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When Does God Send People Strong Delusions To Believe Lies?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by 3rdAngel, Oct 6, 2019.

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  1. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Active Member

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    This is speaking about Israel as a whole (hence that generation in Hebrews) yet not all of the Israelites were saved in the first place. Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that at one time the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

    In Acts 7:51, we read - "You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! (not descriptive of genuine believers) You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.

    Repentance precedes faith and are two sides to the same coin in obtaining salvation. Those who repent and place their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation confess/speak the same/acknowledge/agree with God's perspective about their sins and have a settled recognition and acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness.

    Those who make a practice of sin/continue in sin as a willful, habitual lifestyle demonstrate that they are not born of God. (1 John 3:9-10) "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit" is not a warning about losing salvation, hence "sealed by the Holy Spirit unto/for the day of redemption." Yet it's still an exhortation to not do it.

    Yet "your version" of believing and following God's Word amounts to salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works." You continue to preach ANOTHER gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9)
     
    #61 Danthemailman, Oct 22, 2019
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  2. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Active Member

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    It's you who twists the scriptures in order to give them a different meaning in an effort to try and force them to "conform" to your biased church doctrine. I harmonize scripture with scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine.

    You continue to confuse "descriptive" passages of scripture with "prescriptive" passages of scripture and you also fail to properly harmonize scripture with scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine. The end result is salvation by works and temporary life instead of eternal life. You can continue to scripture bomb and twist the scriptures all you want, but you are not fooling me. Do you even understand what it means to "keep" (Greek word tereo) guard, observe, watch over his commandments? It doesn't mean obtain or maintain salvation based on the merits of perfectly obeying the 10 commandments 100% of the time from the Old Testament (attached to all the rules and regulations, including being put to death) under the old covenant (with a heavy emphasis on obeying the 4th commandment).
     
    #62 Danthemailman, Oct 22, 2019
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  3. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Active Member

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    ALL of the false religions and cults that claim to be Christian would certainly agree with you and that does not concern you? It certainly raises a red flag for me. God's saints are preserved forever (Psalm 37:28) yet you say otherwise. Jesus' sheep are given eternal life, shall never perish or be snatched from His hand (John 10:27-28) yet you say otherwise. Believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto/for the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30) yet you say otherwise. And whom God justifies, these He also glorifies (Romans 8:30) yet you say otherwise.

    Salvation is not probation.
    Eternal life is not temporary life.
    Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.
     
    #63 Danthemailman, Oct 22, 2019
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  4. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Active Member

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    False. You seem to be naive to the fact that even though these letters in the Bible are written to believers, not everyone in a group of professing believers truly is a believer. As I previously stated, in Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is a matter of PRACTICE. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9). In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people: But WE are not of THOSE who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.


    If the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation as you teach, then we have a contradiction because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14) The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a saved believer, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation.

    *In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" / "set apart" / "treated as holy" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart" "made holy" or "treated as holy." If the word "sanctified" simply meant "saved," then you would have to say that the 7th day was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the vessel and the bread were saved (1 Samuel 21:5) the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) along with other scripture in which the word sanctified does not mean saved.
     
    #64 Danthemailman, Oct 22, 2019
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  5. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Active Member

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    Nice try, yet as I already mentioned, I've heard three different interpretations for Hebrews 6:4-6 (hypothetical view, lost salvation view, never truly saved view) but am not convinced that it teaches a really "saved" person really "lost their salvation." NOWHERE does the Bible use the specific words "lose or lost salvation." According to the hypothetical interpretation, the key word in the passage is "IF." The writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement: "IF a Christian were to fall away, with the point being that it would be impossible (IF a Christian were to fall away) to renew them again to repentance. That’s because Christ died once for sin and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all. The passage, therefore, presents an argument based on a false premise that a true Christian can fall away and follows it to its senseless conclusion that Jesus would have to be sacrificed again and again.

