John 3:5 Is Not Requiring Baptism For Salvation

[agedman]

It is both.

If I may quote what my Particular Baptist brethren had to say about it in the 17th-Century:

1689 LBC 28.1 Baptism and the Lord's Supper are ordinances of positive and sovereign institution, appointed by the Lord Jesus, the only lawgiver, to be continued in his church to the end of the world. ( Matthew 28:19, 20; 1 Corinthians 11:26 )

1689 LBC 29.1 Baptism is an ordinance of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, to be unto the party baptized, a sign of his fellowship with him, in his death and resurrection; of his being engrafted into him; of remission of sins; and of giving up into God, through Jesus Christ, to live and walk in newness of life. ( Romans 6:3-5; Colossians 2;12; Galatians 3:27; Mark 1:4; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:4 )

So, Baptism is a requirement (or command) and a sign (or picture).

There is a difference between command and ordinance, this is seen in Scriptures in Ephesians 2:

14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.​

The ordinances of the Baptist assemblies are for both association and identification. They are pictures, not bindings as some religions would demand.

It is not diminished by placing the ordinances in such light (of optional due to circumstance and opportunity), for ultimately the inclusion in a local assembly of believers and learning how the new believer’s specific gift may be used is the reason for the salvation.

What I have seen written by some on the BB involves two errors.

1). That baptism in the Scriptures always involves water.

2) that baptism is a requirement (in obedience to the command of Christ as some pronounce) for salvation in some manner to be completed.​

 

[Alan Gross]

Well, like I posted, there are some on the BB that align all Baptism with H2O.

That would include the statement of Jesus,

“...you heard from me; 5for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”​

So certainly accordingly, rather than fire, the Holy Spirit opened up some massive sinkhole, filled it quickly with water, and dumped them all in. No wonder some where talking in what some considered gibberish.

Maybe they really were Methodists and it rained on them?

This is not a denial of water baptism:
“...you heard from me; 5 "for John baptized with water,"

"but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

" you" is Jesus' church, HE Called, "My church", who He Spoke these Words to.

His church that He was Speaking to, was assembled in Corporate Capasity, as an Intensionally Organized Body, by Divine Origin, Built with The Scripturally Baptised Believers into a Perpetual Institution and Organism, and was WHAT Jesus was Making this Promise to.

That 'baptism' was to Be Performed by Him and if a figurative use of the word, "baptised".

Jesus Anointed The Most Holy church He Built, as a Fulfillment of The Prophecy in Danial 9.

The Occation was to be The Day of Pentecost.

No individual is intended.

Jesus was Speaking to His Bride, the woman who later fled into the wilderness.

...

Jesus was Said to be The One Who Would Baptiste with Fire.

That is a figurative usage of "baptise", and the verse before and after it references, Hell.

 

[Alan Gross]

There is a difference between command and ordinance, this is seen in Scriptures in Ephesians 2:

14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.​

The ordinances of the Baptist assemblies are for both association and identification. They are pictures, not bindings as some religions would demand.

It is not diminished by placing the ordinance in such light (of optional due to circumstance and opportunity), for ultimately the inclusion in a local assembly of believers and learning how the new believer’s specific gift may be used is the reason for the salvation.

What I have seen written by some on the BB involves two errors.

1). That baptism in the Scriptures always involves water.

2) that baptism is a requirement (in obedience to the command of Christ as some pronounce) for salvation in some manner to be completed.​

All Saved souls are Commanded by God to be water baptised into A Scripturally Organized church of His.

One of Jesus' churches that Teaches and Practices Scriptural Baptism are Baptist by Name, in the sense of those who are Scripturally Organized and are Built with Scripturally Baptised Believers, by The Authority of God.

All believers are Commanded by God to be Scripturally baptised with Baptist Baptism, as defined by The New Testament.

That is the baptism Jesus was baptised with and all those who were Saved in The New Testament.

Outside The churches that Jesus Built, there is no Authority to Baptiste that is from God, and certainly No Command by God to play church at all, much less, however anyone thinks or to fish without a license, using poison bait.

 

[agedman]

This is not a denial of water baptism:
“...you heard from me; 5 "for John baptized with water,"

"but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

" you" is Jesus' church, HE Called, "My church", who He Spoke these Words to.

His church that He was Speaking to, was assembled in Corporate Capasity, as an Intensionally Organized Body, by Divine Origin, Built with The Scripturally Baptised Believers into a Perpetual Institution and Organism, and was WHAT Jesus was Making this Promise to.

That 'baptism' was to Be Performed by Him and if a figurative use of the word, "baptised".

