Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
You are wrong on so many levesl and so many topics I don't even know where to begin.And in having the truth, I am also right.
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You are wrong on so many levesl and so many topics I don't even know where to begin.And in having the truth, I am also right.
Summit of Papal Power:A response by an anonymous Protestant.
"Vicarius Christi" has a very specific meaning within Catholic theology with regard to the Papacy. It stands to reason that its meaning should be defined according to the Catholic understanding of its usage. Why would one impose another meaning upon it which the Catholic Church does not have since it is a term used by it within a particular theological context. "Vicarius" in Latin means a "substitute," "deputy," "viceregent," "adjutant," "proxy," etc.(cf. Harpers' Latin Dictionary, Vol 2, American Book Company, 1907, p. 1985). It does not have the meaning of the Greek preposition "anti" which means "opposite" or "against" (the Latin preposition "ante" means "before"). In order to make such a connection, one would have to find such usage in the Latin/Greek lexicographical works, and it would have to be common or usual, not anomalous in order to be of academic value. What is happening here, frankly, is the injection of prejudicial, theological Protestant agendas that have little relevance to an objective definition of a simple term in Catholic theology. This is an article about a term that references a Catholic doctrinal understanding of the Papacy. Protestants do not normally use this term, nor do they use it with a different theological meaning. If they did, then the complaint would be just that this is a one-sided "Catholic definition," and the Protestant usage and definition would also have to be included. Now, if I am incorrect, and there is some Protestant denomination out there that in fact normally uses this term in a theologically different way than the Catholic Church does, then its definition should be presented here with source documentation/references to support the claim. I might also point out that Dandanx is incorrect when he asserts that Catholics believe the Pope is "exempt from the liability of sin." The Catholic Church teaches no such thing regarding the personal morality of its Popes. It merely teaches that the Pope is infallible when he speaks "ex cathedra" (in his office as teacher/Bishop of the universal Church) on questions of "faith and morals." This is not the same thing as saying that he is personally "sinless," or not responsible or "liable" for his own sin - which he is. KStahl M.Div., M.A. - BTW: I'm a Protestant! (Nov 27, 2006)
And response in same discussion.
Thank you for your lengthy comment. You were correct when you said the Pope was not exempt from the liability of sin and yes, it is correct that Catholics believe the Pope is Christ Himself when he is speaking from "ex-cathedra", which is found nowhere in the Holy Bible. I guess this was how the Pope and the RCC gained so much power during the Middle Ages. I am a Protestant myself and I am saddened by some of the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. [source: Wikipedia,Talk:Vicar of Christ]
Summit of Papal Power:
Innocent III (1198-1216). Most Powerful of all the Popes. Claimed to be “Vicar of Christ,” “Vicar of God,” “Supreme Sovereign over the Church and the World.” Claimed the right to Depose Kings and Princes, and that “All things on earth and in heaven and in hell are subject to the Vicar of Christ.”
DR. HENRY H. Halley. (n.d.). Halley’s Handbook: Church History.
I already told you what compelled me to read and obey the Torah. Yeshuah said, "I did not come to abolish the Torah", therefore the Torah is still binding. I believe Yeshuah is the true Messiah on the basis of all the prophecies he fulfilled, including the 490 years prophecy of Daniel. These prophecies are too exact for them to have been guessed on the whim of anybody. So I believe and hold all these set-apart writings to be true, and also see great wisdom in these writings.
The book of Daniel.
Whatever, it is a blasphemy and a heresy.With all due respect to Dr. Halley he is wrong. The term Vicarius Filii Dei is a reference to Jesus. Here's a syllogism; this might be difficult for you so watch the bouncing ball:
Jesus Christ is God
The Pope is the Vicar of Jesus Christ
Therefore, the Pope is a Vicar of God.
It's my understanding Vicarius Filii Dei was first used by Pope Nicholas III . [Cf. Fanning, W. (1912). Vicar of Christ. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Retrieved November 10, 2019 from New Advent: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Vicar of Christ]
JoeT
Daniel 9 doesn't mention antichrist, it is a prophecy of Christ.By the combining of the facts in Daniel 9, 2 Thess.2, & Rev. 13 concerning the beast & his "image".
No; it hadn't yet occurred, & STILL hasn't ! Jesus made it plain, E. G. "When you see". And He said, "STANDING in the holy place".
Please read post #47.
That wasn't the AoD as it was still future when Jesus spoke.The AoD happened in 168 BC when Antiochus Epiphanes sacrificed a pig on the altar of the second temple. Jesus uses this as a symbol for the continued animal sacrifices that remained standing after he replaced them with the sacrifice of himself.