    In regards to the never saved view, once enlightened means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus as the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject this light.

    In reference to partakers of the Holy Spirit, this describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an enterprise or undertaking. It speaks of those who are participators. Now metochos is used elsewhere in Hebrews 3:14 (For we have become partakers of Christ) and thus partakers of the Holy Spirit "at first glance" would appear to be support that true believers are being addressed in Hebrews 6, yet there are other ministries of the Holy Spirit that precede the receiving of the gift of the Holy Spirit. An individual may become a sharer in or partaker of the Holy Spirit, in regards to His pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin, righteousness and judgment to come by temporarily responding to His drawing power intended to lead unbelievers to faith in Christ. Yet notice that the writer of Hebrews does not state that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise," which is the believers guarantee of future inheritance."

    In regards to tasted of the heavenly gift, the good word of God and the power of the world to come, they had tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of the character and quality of what was tasted, yet they still turned away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept the thing that is tasted. The same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." Do we merely "taste" into one Spirit or drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13). :)

    In regards to "fall away," I find it interesting that this term was used by Jesus of His 11 disciples at the time of His arrest. The disciples deserted Jesus as was predicted and Peter obviously denied Jesus three times. They were said to "fall away." Matthew 26:31 - Then Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away because of Me this night, for it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP OF THE FLOCK SHALL BE SCATTERED.' 32 "But after I have been raised, I will go ahead of you to Galilee." 33 But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away." Obviously, this was not a loss of salvation. For a righteous man may fall seven times AND rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity. (Proverbs 24:16) The wicked fall away permanently (from among us) but were never saved. (1 John 2:19)

    In regards to renewing themselves to repentance, apparently the original repentance was merely outward and was not accompanied by saving faith.

    In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor, we see that those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. In other metaphors in scripture, we see that good fruit is a sign of true spiritual life and a lack of fruit is a sign of false believers (for example - Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35). *Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (calls them BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU.Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away do not accompany salvation.

    It's generally stated by those who believe salvation can be lost that you can get it back again. If the writer of Hebrews was truly teaching that a really "saved," person really "lost their salvation" then why didn't he simply say, "For it is impossible for those who were once born again or saved, if they fall away, to renew them again to salvation? Why is it that we never find the words "lost or lose your salvation" in the Bible? *That would certainly settle the issue for me. ;)
     
    #65 Danthemailman, Oct 22, 2019
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  6. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Your only repeating yourself here Dan. As shown through the scripture earlier there is no such thing as truly believe. You either hear and "BELIEVE AND FOLLOW" Gods Word or you do not hear and believe and follow Gods Word *JOHN 10:1-10; JOHN 10:26-27. "BELIEVE" is always present tense aroist the meaning is "BELIEVING" or continuing to "BELIEVE".

    πιστεύω pisteuō From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit ; by implication to entrust (especially one's spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with once again "present tense" aorist to "BELIEVING" of "CONTINUING" to believe or ongoing faith. These promises are "CONDITIONAL" for receiving and keeping God's Spirit with us. God's Spirit stays with those who are "BELIEVING" and continue to believe and follow God's Word who are His Sheep *JOHN 10:1-10; JOHN 10:26-27.

    According to the scriptures as shown earlier which you ignore Gods Word gives "WARNINGS" written to "BELIEVERS" not to "FALL AWAY" and "DEPART THE FAITH" in HEBREW 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39. A detailed scripture proof breakdown and analysis is provided in post # 56 linked showing that these "WARNINGS" to "BELIEVERS" not to "FALL AWAY" and "DEPART THE FAITH" in HEBREW 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39 are references to those who were "ONCE BELIEVERS".