Jesus Anointed The Most Holy church He Built, as a Fulfillment of The Prophecy in Danial 9.

The Occation was to be The Day of Pentecost.

No individual is intended.

Jesus was Speaking to His Bride, the woman who later fled into the wilderness.

...

Jesus was Said to be The One Who Would Baptiste with Fire.

That is a figurative usage of "baptise", and the verse before and after it references, Hell.

I am weary of folks taking passages and transforming them from individuals to some corporate. such seems the most mindless and foolishly silly interpretation one can devised, and more often seen among those who desire to puff up human ability rather human submission.

The experience of Pentecost was NOT corporate, but to specific individuals who the crowd heard as individuals speaking in the language of the individual hearers original tongue.

The results of Pentecost was the gradual formation of the church first meeting in houses, having all things in support of each other, and later the separation of elders, deacons, congregation. Not the other way around.

Frankly, your desire to render all baptism as associated with water is poorly supported in Scriptures.

 

[agedman]

All Saved souls are Commanded by God to be water baptised into A Scripturally Organized church of His.

One of Jesus' churches that Teaches and Practices Scriptural Baptism are Baptist by Name, in the sense of those who are Scripturally Organized and are Built with Scripturally Baptised Believers, by The Authority of God.

All believers are Commanded by God to be Scripturally baptised with Baptist Baptism, as defined by The New Testament.

That is the baptism Jesus was baptised with and all those who were Saved in The New Testament.

Outside The churches that Jesus Built, there is no Authority to Baptiste that is from God, and certainly No Command by God to play church at all, much less, however anyone thinks or to fish without a license, using poison bait.

Please share the Scripture that makes such a command.

 

[Yeshua1]

There isn't any such thing.

It is a misreading, completely, 100%.

There is no 'Baptism by/in The Holy Spirit'

There is no 'Baptism by/in the Holy Spirit done by God'... (relative to an individual).

And there is no, 'Baptism by/in the Holy Spirit done by God upon all when saved!'

There is "one baptism".

Other references to baptism are figurative, but there are not even any figurative usages referring to, "Baptism by/in the Holy Spirit (and/or) done by God (and/or) upon all when saved!"

Somehow, a misreading has developed into a hybrid invention of this thinking.

And/or a hybrid invention, elsewhere, has lent itself to developing this misreading as an addition error, on top of another error.

Were ALL baptized by the same Holy Spirit at moment saved, as he places us in union with Christ, and part of His body, if He does not, then we are not saved!
The doctrine is biblical, but not the Charismatic use and understanding of the term!

 

[Alan Gross]

I am weary of folks taking passages and transforming them from individuals to some corporate. such seems the most mindless and foolishly silly interpretation one can devised, and more often seen among those who desire to puff up human ability rather human submission.

The experience of Pentecost was NOT corporate, but to specific individuals who the crowd heard as individuals speaking in the language of the individual hearers original tongue.

The results of Pentecost was the gradual formation of the church first meeting in houses, having all things in support of each other, and later the separation of elders, deacons, congregation. Not the other way around.

Frankly, your desire to render all baptism as associated with water is poorly supported in Scriptures.

You have no desire to know what The Bible Teaches about Church Truth.

Big deal.

Since, I have never said 'baptism' refers to water in ever case, "one baptism", is just one more Divine emilmate of Church Truth that Extremely Dear to God and not you.

So?

It wearys you.

Jesus Died for His church.

You are not a part of The Church that Jesus Built.

You don't even know that there is no church, other than those Jesus Ordains, which assemble.

That's novice stuff, too.

Not something to whine or brag about.

 

[Alan Gross]

Were ALL baptized by the same Holy Spirit at moment saved, as he places us in union with Christ, and part of His body, if He does not, then we are not saved!
The doctrine is biblical, but not the Charismatic use and understanding of the term!

No, that verse refers to The Holy Spirit Leading those believers in Corinth to be water baptised into the fellowship and membership of The Lord's Organized assembly, there.

A commentary could explain the verse as:

"By One and The Self-Same Holy Spirit were all of us who are Saved in this location, Jews and Gentiles, Lead to Obey The Lord's Command to be baptised, by water, as Jesus Was, into this one, local, assembled, congregation, gathered here, at Corinth in Divine Capacity, as Founded by Jesus and Taught in The New Testament."

The Holy Spirit has never baptised anything.

The is no 'baptism' ever associated with Salvation, or 'union with Jesus'

... And there is no Biblical Teaching of a 'body', that all Saved individuals are are 'in', and certainly never entered into some 'body' that isn't Taught, as having any relationship to The Holy Spirit, or baptism.

...

