up willingly. This act alone draws men to want to know why He died,and when they find out it should convict them because He died for the world
Before Christ died the Father did draw men to Christ. Yet after His death Christ draws men..All power has been given to the Son of God.
MB.

 

You just proved my point by stating, “This act alone draws ...” but then inserted, “it should convict them because He died for the world.”

The blood was shed for all, but the death and resurrection only benefits the believer. They were not for the whole world. And it is natural curiosity and empathy that draws the ungodly folk’s attention.



Now according to the writing of John, only His sheep distinguish His voice from other flock owners and hirelings.

The picture is that of a holding pen. Sort of like the Fort Worth Stockyards. The owner of the pen opens the door for various shepherds. They drive their sheep out to graze.

Unlike all other shepherds, the Lord calls each lamb by name, he goes before the lambs and leads them. They follow because they recognize His voice.

The point I was making is that the names of the lambs were given by the Father to Christ, BEFORE they were His and he called them. Therefore, the names were preexistent before salvation and already known by the Father. (Predestination, Election).

 

none of your verses show :"enrollment"

 

The atonement requires belief in Christ for it to be applied. The atonement was meant for everyone those who do not believe loose the benefit of it.

I agree with some of this above What I believe you over look is: Just what is it that makes us sheep belonging to Christ. It seems to me Calvinist claim this is election. In my belief it cannot be .because election does not make you His.. Salvation does. Only the saved are His the not saved still belong to Satan.
Salvation makes everything valid. Other wise why are we told to make our election and calling sure?
MB

 

The atonement is truly for everyone, and certainly the OT atonement was to include everyone in the land.

No one is redeemed without the purposed work of God to do three things.
1) purchase that person from the slave market.
2) remove that person from ever being able to be sold again into slavery.
3) adopting that person as a child

Each of those is totally undertaken by the authority of God.

What some desire is to present that the sheep have some say in the matter of to whom they belong.

ALL sheep belong to the enemy of God. God selects from the ALL those to whom He purchases, removes from the market and adopt.

 

What some desire is to present that the sheep have some say in the matter of to whom they belong.

This is where we disagree. Men can and do reject Salvation. it's true that we can't make God save us but God will not save those who do not believe Scripture never says that He does.
MB