When are names written in the Lamb's book of life?

[Van]

LOL, five posts in a roll denying the obvious. They say I did not "prove" the OT book of the living" is not the same as the Lamb's book of life. But I did. Note I asked why was the OT book of the righteous if the righteous were identified as righteous in the book of the living.

Then they point out some translations use book of life for the OT book as if I had not addressed the reason for the translation choice. So deflection.

Then they post as if the fact that Christ existed before creation was in question! But of course, that is not at issue, so more deflection.

Despite all these obfuscation posts, the simple fact remains. The redeemed are enrolled in heaven in the Lamb's book of life when God puts them into Christ. No one was enrolled before they were made perfect. And no one was made perfect before being placed in Christ.

 

[agedman]

​

Despite all these obfuscation posts, the simple fact remains. The redeemed are enrolled in heaven in the Lamb's book of life when God puts them into Christ. No one was enrolled before they were made perfect. And no one was made perfect before being placed in Christ.

You have not proved that Christ had no sheep prior to Him having Sheep. That the names of the sheep were not already in existence.

You have not proved the Christ / God accepts imperfect sheep. He didn’t in the OT, why do you think He would in the NT?


Here Christ is presenting that He has sheep prior to the Crucifixion in direct conflict with your view

11I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.​

See His own presentation in John 19:

1“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. 2But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.

14I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

“I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

​

One of the remarkable places in Scriptures that proves that the sheep (perfect in the sight of God) are already selected. Such statement as, “I have other sheep not of this fold...” is one of the early disclosures of the coming assembly called the church.

That Christ knows the Father’s selection of sheep and has given them to Christ along with the very names, puts to silence your view.

 

[Van]

Lets go over one of the OP passage again:

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, Hebrews 12:22-23 says the spirits enrolled in the general assembly in New Jerusalem have been made perfect. Therefore, they were enrolled after they were placed in Christ. And again, the naysayers deny this obvious truth.

1) Where are we? In the heavenly Jerusalem, where the church of the first born is located made up of the "spirits of the righteous made perfect."

2) What is the status of those spirits? They have been made perfect, thus put in Christ, regenerated, and born anew. These spirits have been enrolled in heaven. Thus they were not enrolled before they were made perfect, before being born anew, before being put in Christ, as part of the bride and body of Christ. OTOH, they have been made alive together with Christ, and therefore belong in the Lamb's book of life.

3) Some claim the spirits might have been enrolled before they became members of the church of the firstborn. But that is an absurd and unnatural interpretation. When people are enrolled in something, they are members of that something, a group, church or whatever.

4) Why have so many objected to this mainstream view of the passage? Either they want to claim the OT book of the living (Psalms 69:28) is the Lamb's book of life (Revelation 3:5, 21:27). or they want to claim names were written in the Lamb's book of life before the foundation of the world, specifically precluded by Revelation 13:8 and 17:8.

 

[MB]

​

You have not proved that Christ had no sheep prior to Him having Sheep. That the names of the sheep were not already in existence.

You have not proved the Christ / God accepts imperfect sheep. He didn’t in the OT, why do you think He would in the NT?


Here Christ is presenting that He has sheep prior to the Crucifixion in direct conflict with your view

11I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.​

See His own presentation in John 19:

1“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. 2But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.

14I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

“I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

​

One of the remarkable places in Scriptures that proves that the sheep (perfect in the sight of God) are already selected. Such statement as, “I have other sheep not of this fold...” is one of the early disclosures of the coming assembly called the church.

That Christ knows the Father’s selection of sheep and has given them to Christ along with the very names, puts to silence your view.

What about those drawn by Jesus Christ? John wrote;
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Now I already know you don't believe all men are drawn, but can you prove it?
MB

 

[Van]

What about those drawn by Jesus Christ? John wrote;
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Now I already know you don't believe all men are drawn, but can you prove it?
MB

Spot on MB.

Consider this piece of malarkey, "You have not proved that Christ had no sheep prior to Him having sheep!!!!!"

All they are doing is posting off topic nonsense to once again run up the number of pages to prevent discussion of actual bible doctrine.

 

[agedman]

What about those drawn by Jesus Christ? John wrote;
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Now I already know you don't believe all men are drawn, but can you prove it?
MB

Never said folks are not “drawn.”

John 10 states that those drawn into the fold are His sheep.