That isn't actually Taught in those verses any more than The Charismatic error you mentioned, which they suppose includes 'gifts'.

...
Neither are 'Taught'.

There needs to be very careful observance to what God is Teaching.

Hybred inventions jump out with help from Supernatural Evil influence, but aren't there after being on our knees and seeking God's Face.

 

[agedman]

You have no desire to know what The Bible Teaches about Church Truth.

Big deal.

Since, I have never said 'baptism' refers to water in ever case, "one baptism", is just one more Divine emilmate of Church Truth that Extremely Dear to God and not you.

So?

It wearys you.

Jesus Died for His church.

You are not a part of The Church that Jesus Built.

You don't even know that there is no church, other than those Jesus Ordains, which assemble.

That's novice stuff, too.

Not something to whine or brag about.

Are you claiming that I am an unbeliever and not redeemed?

 

[Reformed]

There is a difference between command and ordinance, this is seen in Scriptures in Ephesians 2:

14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.​

The ordinances of the Baptist assemblies are for both association and identification. They are pictures, not bindings as some religions would demand.

It is not diminished by placing the ordinances in such light (of optional due to circumstance and opportunity), for ultimately the inclusion in a local assembly of believers and learning how the new believer’s specific gift may be used is the reason for the salvation.

What I have seen written by some on the BB involves two errors.

1). That baptism in the Scriptures always involves water.

2) that baptism is a requirement (in obedience to the command of Christ as some pronounce) for salvation in some manner to be completed.​

Baptism is not required for salvation, although it is required as an act of obedience. Jesus commanded the disciples to make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Trinity (Matthew 28:19). Refusal to be baptized indicates a rebellious heart. Of course, I am not referring to those individuals who are providentially hindered from being baptized.

There are two types of New Testament baptism and they are categorically different. Spiritual baptism is synonymous with the new birth (c.f. Ephesians 1:13). The other baptism is water baptism. The two are different, although the latter reflects the reality of the first.





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[Alan Gross]

Are you claiming that I am an unbeliever and not redeemed?

That is perfectly non-Biblical to deduce.

No concept of the Biblical churches Designed and Founded by Jesus have ever been Defined by God, as "including all saved people".

There is no such thing in existence and nothing like that has ever been in The Bible and it is still not.

A hybred invention of Satan in his development for perversions of New Testament brought that false teaching along to piggy-back on top of The Catholic heresies of "universal visable", or "universal invisible" and robbed Jesus Word, 'church', and adopted it to that Abomination.

Saved souls who do not join a New Testament church, as a member by Scriptural Baptism, are a part of The Kingdom of God, on Earth.

A Scriptural Baptised believer that is a member of The Kind of Churches Jesus Built, is a member of a Bible church.

"The church", and "the body", are generic usages of local assemblies.

"The husband" is the generic usage of that word.

Satan has not invented a Universal Husband to which all wives are married, but he is heavily messing with God's Creation of male and female, isn't he?

Satan invented a false 'church' concept, just like he twists up everything else.

Your continued assumption that there is something that says that if someone knows The Lord, then they become a part of it and that if someone says you are not that they are questioning your Salvation is just an extra-Biblical.

All Saved are in The Kingdom of God.

The Lord's churches are Real and Local Called-Out Assemblies, always, UNLESS SATAN IS INVOLVED IN THE PERVERSION OF GOD'S TEACHING ON CHURCH TRUTH, WHICH Satan most certainly happens to be.

Being easily deceived and Tricked by Satan does not mean someone doesn't know The Lord.

 

[agedman]

That is perfectly non-Biblical to deduce.

No concept of the Biblical churches Designed and Founded by Jesus have ever been Defined by God, as "including all saved people".

There is no such thing in existence and nothing like that has ever been in The Bible and it is still not.

A hybred invention of Satan in his development for perversions of New Testament brought that false teaching along to piggy-back on top of The Catholic heresies of "universal visable", or "universal invisible" and robbed Jesus Word, 'church', and adopted it to that Abomination.

Saved souls who do not join a New Testament church, as a member by Scriptural Baptism, are a part of The Kingdom of God, on Earth.

A Scriptural Baptised believer that is a member of The Kind of Churches Jesus Built, is a member of a Bible church.

"The church", and "the body", are generic usages of local assemblies.

"The husband" is the generic usage of that word.

Satan has not invented a Universal Husband to which all wives are married, but he is heavily messing with God's Creation of male and female, isn't he?

Satan invented a false 'church' concept, just like he twists up everything else.

Your continued assumption that there is something that says that if someone knows The Lord, then they become a part of it and that if someone says you are not that they are questioning your Salvation is just an extra-Biblical.