    Your response...
    Once again there is no such thing as genuine believers in Gods Word. There is only "BELIEVERS" or "UNBELIEVERS" just the same as if we do not "CONTINUE BELIEVING" and "ENDURING TEMPTATION TO THE END" *JAMES 1:12 we can become "UNBELIEVERS" as demonstrated in HEBREW 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39 which are references to those who were "ONCE BELIEVERS". Full scripture proof breakdown and analysis is provided in post # 56 link . Ignoring Gods Word does not make it dissappear. Receive Gods Word and be blessed Dan as these scriptures show why your in error.

    Receive Gods Word and be blessed
     
    #66 3rdAngel, Oct 22, 2019
  7. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    According to Gods Word it is written; My little children, these things write I to you, that you sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous 1 JOHN 2:1 and again If we confess our sins he id faithful and just to "FORGIVE" our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness *1 JOHN 1:9. These scriptures are in reference to those who sin and fall but in deep sorrow for their sins repent and return to God. These scriptures are in direct "CONTRAST" to HEBREW 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39 which are references to those who were "ONCE BELIEVERS" but "FALL AWAY" and "DEPART THE FAITH" to return to a life of "KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN". Sorry Dan what your posting here is not relevant to what you are quoting from.

    Your response...

    Now who is making strawman arguments now that no one is talking about? Where did I ever post or say anywhere that once we grieve Gods Spirit we become unsealed? However all those who reject Gods Word when he gives us a "KNOWLEDGE" of the truth and "WILLFULLY CONTINUE IN KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN" do despite to the "SPIRIT OF GRACE AND COUNT THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT AN UNHOLY THING" *HEBREWS 10:26-29; ACTS 17:30-31 both GRIEVE and QUENCH (put out Gods Spirit *EPESIANS 4:30; 1THESSALONIANS 5:19.

    For your interest though the GREEK word used for "SEALED" is not the same as our english word. SEALED in the GREEK is σφραγίζω From G4973; to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security or preservation (literally or figuratively); by implication to keep secret, to attest: - (set a, set to) seal up, stop.

    The scrpture application is in reference to those who are "BELIEVERS AND FOLLOWING" present tense application. It is not in reference to those who were "ONCE BELIEVERS" but "FALL AWAY" and "DEPART THE FAITH" to return to a life of "KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN" as shown in HEBREW 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39 and shown in post # 56 link. The point being made here in reference to being sealed with Gods Spirit is "CONDITIONAL" on "BELIEVERS AND FOLLOWING" Gods Word present tense. If we are no longer "BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING" Gods Word we have become "UNBELIEVERS" and as such "GRIEVE AND QUENCH" (put out) Gods Spirit so that it will depart us *1THESSALONIANS 5:19.

    Your response...

    Your discussing thing no one is talking about again and repeating yourself again brother. We are discussing HEBREWS 10:26-39 and HEBREWS 6:4-8 and shown in post # 56 link which is a "WARNING" to "BELIEVERS" not to "DRAW BACK; FALL AWAY" and "DEPART THE FAITH". We are not talking about those who occasionally sin; repent; confess and return to God *1 JOHN 1:9; 1 JOHN 2:1. God does not "FORSAKE HIS SAINTS" but the point your missing here is that God's SAINTS can "FORSAKE" God *HEBREW 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39 and shown in post # 56 link, as God's "SAINTS" are defined in God's Word as all those who hear God's Voice (the Word) and follow him *JOHN 10:26-27. This is present tense application. If we do not believe and follow Gods Word then we are not God's saints.

    REVELATION 14:12 [12], Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

    REVELATION 22:14
    [14], Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    Your response...
    Once again the application of EPHESIANS 4:30 is is a "WARNING" to "BELIEVERS" not "UNBELIEVERS" or those who were "ONCE BELIEVERS" but "FALL AWAY" and "DEPART THE FAITH" to return to a life of "KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN" as shown in HEBREW 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39 and shown in post # 56 link.