Now, if others are drawn along because they are “following the crowd” or following what is expected, that does not make them His sheep.

 

[agedman]

Spot on MB.

Consider this piece of malarkey, "You have not proved that Christ had no sheep prior to Him having sheep!!!!!"

All they are doing is posting off topic nonsense to once again run up the number of pages to prevent discussion of actual bible doctrine.

Van,
I posted extensively from the principles found in John 10. I even placed in bold those principles.

I stated what you had not done. You haven’t and can not.

Christ used the term Sheep, but one could just as factually insert the word “believers” when he is describing what belongs to Him.

That He factually stated that there are OTHER believers given to h
him by the Father BY NAME) BEFORE they enter the fold, puts your view to a shameful failure.

That you don’t recognize the malarkey and twaddle of your own view isn’t obliging the truth to be also so maligned.

 

[loDebar]

LOL, five posts in a roll denying the obvious. They say I did not "prove" the OT book of the living" is not the same as the Lamb's book of life. But I did. Note I asked why was the OT book of the righteous if the righteous were identified as righteous in the book of the living.

Then they point out some translations use book of life for the OT book as if I had not addressed the reason for the translation choice. So deflection.

Then they post as if the fact that Christ existed before creation was in question! But of course, that is not at issue, so more deflection.

Despite all these obfuscation posts, the simple fact remains. The redeemed are enrolled in heaven in the Lamb's book of life when God puts them into Christ. No one was enrolled before they were made perfect. And no one was made perfect before being placed in Christ.

explain again how you proved it, i must have missed it

 

[MB]

Never said folks are not “drawn.”

John 10 states that those drawn into the fold are His sheep.

Now, if others are drawn along because they are “following the crowd” or following what is expected, that does not make them His sheep.

It does if they are all drawn by Christ. Where does Christ say they were following the crowed.Who are you quoting? Your self?
MB

 

[Van]

explain again how you proved it, i must have missed it

More obfuscation, more endless questions, more denial of the obvious.

 

[agedman]

It does if they are all drawn by Christ. Where does Christ say they were following the crowed.Who are you quoting? Your self?
MB

In what manner is drawn being used in John 12?

When one thinks of “drawn” it can range from caught in a net, to curiosity.

Often folks followed the Christ around out of curiosity. Were they “drawn,” ? Yes, drawn by curiosity

Others confessed Him as their redeemer, were they drawn? Yes, drawn by the Savior.

There are those who present “draw all men” as providing permission to be redeemed to just anyone who out of their own volition decides it is advantageous to follow along.

How unfortunate that some base their whole doctrinal view upon a single Scripture that in context does not support the offer of salvation to everyone, but the authority over who is supreme ruler. And who has the final jurisdiction over eternity.

Read the context of John 12 and see for yourself. If one chooses to consider “drawn” includes every person who ever lived, it is in violation of John 10, 6, 3, and 1.


So, who is drawn for salvation? According to John 10, His sheep, whom the Father has given Him.

The question must then be ask as it pertains to this thread.

Can a lamb owned by someone else, of its own volition determine who will own them? Or is the exchange of ownership beyond the capacity of the lamb’s ability and even comprehension?

Is one labeled as a “my sheep” when as the OP would suggest before a name recorded?

In light of John 10, the name is given to Christ by the Father. This is prior to the sheep hearing the voice of Christ.

“All the Father gives me WILL come to me.” Therefore, the names are already recorded by the Father.

 

[Yeshua1]

nope, show verse or change

let me explain further

Jesus said He dies not judge man (one)
God said All judgement is given to the SON

Yet we are condemned already.

How am I condemned if not as flesh?

Do you hold with Mormons that we existed before physical birth as immortal souls?

 

[loDebar]

Do you hold with Mormons that we existed before physical birth as immortal souls?

no, they have it backwards, We are the condemned imprisoned sinners, Mormons think earth will ascend into being like Heaven and that humanity is necessary to Heaven. sorta like Islam and JW's

We are the bad guys of this narrative,
Mormons don't believe you have/are or a soul nor in the Holy Spirit

 

[MB]

In what manner is drawn being used in John 12?

When one thinks of “drawn” it can range from caught in a net, to curiosity.

Often folks followed the Christ around out of curiosity. Were they “drawn,” ? Yes, drawn by curiosity

Others confessed Him as their redeemer, were they drawn? Yes, drawn by the Savior.

