Do Dispensationalists share in the guilt of bloodshed related to Israel?

[1689Dave]

The bandwagon defense is a logical fallacy. There was a large number of people who followed Jim Jones.

As I understand Jones wasn't tied to historic Christianity any less than Dispensationalism.

 

[1689Dave]

Wouldn't I prepare a mission team heading to Uganda, for example, in their languages and culture? Would preparing a team in that manner necessarily imply neglect to other nations?

But supporting one group killing another seems to put the other group out of reach. Do you agree?

 

[Rob_BW]

But supporting one group killing another seems to put the other group out of reach. Do you agree?

If we wait for a secular government to be completely at peace before proselytizing it's populace, don't you think we'll miss a lot of opportunities?

 

[Revmitchell]

As I understand Jones wasn't tied to historic Christianity any less than Dispensationalism.

Figures you would completely miss the point.

 

[1689Dave]

Figures you would completely miss the point.

How old is Dispensationalism?

 

[1689Dave]

If we wait for a secular government to be completely at peace before proselytizing it's populace, don't you think we'll miss a lot of opportunities?

I'm talking about alienating one group by supporting the other instead of preaching the gospel to all.

 

[Rob_BW]

I'm talking about alienating one group by supporting the other instead of preaching the gospel to all.

It sounds like you have some chip on your shoulder regarding Jews.

If I said my church sent a mission to Pakistan, would you be accusing me of alienating the Indians? If my church sent mission to Armenia, would you be accusing me of alienating the Azerbajanis? If we equipped a team with tools to evangelize Sunis, would you be accusing us of alienating the Shias?

I'm sure that's not your intention, but I'm at a loss as to your line of thinking.

 

[1689Dave]

It sounds like you have some chip on your shoulder regarding Jews.

If I said my church sent a mission to Pakistan, would you be accusing me of alienating the Indians? If my church sent mission to Armenia, would you be accusing me of alienating the Azerbajanis? If we equipped a team with tools to evangelize Sunis, would you be accusing us of alienating the Shias?

I'm sure that's not your intention, but I'm at a loss as to your line of thinking.

My questions center on Dispensationalism preferring the State of Israel over the surrounding nations they are at war with. And the bloodshed, not only from war, but from terrorism linked to the situation.

 

[Reformed1689]

Thanks David. I'd like to hear some of what you believe in this.

The Bible is clear there is still a plan for the Jews. Saying that dispensationalists are responsible for bloodshed is like saying because I voted for Trump I am responsible for any action he takes that violates my view. I don't agree with that, that would be absurd.

The idea of a different Gospel between OT and NT is a misunderstanding. Both Testaments are salvation by grace through faith. Not all Jews were or are saved. Romans makes this quite clear.

 

[Rob_BW]

Personally, I prefer secular Israel because they're a functioning democracy in a sea of autocratic excess, who've carved out a beautiful country where I can freely travel. If only the other Middle Eastern countries I've been to had been run so well. Though a few come close, the majority seem to be dumpster fires.

 

[1689Dave]

The Bible is clear there is still a plan for the Jews. Saying that dispensationalists are responsible for bloodshed is like saying because I voted for Trump I am responsible for any action he takes that violates my view. I don't agree with that, that would be absurd.

The idea of a different Gospel between OT and NT is a misunderstanding. Both Testaments are salvation by grace through faith. Not all Jews were or are saved. Romans makes this quite clear.

I agree with a minor exception. That being the broken off unbelievers are reattached to Israel only upon having faith in Christ.


“And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.” Romans 11:23 (KJV 1900)

 

[church mouse guy]

As I understand Jones wasn't tied to historic Christianity any less than Dispensationalism.

Actually, Jim Jones, from Indiana, was ordained by the Disciples of Christ, headquartered in Indianapolis. And Peoples Temple was started in Indianapolis.

I am not a dispensationalist but I know for a fact that they believe that there is no salvation in Judaism as does about everyone else in the Christian world except a few minor exceptions here and there.

So I think that you are beating up on a strawman for some reason. Your motive seems to be to say that there are no more Jews but when you are asked about who it was that the Germans murdered you say that they were bad Jews. Well, by your appellation it is bad Jews who are living in Israel. I have politely pointed out that you do not go to Tehran and informed them not to waste their bombs on Israel but to aim them at you since you are a real Jew.

Israel is a military ally and they have a very good military, perhaps second only to our military. So why are you constantly attacking Christians and Israelis who have done you no harm?

 

[1689Dave]

Actually, Jim Jones, from Indiana, was ordained by the Disciples of Christ, headquartered in Indianapolis. And Peoples Temple was started in Indianapolis.

I am not a dispensationalist but I know for a fact that they believe that there is no salvation in Judaism as does about everyone else in the Christian world except a few minor exceptions here and there.

So I think that you are beating up on a strawman for some reason. Your motive seems to be to say that there are no more Jews but when you are asked about who it was that the Germans murdered you say that they were bad Jews. Well, by your appellation it is bad Jews who are living in Israel. I have politely pointed out that you do not go to Tehran and informed them not to waste their bombs on Israel but to aim them at you since you are a real Jew.

Israel is a military ally and they have a very good military, perhaps second only to our military. So why are you constantly attacking Christians and Israelis who have done you no harm?

Why would I attack Christians, birds of my own feather? Why not try to answer some of the OP for me so I can better understand your position?

 

[robycop3]

Dave, you just won't believe what Scripture says about God's coming restoration of physical Israel & Judah. It should be very obvious to you that He's partially restored Judah at this poing, giving them Jerusalem as its capital again. And He's gonna restore Israel as well when His time comes.

Again, SPIRITUAL Israel includes all Christians of all races, peoples, & nations. Of course, He grefts Jews into spiritual Israel all-the-more-readily when they become Christians.