    Hope this helps
     
    #67 3rdAngel, Oct 22, 2019
  8. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Your response...
    You are missing the point here Dan. These scriptures were simply posted to demonstrate and provide example as to how we "GRIEVE GOD'S SPIRIT" nothing more which is by "UNBELIEF" and sin (not following). GOD'S ISRAEL in th new covenant are all those who "BELIEVE AND FOLLOW" God's Word. Gentiles are now grafted in *ROMANS 11:13-27.

    Once again your missing the point being made. I am not applying these scriptures to "BELIEVERS" simply providing scriptures to demonstrate how God's Spirit id GRIEVED or QUENCHED!

    Not really Dan, these are simply your words denying Gods Word. Your words say "your version" of believing and following God's Word amounts to salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works." Then there is Gods Word (not mine) that says " My sheep hear my voice (the Word), and I know them, and they follow me *JOHN 10:27; MATTHEW 7:24-27. I know who I believe and follow and it is not you. Another Gospel is one not found in Gods Word. You have only been provided God's Word and you do not believe. Your words deny God's so your argument is with God not me.
     
    #68 3rdAngel, Oct 22, 2019
  9. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    RUBBISH! You say with your words "twisting scripture" your claims are simply your own words and accusation without any proof. When I said to you what you were saying in a passage was twisting scripture these claims were proven true by showing what you said then simply shaying what the scripture said. This demonstrated that the scriptures were saying what you were not saying.

    You state only those who are truly saved endue. This is not biblical and is twisting the scripture to say something that they are not. Than we have God's WORD (not mine) that says; JAMES 1:12 Blessed is the man that ENDURES TEMPTATION: FOR WHEN HE IS TRIED HE SHALL RECEIVE THE CROWN OF LIFE, which the Lord has promised to them that love him. Those that love JESUS keep his Commandments *JOHN 14:15; REVELATION 14:12; REVELATION 22:14. God's Salvation is "CONDITIONAL" on BELIEVING and FOLLOWING his Word. Those who "ONCE BELIEVED AND FOLLOWED GOD'S WORD" Yesterday but no longer believe and follow God's Word today have become "UNBELIEVERS" and no longer receive God's promises *HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-39.

    Your words     were proven untrue with Gods Word as shown above, and Gods Word is not mine but Gods so your argument is with God not me.

    WRONG! It is you who is confused dear brother as shown in the posts and scrpyures you close your eyes and ears to. Your trying (not very well) to take scripture and my words as shown above and in previous posts, to try to argue somethig they do not say or are talking about as shown in the posts and scriptures provided to you (strawman alert).

    RUBBISH! Dan these are only more of your words. Your words are not Gods Word but yours. You have only been provided Gods Word which are not my words but God's Word. I share Gods Word with you because only Gods Word is true and we should believe and follow it *ROMANS 3:4. He (the Word) must increase and we must decrease *JOHN 3:30. The Words that I share wth you they are SPIRIT and they are life but you do not believe or hear His Voice because you seek to follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God over the Word of God * MATTHEW 15:3-9'

    Here you are again making claims and accusation and arguments that are simply your words that are not Gods Word but yours (strawman) that have no truth in them. I have posted many times what I believe directly to you in relation to your claims here so there is really no excuse for you Dan bearing false witness to things I have never said or believe. I will leave that between you and God.

    We are only saved only by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not by works lest any man should boast *EPHESIANS 2:8-9. OBEDIENCE to God's Word is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD by faith. We are all sinners in need of a Saviour and God's salvation to save us from our sins. Salvation is from sin (breaking any one of God’s 10 Commandments). Salvation is not that of the false gospel of "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED" that teaches we can to continue in sin and still receive God's salvation and his promises *ROMANS 6:1-23; JOHN 8:31-36; 1 JOHN 2:1-4; 1 JOHN 3:3-10.