Matthew and Luke are talking about the same thing. Luke said When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies then know that its DESOLATION is nigh. Who caused THAT DESOLATION? The abominable Roman armies.
That reminds me of a joke you've probably heard.
A man is in danger of drowning. A boat comes along and tries to rescue him, but he refuses. He explains that he asked God to be rescued and he trusts God. Another boat comes by, and he again refuses aid for the same reason. He then drowns. He gets to Heaven and asks God why God didn't rescue him. God replies that he sent two boats to rescue the man, but the man refused rescue.
We have the abominable Roman armies that caused the desolation of Jerusalem, fulfilling prophecy. But, some Christians are too busy waiting on God to fulfill prophesy to see that God has already done so.
They don't believe that prophesy can be fulfilled till the end of time. Thay fail to see that it is already mostly fulfilled. The pope is Antichrist and it wasn't the reformers that first taught that, The Waldenases did, the Hussites did, the Albis did, the petrobbrusions. The Lollards did, and may others.
Say, how do you address your father? You and I know that when Jesus said "call no man father" he was not referring to the successors to the Apostles or the priests. It produces some biblical problems.Whatever, it is a blasphemy and a heresy.
Popey is called "Holy Father" Jesus said call no MAN father. Holy is a name of God, As well ae Reverend. Anyobne using those titles are saying they are God. Blasphemy. Psalm 111:9
"I already told you what compelled me to read and obey the Torah."
No you are giving circular reasoning. ."Because the Torah is the truth." is not a reason an atheist decides to read a torah.
Why did you read the TORAH the FIRST TIME in your life? GENESIS. who told you to read this? How did you understand what a genesis even is? who taught how to read the Torah?
You say you see great wisdom , what sort of wisdom can you impart that is lacking to anyone here that would actually help their life?
Say, how do you address your father? You and I know that when Jesus said "call no man father" he was not referring to the successors to the Apostles or the priests. It produces some biblical problems.
We would have to consider Joseph was a heretic, he said "Not by your counsel was I sent hither, but by the will of God: who hath made me as it were a father to Pharao, . . ." [Genesis 45:8]; oops!
And then there was Job; " I was the father of the poor: and the cause which I knew not,. . ." [Job 29:16] oopsie!
What Jesus Christ was conveying that the Apostles were not to have masters or rabbis over them like those over a school of philosophy are called 'father'. This is evident when Jesus Christ first said, "But be not you called Rabbi. For one is your master; and all you are brethren." [Matthew 23:8] then follows with "Neither be ye called masters; for one is your master, Christ." [Matthew 23:10]. Why would Jesus suggest this, wouldn't it be better to have a teacher rather than start up an entire religion on your own? The reason aught to be quite clear, Jesus did send the Catholic Church a teacher, the Paraclete, Holy Spirit to answer all their questions.
JoeT
It is not circular reasoning because I already gave you examples of why I believe the Torah is true, because of the prophecies the Messiah fulfilled. For example, the 490 years prophecy of Daniel. Daniel prophesied when the Messiah would be anointed, when exactly he would die, that his death would establish establish a new covenant, that after his death Jerusalem and the temple would be destroyed by the 4th kingdom, which we came to know as the Romans. Then we see how the Messiah fulfilled the appointed times of the spring of the Torah in his first coming, such as his death on the exact day and hour the Passover lamb is killed of the Torah, then his resurrection on the day of the first fruits of barley of the Torah, and then him sending his anointing on the Feast of Weeks of the Torah. And then there are many other prophecies he fulfilled spoken by the prophets. It is too much for anyone to have guessed on a whim. So because of all of this, I believe everything Yeshuah said to be true. And since I believe everything he said, which included the teaching that we should obey the Torah, therefore I obey the Torah. This is not complicated nor rocket science.
1 Corinthians 4
15For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.
Thats teacher and Father in one verse.
If a person wants to be smart aleck. You can't call anyone MR. MRS. MISS nor Doctor. You can't call Jesus Good. And you have to hate your parents, kids, wife and entire family.
Too obvious was it?
JoeT
Summit of Papal Power:
Innocent III (1198-1216). Most Powerful of all the Popes. Claimed to be “Vicar of Christ,” “Vicar of God,” “Supreme Sovereign over the Church and the World.” Claimed the right to Depose Kings and Princes, and that “All things on earth and in heaven and in hell are subject to the Vicar of Christ.”
DR. HENRY H. Halley. (n.d.). Halley’s Handbook: Church History.
" And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." ( Daniel 9:27 ).Oh where in the book of Daniel does he say any such thing?
I disagree.Daniel 9 doesn't mention antichrist, it is a prophecy of Christ.