All Saved are in The Kingdom of God.

The Lord's churches are Real and Local Called-Out Assemblies, always, UNLESS SATAN IS INVOLVED IN THE PERVERSION OF GOD'S TEACHING ON CHURCH TRUTH, WHICH Satan most certainly happens to be.

Being easily deceived and Tricked by Satan does not mean someone doesn't know The Lord.

Answer the question directly.

Are you posting that I am an unbeliever?

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I realized something. Doesn't scripture speak of three washings or baptisms?

Here I refer to Hebrews 6:1-2 which uses a plural for baptisms and I refer to Matthew 3:11-12, which seems to explain all three baptisms:

Hebrews 6:1-2 NASB
Therefore leaving the [a]elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to [c]maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.

Matthew 3:11-12 NASB
11 “As for me, I baptize you [g]with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you [h]with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

It seems we are baptized by water, by the Holy Spirit, and by fire (I take this to mean tribulations). I will have to explore this in greater detail in the Word.

 

[Alan Gross]

Baptism is not required for salvation, although it is required as an act of obedience. Jesus commanded the disciples to make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Trinity (Matthew 28:19). Refusal to be baptized indicates a rebellious heart. Of course, I am not referring to those individuals who are providentially hindered from being baptized.

There are two types of New Testament baptism and they are categorically different. Spiritual baptism is synonymous with the new birth (c.f. Ephesians 1:13). The other baptism is water baptism. The two are different, although the latter reflects the reality of the first
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Historical Bible Baptists see and Teach Eternal Security, from Ephesians 1:13,

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"

Believers Become Partakers of The Divine Nature when they are Born Again, by The Holy Spirit.

I am not going to say that I can see the Word, or any allusion, to a 'baptism', associated with this Scripture.

That is what I about whether something is 'Taught', in a verse.

I can put a fig tree, or star, or The Sons of God in there, too, but they aren't there to start with and neither is, "baptism".

 

[Reformed]

Answer the question directly.

Are you posting that I am an unbeliever?

Sounds like Primitive Baptist theology.

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[Alan Gross]

Answer the question directly.

Are you posting that I am an unbeliever?

I don't break the Board rules.

And I've never insinuated that about you.

Of course, I don't know one way or another.

Have you ever been lost?

Saying someone is not in anything called a church, as used in The Bible, is just a Bible reference, Biblically Speaking.

If I told a Charismatic they have no gift, they think I don't know something they do(?)

If I disagree with Van, I'm not qualified.

Whatever.

 

[37818]

The ONLY baptism God requires is ther Baptism by/in the Holy Spirit done by God upon all when saved!

But water baptism is a baptist distinctive for local church membership. Many baptist churches go so far as to require that baptism [immersion] to have been in at the very least in another Baptist fellowship.

 

[agedman]

I don't break the Board rules.

And I've never insinuated that about you.

Of course, I don't know one way or another.

Have you ever been lost?

Saying someone is not in anything called a church, as used in The Bible, is just a Bible reference, Biblically Speaking.

If I told a Charismatic they have no gift, they think I don't know something they do(?)

If I disagree with Van, I'm not qualified.

Whatever.

When you post, “You are not a part of The Church that Jesus Built,” that is the conclusion one can draw. So it certainly could be taken as an insinuation.

I just wanted to be certain before continuing this conversation.

 

[37818]

There is no 'Baptism by/in the Holy Spirit done by God'... (relative to an individual).

There is the "Of the doctrine of baptisms."
John the baptist said, "I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable."

 

[Alan Gross]

When you post, “You are not a part of The Church that Jesus Built,” that is the conclusion one can draw. So it certainly could be taken as an insinuation.

I just wanted to be certain before continuing this conversation.

The Church Jesus Built is a Bible concept.

'Churches', 'church', 'body', when used referring to New Testament churches* as Jesus Strutured are 'called-out assemblies', in every usage.

*Even in The Bible when referring the civil assemblies.

We can go through all 113, or so, times it's used in The Bible, if you want.

I should make a Scripture Video w Audio explaining.

Here's a secular Google Wiki result.

Latin ecclesia, from Greek ekklesia, where the word is a compound of two segments: "ek", a preposition meaning "out of", and a verb, "kaleo", signifying "to call" - together, literally, "to call out". Although that usage soon passed away and was replaced with "assembly, congregation, council", or "convocation".

Ecclesia is defined as a political assembly of citizens in The definition of ancient Greece, or the church members. A group of ancient Greek politicians who came to Athens to debate is an example of an ecclesia. The collective congregation of a church is an example of an ecclesia.