    Those who continue in known unrepentant sin do not know God and need to be Born again into the NEW COVENANT promise to love *HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 13:8-10; JOHN 3:3-8; 1 JOHN 3:3-10. This is God's work in us and a part of the NEW COVENANT promise of a new heart to love *HEBREWS 8:10-12; PHILIPPIANS 2:13. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50 and if we sin willfully after we recieve a knowledge of the truth there remains no sacrifice for sin and a fearful looking forward to of the judgment to come *HEBREWS 10:26-39.

    I believe God's Word and Gods Word is not my word but Gods. JESUS says you shall know them by their fruits JOHN 15:1-10. What are your fruits dear brother when God gives you a knowledge of the truth showing you through the scripyures alone that there is no scripture that says Gods 4th commandment Sabbath has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day? But you choose to turn away from the pure Word of God putting your fingers in your ears in order to follow the teaching and traditions oh men that break the commandments of God in favor of working on Gods Holy day. I can understand why you will not address the content of my post that are only provided and sharded with you in love on HEBREWS 10:26-39; HEBREWS 6:4-8.

    I know Dan, Gods Spirit is pleading with you but you close your eyes to see and your ears to hear because working on Gods 4th commandment is more important to you than being blessed to receive Gods Word. SIN is the transgression of GOD'S LAW and if anyone CONTINUES in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN; God's WORD says they will DIE and not ENTER THE KINGDOM of HEAVEN because they have rejected the GIFT of God's dear son (Romans 6:23; Hebrews 10:26-27; 6:4-8; Matthew 7:12-23)

    1 JOHN 2:3-4 [3], And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4], He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    Do you love Jesus Dan? JESUS says "IF you love me keep my commandments *JOHN 14:15

    May you reveive Gods Word and be blessed.[/QUOTE]
     
    #69 3rdAngel, Oct 22, 2019
  10. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    The RED FLAG for me is when people try to share man made teachings and traditions that lead others away from God's Word to follow the teachings and traditiond of men that break the commandments of God because accordind to Gods Word those who do these things are not following God.

    None of this is difficult Dan. Every one of the scriptures you have provided (without exception) is a reference only to those who "BELIEVE AND FOLLOW" Gods Word!

    They are not a reference to those who "ONCE BELIEVED AND FOLLOWED" Gods Word yesterday but today choose to "FALL AWAY" and "DEPART THE FAITH" in HEBREW 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39. These "WARNINGS" to "BELIEVERS" not to "FALL AWAY" and "DEPART THE FAITH" in HEBREW 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39 are references to those who were "ONCE BELIEVERS" and show that the false teachings of "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED" is a "FALSE GOSPEL" that has its origin from the father of lies first preached in the Garden of Edan to Eve *GENISIS 2:1-3. Thid id the false Gospel that will give you a form of Godliness bur no power thereof to save you from your sins. 2 TIMOTHY 3:5. Our salvation is only found in Gods Word *JOHN 8:31-36; GALATIANS 5:16; ROMANS 8:1-4; HEBREWS 8:10-12.

    All of Gods promises from GENESIS to REVELATION and Gods salvation is "CONDITIONAL" on "BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING" Gods Word! *JOHN 10:1-10; JOHN 10:26-27. Gods salvation is from sin not to continue in it *JOHN 8:31-36. This is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:6-10; 1 JOHN 2:3-4; REVELATION 12:17; REVELATION 14:12; REVELATION 22:14

    Gods sheep hear His Voice (the Word of God) and follow him.
     
    #70 3rdAngel, Oct 22, 2019
  11. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Your response...
    Now Dan you make a claim here of "false" but then go on to discuss things no one is talking about without adderssing anything in the post you are quoting from (Strawman alert). Where did I ever stated in your words that "everyone in a group of professing believers truly is a believer". You make these claims brother of things I have never said then try to build your whole argument around things that are not being said in order not to discuss the scriptures and the content in the posts you are quoting from. Strawman much? For example again where did I ever say that HEBREWS 10:26-39 is not in reference to willful known repentant sin when I have only ever stated this in my posts? If I have never said such thing Dan why are you pretending that I have? All you are doing here is avoiding addressing the scriptures and content in the posts you are quoting from that show why you are in error.