There are those who present “draw all men” as providing permission to be redeemed to just anyone who out of their own volition decides it is advantageous to follow along.

How unfortunate that some base their whole doctrinal view upon a single Scripture that in context does not support the offer of salvation to everyone, but the authority over who is supreme ruler. And who has the final jurisdiction over eternity.

Read the context of John 12 and see for yourself. If one chooses to consider “drawn” includes every person who ever lived, it is in violation of John 10, 6, 3, and 1.


So, who is drawn for salvation? According to John 10, His sheep, whom the Father has given Him.

The question must then be ask as it pertains to this thread.

Can a lamb owned by someone else, of its own volition determine who will own them? Or is the exchange of ownership beyond the capacity of the lamb’s ability and even comprehension?

Is one labeled as a “my sheep” when as the OP would suggest before a name recorded?

In light of John 10, the name is given to Christ by the Father. This is prior to the sheep hearing the voice of Christ.

“All the Father gives me WILL come to me.” Therefore, the names are already recorded by the Father.

It seems that you avoid the truth of scripture by analyzing it to not contradict your view of it. Christ said if I be lifted up He will draw all men to himself.. He had to be lifted first and at the time He said this, He had not been lifted up. Those following Him at the time were drawn for a multitude of reasons. Yet He wasn't speaking of those men following Him at the time. All men being drawn were not all drawn until He was crucified. This is why Christ died on the cross willingly of Him self. No one took His life He gave it up willingly. This act alone draws men to want to know why He died,and when they find out it should convict them because He died for the world
Before Christ died the Father did draw men to Christ. Yet after His death Christ draws men..All power has been given to the Son of God.
MB.

 

[Van]

Returning to the thread topic:

Since the inauguration of the New Covenant, the bible clearly teaches names are entered in the Lamb's book of life when they are spiritually placed in Christ.

Whose names are in the Lamb's book of life? Philippians 4:3 says Paul's fellow workers names are in the "book of life." I believe this reference is to the Lamb's book of life, because they were believers engaged in the struggle to spread the gospel. To argue there are two books of salvation, the unnamed "book of life" and the Lamb's book of life is ludicrous.

Revelation 3:5 once again refers to the "book of life" meaning the Lamb's book of life. To argue that Christ would promise not to erase names from an unnamed book of life rather than His book of life is ludicrous.

Revelation 13:8 refers to names not written in the book of life of the Lamb, and to argue others (the redeemed) were not written in the book is ludicrous. Additionally to argue against making the obvious inference, the names actually written the Lamb's book were written since the foundation of the world is also ludicrous

Revelation 21:27 precludes any other book from being used as the "enrollment in heaven" book because only those in the Lamb's book of life go into heaven.

Thus since only the spirits of the righteous made perfect are enrolled in heaven, names are entered in the Lamb's book of life when they are spiritually placed in Christ and made perfect which occurs during their lifetime, after their faith is credited as righteousness and they are transferred into the kingdom of His Son.

 

[agedman]

It seems that you avoid the truth of scripture by analyzing it to not contradict your view of it. Christ said if I be lifted up He will draw all men to himself.. He had to be lifted first and at the time He said this, He had not been lifted up. Those following Him at the time were drawn for a multitude of reasons. Yet He wasn't speaking of those men following Him at the time. All men being drawn were not all drawn until He was crucified. This is why Christ died on the cross willingly of Him self. No one took His life He gave it up willingly. This act alone draws men to want to know why He died,and when they find out it should convict them because He died for the world
Before Christ died the Father did draw men to Christ. Yet after His death Christ draws men..All power has been given to the Son of God.
MB.

You just proved my point by stating, “This act alone draws ...” but then inserted, “it should convict them because He died for the world.”

The blood was shed for all, but the death and resurrection only benefits the believer. They were not for the whole world. And it is natural curiosity and empathy that draws the ungodly folk’s attention.



Now according to the writing of John, only His sheep distinguish His voice from other flock owners and hirelings.

The picture is that of a holding pen. Sort of like the Fort Worth Stockyards. The owner of the pen opens the door for various shepherds. They drive their sheep out to graze.

Unlike all other shepherds, the Lord calls each lamb by name, he goes before the lambs and leads them. They follow because they recognize His voice.