Remember, God said He's gonna purge unbelief from Israel & Judah. That means LITERAL israel, as SPIRITUAL Israel doesn't need any such purging.

it's so simple, Dave ! Just believe Scripture as writrten !

 

[church mouse guy]

Why would I attack Christians, birds of my own feather? Why not try to answer some of the OP for me so I can better understand your position?

You are attacking dispensationalists aren't you by saying that they believe there is salvation in Judaism when they don't. So you have bad Jews and bad Christians written down in your book.

 

[George Antonios]

It doesn't. American Christians who support Israel don't share the gospel in Israel, nor do they object to Israeli laws muffling the gospel. Christian communities in the middle-east have been decimated as a result of America's actions, actions strongly supported, for the sake of Israel, by said American Christians under false pretenses.
Yes, it does. Many supporters of Israel deny their belief in two gospels, but their denial is not backed up by their actions nor their other words.

WHAT in the world are you talking about friend?! I'm a Lebanese-Palestinian of countless generations. My father's family is from the mountain of Lebanon, I was born in Beirut. My grandfather was born in Haifa and my grandmother was born in Bethlehem. They are part of what we call the "'48 (1948) Arabs". My uncle has been in Jerusalem, preaching openly, for 30 years. Comments like the above are stunning. Too many YouTube videos maybe. Come live in the Middle East and talk to persecuted Christian minorities before you post so confidently, please.
And for your information, although I disagree with much American foreign policy, their presence in the ME (yes, we all know it's mainly for oil and building contracts) actually helps preserve our Christian presence in the Middle East. You think I want Saudi Arabia or Iran or the Soviets there instead?!

 

[George Antonios]

Do Dispensationalists share in the guilt of bloodshed related to Israel?

I’m interested in how their support for the State of Israel fits into the plan to preach the gospel to all nations.

Paul teaches all of God’s promises are yes in Jesus. How can the ancient promises apply to those who exist solely because of their hatred and rejection of Jesus?

Does Dispensationalism teach two gospels? One for the church and another based on OT Law for the Jews? Where in the future another temple will replace the gospel with Judaism?

I have many more questions. But these first come to mind.

I'm a dispensationalist and a Lebanese-Palestinian of countless generations. My father's family is from the mountain of Lebanon, I was born in Beirut. My grandfather was born in Haifa and my grandmother was born in Bethlehem. They are part of what we call the "'48 (1948) Arabs". My uncle has been in Jerusalem, preaching openly, for 30 years. I personally know a little bunch of dispensational Americans preaching the gospel to Jews and Arabs in Israel and around it.
Dispensationalists by-and-large believe and teach that Jews, although nationally the people of God, yet perish individually if they reject the Son of God, and thus seek to reach them, as well as Arabs. I'm an Arab whose family was reached by Baptist American missionaries in Lebanon.

 

[Shoostie]

Actually, Jim Jones, from Indiana, was ordained by the Disciples of Christ, headquartered in Indianapolis. And Peoples Temple was started in Indianapolis.

Jim Jones was a homosexual and an atheist (see Wikipedia). I'm aware that he had shared a pulpit with "The Message" cult leader William Branham before he started his own cult. (Branham claimed to be an angel seen by John in the Revelation. And, even dead, his cult still has a couple of million of very low-profile followers who expect his return). So, don't blame Disciple of Christ for what him.

I am not a dispensationalist but I know for a fact that they believe that there is no salvation in Judaism as does about everyone else in the Christian world except a few minor exceptions here and there.

Their claim that there is no salvation outside of Christ is lip service, not backed up by their other speech or actions. Most of their groups decidedly don't evangelize in Israel. None none of them object to Israel's muffling of Christian evangelism. Jews don't have to accept Jesus to be declared over and over and over that they are God's Chosen people. If the're already God's people, why do they need Jesus?

Israel is a military ally and they have a very good military, perhaps second only to our military. So why are you constantly attacking Christians and Israelis who have done you no harm?

Why wouldn't they have a good military. They get great weapons from the US, that they can buy with the money the US gives them. And, what military tech the US won't sell them, their spies steal.

 

[George Antonios]

Their claim that there is no salvation outside of Christ is lip service, not backed up by their other speech or actions. Most of their groups decidedly don't evangelize in Israel. None none of them object to Israel's muffling of Christian evangelism. Jews don't have to accept Jesus to be declared over and over and over that they are God's Chosen people. If the're already God's people, why do they need Jesus?

Why wouldn't they have a good military. They get great weapons from the US, that they can buy with the money the US gives them. And, what military tech the US won't sell them, their spies steal.

See post #37 above.
That is ignorant speech. My uncle is a dispensationalist who risked his life preaching in Syria, had his car burned in southern Lebanon, and has been preaching in Jerusalem to Jews and Arabs for 30 years.
I'm a Palestinian-Lebanese who got over his Israel-complex, thanks to the grace of God. You need to as well.
Dispensationalists by-and-large believe and teach that Jews, although nationally the people of God, yet perish individually if they reject the Son of God. Don't misrepresent us please.

 

[Shoostie]

My uncle has been in Jerusalem, preaching openly, for 30 years. Comments like the above are stunning.

Some Christians defend Israel's muffling of Christian evangelism by denying it happens. I'm guessing your uncle's "open preaching" was quietly within church buildings, in segregated Christian communities.

With Google you can find things like this Christianity Today article, "An Israeli immigration Judge has ordered the deportation of a Messianic Jewish man from England who was arrested last week for taking part in an evangelistic event...." If Israel will deport a Jewish citizen for Christian evangelizing, imagine how much harder they'd come down on anyone else for preaching openly.

Soviets there instead?!

Russia is doing more for ME peace than America.