    Your response...
    There is no "CONTRADICTION" and it is not hard Dan. Prayerfully ask Gods guidence while you read the scrptures and consider both within scripture and chapter "CONTEXT" that your not considering. HEBREWS 10:10 is in reference to the "CONTEXT" of HEBREWS 10:1-9 which is comparing "SHADOW" laws in the Levitical priesthood in sin offerings of the old Covenant that have their fulfillment in Christs great sacrifice on the cross once and for all for our sins v10.

    It is perfected for all time because no other sacrifices are now required v14 for sin offerings. [11], And every priest stands daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: [12], But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; [13], From now on expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. [14], For by one offering he has perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    Their you go when you add the context back no other sacrifices are required for sin; all the sin offerings pointed to and are fulfilled in JESUS *JOHN 1:29.

    v14    , For by one offering he has perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Is in reference to Christ perfect sacrifice to take away sin and Gods new covenant promise to write His Law in our hearts in v15-18 so we can walk in his ways and follow him *JOHN 14:15.

    Those who are sanctified "forever" are santified (made right with God; Holy) by one offering forever, meaning no more animal sacrifices are required for sanctification (to be made right with God; Holy).

    [16], This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, said the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; [17], And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.[18], Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

    There you have it. Out with the old and in with the new, no more sin offerings and Gods promise to remember our sins no more if we "BELIEVE and FOLLOW" God's Word.

    Gods promises are all "CONDITIONAL" on "BELIEVING and FOLLOWING" God's Word.

    The scriptures in v14 are not saying that we are santified forever if we "ONCE BELIEVED AND FOLLOWED" Gods Word yesterday but today choose to "FALL AWAY" and "DEPART THE FAITH" as shown in HEBREWS 10:26-39. These "WARNINGS" to "BELIEVERS" not to "FALL AWAY" and "DEPART THE FAITH" are references to "BELIEVERS" and WARNINGS that show what happens to those who were "ONCE BELIEVERS" and depart the faith to become "UNBELIEVERS"
     
    #71 3rdAngel, Oct 22, 2019
  12. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Now Dan if you stopped with your cut and paste and read the post that has been provided to you than you would see why you are in error here. What you have posted here is not true at all and your trying to read into the scriptured somrthing they are not saying. As shown in the very post and scrptures you are posting from that you ignore;

    HEBREWS 10:29 in reference to those who sin willfully after receiving a knowledge of the truth says [29], Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, with which he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite to the Spirit of grace?

    The GREEK word used here for "SANCTIFIED" is ἁγιάζω hagiazō From G40; means to make holy, that is, (ceremonially) purify or consecrate ; (mentally) to venerate: - hallow, be holy, sanctify.

    This word used here has nothing to to with being set apart except to be holy. The reference being made here is that these person was "ONCE HOLY" by believing and following God's WORD but departed the faith *HEBREWS 10:26-39.

    Dan, not a single scripture example you provide here supports what you claim here in regards to HEBREWS 10:29. Your struggling with this one a lot aren't you brother? Something to pray about. The context of 1 Corinthians 7:14 is in reference to the BELIEVING wife or husband making holy the unbelieving because they are "one flesh". It is not saying "unbelievers" are set apart. Then you try to move away from the GREEK word meaning which do not mean "set apart" to the HEBREW word meaning that is applied to different scripture context and application. All you have provided here brother is creative writing in order to deny God's Word.