The point I was making is that the names of the lambs were given by the Father to Christ, BEFORE they were His and he called them. Therefore, the names were preexistent before salvation and already known by the Father. (Predestination, Election).

 

[loDebar]

Returning to the thread topic:

Since the inauguration of the New Covenant, the bible clearly teaches names are entered in the Lamb's book of life when they are spiritually placed in Christ.

Whose names are in the Lamb's book of life? Philippians 4:3 says Paul's fellow workers names are in the "book of life." I believe this reference is to the Lamb's book of life, because they were believers engaged in the struggle to spread the gospel. To argue there are two books of salvation, the unnamed "book of life" and the Lamb's book of life is ludicrous.

Revelation 3:5 once again refers to the "book of life" meaning the Lamb's book of life. To argue that Christ would promise not to erase names from an unnamed book of life rather than His book of life is ludicrous.

Revelation 13:8 refers to names not written in the book of life of the Lamb, and to argue others (the redeemed) were not written in the book is ludicrous. Additionally to argue against making the obvious inference, the names actually written the Lamb's book were written since the foundation of the world is also ludicrous

Revelation 21:27 precludes any other book from being used as the "enrollment in heaven" book because only those in the Lamb's book of life go into heaven.

Thus since only the spirits of the righteous made perfect are enrolled in heaven, names are entered in the Lamb's book of life when they are spiritually placed in Christ and made perfect which occurs during their lifetime, after their faith is credited as righteousness and they are transferred into the kingdom of His Son.

none of your verses show :"enrollment"

 

[MB]

You just proved my point by stating, “This act alone draws ...” but then inserted, “it should convict them because He died for the world.”

The blood was shed for all, but the death and resurrection only benefits the believer. They were not for the whole world. And it is natural curiosity and empathy that draws the ungodly folk’s attention.

The atonement requires belief in Christ for it to be applied. The atonement was meant for everyone those who do not believe loose the benefit of it.

Now according to the writing of John, only His sheep distinguish His voice from other flock owners and hirelings.

The picture is that of a holding pen. Sort of like the Fort Worth Stockyards. The owner of the pen opens the door for various shepherds. They drive their sheep out to graze.

Unlike all other shepherds, the Lord calls each lamb by name, he goes before the lambs and leads them. They follow because they recognize His voice.

The point I was making is that the names of the lambs were given by the Father to Christ, BEFORE they were His and he called them. Therefore, the names were preexistent before salvation and already known by the Father. (Predestination, Election).

I agree with some of this above What I believe you over look is: Just what is it that makes us sheep belonging to Christ. It seems to me Calvinist claim this is election. In my belief it cannot be .because election does not make you His.. Salvation does. Only the saved are His the not saved still belong to Satan.
Salvation makes everything valid. Other wise why are we told to make our election and calling sure?
MB

 

[agedman]

The atonement requires belief in Christ for it to be applied. The atonement was meant for everyone those who do not believe loose the benefit of it.

The atonement is truly for everyone, and certainly the OT atonement was to include everyone in the land.

I agree with some of this above What I believe you over look is: Just what is it that makes us sheep belonging to Christ. It seems to me Calvinist claim this is election. In my belief it cannot be .because election does not make you His.. Salvation does. Only the saved are His the not saved still belong to Satan.
Salvation makes everything valid. Other wise why are we told to make our election and calling sure?
MB

No one is redeemed without the purposed work of God to do three things.
1) purchase that person from the slave market.
2) remove that person from ever being able to be sold again into slavery.
3) adopting that person as a child

Each of those is totally undertaken by the authority of God.

What some desire is to present that the sheep have some say in the matter of to whom they belong.

ALL sheep belong to the enemy of God. God selects from the ALL those to whom He purchases, removes from the market and adopt.

 

[MB]

The atonement is truly for everyone, and certainly the OT atonement was to include everyone in the land.



No one is redeemed without the purposed work of God to do three things.
1) purchase that person from the slave market.
2) remove that person from ever being able to be sold again into slavery.
3) adopting that person as a child

Each of those is totally undertaken by the authority of God.

What some desire is to present that the sheep have some say in the matter of to whom they belong.

ALL sheep belong to the enemy of God. God selects from the ALL those to whom He purchases, removes from the market and adopt.

This is where we disagree. Men can and do reject Salvation. it's true that we can't make God save us but God will not save those who do not believe Scripture never says that He does.
MB