    May you receive God's Word and be blessed
     
    #72 3rdAngel, Oct 22, 2019
  13. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Well that is not true Dan and here is why. All you have provided here are your words that deny Gods Word when it is God's Word (not mine) that "WARNS" BELIEVERS not to "FALL AWAY" and "DEPART THE FAITH" in HEBREW 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39 These scrpyures show that these "WARNINGS" to "BELIEVERS" not to "FALL AWAY" and "DEPART THE FAITH" in HEBREW 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39 are references to those who were "ONCE BELIEVERS" that departed the faith to live a life of known unrepentant sin as stated in HEBREWS 10:26 "For if we (believers) sin willfully after we (believers) receive a knowledge of the truth there remains no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of judgement to come.

    This is consistant with HEBREWS 10:29-31 that identifies those who were once believers and departed the faith without repentance as losing their salvation. v29, Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, with which he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite to the Spirit of grace? v30, For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. v31, It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    The scriptures do not say here in these "WARNINGS" anywhere that these people were not saved to begin with. PAUL adds himself into the same "WARNING" here which is being applied to "ALL BELIEVERS" when he states " if we (believers) sin willfully after we (believers) receive a knowledge of the truth there remains no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of judgement to come v26.

    These writing are also consistent with what PAUL writes earlier in HEBREWS 6:4-8 when he shows that the application of these WARNINGS is to BELIEVERS to those who were "ONCE GENUINE BELIEVERS".

    As shown earlier in the scrptures you ignore here in defining subject matter and topic of conversation we read that these "ONCE GENUINE BELIEVERS" are defined as..

    HEBREWS 6:4-8 ...
    1. ONCE enlightened; HEBREWS 6:4
    2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift; HEBREWS 6:4
    3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; HEBREWS 6:4
    4. Having tasted of the good Word of God; HEBREWS 6:5
    5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come
    6. THEY (BELIEVERS) FALL AWAY; HEBREWS 6:6
    7. THEY (BELIEVERS) renew themselves to repentance; HEBREWS 6:6
    8. THEY (BELIEVERS) by their sins crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame; HEBREWS 6:6

    Then in HEBREWS 10:26-39 ...

    1. WE (BELIEVERS) return back to a life of known unrepentant SIN; HEBREWS 10:26
    2. WE (BELIEVERS) being those who have received a knowledge of the truth; HEBREWS 10:26
    3. WE (BELIEVERS) will receive the judgments of God; HEBREWS 10:27
    4. WE (BELIEVERS) will receive a greater punishment for returning to a life of known unrepentant sin because we have receved a knowledge of the truth and turned away from it; HEBREWS 10:29
    5. WE (BELIEVERS) by returning back to known unrepentant sin after we receive a knowledge of the truth we count the blood of the covenant an UNHOLY thing and do despite to the Spirit of Grace; HEBREWS 10:29
    6. WE (BELIEVERS) are warned not to CAST AWAY our confidence which has great reward; HEBREWS 10:35
    7. WE (BELIEVERS) receive God's promise after we do God's will; HEBREWS 10:36
    8. WE (BELIEVERS) are WARNED NOT TO DRAW BACK INTO UNBELIEF; HEBREWS 10:38

    Sorry Dan as demonstrated above these are Gods Word not mine and they do indeed disagree with you. The rest of your post here is only your words trying to explain away Gods Word so not really relavant to this conversation.

    These are "WARNINGS" from God's Word and it is God's Word alone that says that these people were "BELIEVERS" that departed the faith to return to a life of known unrepentant sin showing indeed that someone who was "ONCE A BELIEVER" can lose their salvation. God's salvation and all of God's promises are always "CONDITIONAL" on "BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's Word in the "PRESENT TENSE" *JOHN 3:15-21. If we do not believe and follow God's Word we come under "CONDEMNATION" because salvation is by faith in God's Word *JOHN 3:18.

    This is different to PROVERBS 24:16 which is talking about a "RIGHTEOUSS MAN" not an "UNRIGHTEOUSS MAN" which is being spoken of in HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39 who has "FALLEN AWAY" and has "DRAWN BACK" by rejecting the faith to live a life of known "UNREPENTANT SIN"

    Sorry my friend there is no such thing as "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED" this is a false gospel and one that has its origin from the father of lies first preached to Eve in the Garden of Eden *GENESIS 3:1-5. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it. Salvation is "CONDITIONAL" on BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's Word. If you do not believe and follow God's Word to the end than you do not have salvation *HEBREWS 3:14; HEBREWS 10:38; HEBREWS 12:25-27; 2 PETER 2:20; HEBREWS 3:6-8; HEBREWS 2:3; COLOSSIANS 1:23; JAMES 1:12; MATTHEW 24:13; MARK 13:13; 2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-3; 1 TIMOTHY 4:1.

    Now dear brother, unlike you, I have not made claims and accusations here with my words saying you are in error. All your claims, accusations, arguments and scriptures have been examined and you have been provided God's Word alone showing why you are in error here. My pyayer is that you may receive it in the Spirit that it has been given (love) and only as a help to you. Ignoring God's Word does not make it dissappear.
     
    #73 3rdAngel, Oct 22, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus stated that ALL and EVERYONE that the father gave to Him to get saved would be saved and forever secured, NONE to get lost again. Was Jesus wrong?
     
    #74 Yeshua1, Oct 22, 2019
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  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Easy enough, how do hell bound sinners whose very nature is to rebel against and hate God all of sudden decide to change their minds about God on their own?
     
    #75 Yeshua1, Oct 22, 2019
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  16. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Those who the father gives to JESUS are only those who "BELIEVE AND FOLLOW" Gods Word to the end *JOHN 10:1-10; 26-27; JAMES 1:12. Those who "FALL AWAY" and "DEPART THE FAITH" are not the ones the farther gives to JESUS *HEBREW 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39
     
    #76 3rdAngel, Oct 22, 2019
  17. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God *ROMANS 10:17
     
    #77 3rdAngel, Oct 23, 2019
  18. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Active Member

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    Amen! John 6:39 - This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. :Thumbsup

    SDA's remind me of the Israelites who have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge and being ignorant of God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. *For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who BELIEVES. (Romans 10:1-4)
     
    #78 Danthemailman, Oct 23, 2019
  19. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Active Member

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    News flash! ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23) The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23) Not through law keeping. (Romans 10:4)

    1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    I certainly do love Jesus and I "keep" (Greek word "tereo") guard, observe, watch over His commandments. 1 John 3:21 - Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

    Your idea of "keep" His commandments is obey the 10 commandments from the Mosaic law (with a heavy emphasis on the 4th commandment - hence the 7th day adventist) as the means of receiving eternal life. It's obvious what you are trusting in for salvation and it's NOT IN CHRIST ALONE but in WORKS. Your perverted gospel of salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works" (Galatians 1:6-9) is summed right up in this statement that you once made to me below:

    The counterfeit Gospel is out there. What is the other Gospel? It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ.

    It's time for you to REPENT AND BELIEVE THE GOSPEL by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) Only then will the blinders be removed. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4)
     
    #79 Danthemailman, Oct 23, 2019
  20. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    As posted earlier those who the father gives to JESUS are only those who "BELIEVE AND FOLLOW" Gods Word to the end *JOHN 10:1-10; 26-27; JAMES 1:12. Those who "FALL AWAY" and "DEPART THE FAITH" are not the ones the farther gives to JESUS *HEBREW 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39. According to Gods Word (not mine) all of Gods promises and salvation are "CONDITIONAL" on "BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING" Gods Word to the end *JAMES 1:12. Ignoring and denying Gods Word does not make it dissappear.
    Sadly all you have are your empty word and accusation that have no truth in them that deny Gods Word thinking you can have salvation while following the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God *MATTHEW 15:3-9 thinking you know God when it is Gods Word (not mine) that says "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him *1 JOHN 2:3-4. I know who I believe and follow dear friend and it is not you.

    May you receive Gods Word and be blessed.
     
    #80 3rdAngel, Oct 23, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
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