Do Dispensationalists share in the guilt of bloodshed related to Israel?

[George Antonios]

Some Christians defend Israel's muffling of Christian evangelism by denying it happens. That's a claim that anyone can see is false using a little time with Google. Why is it that people who disagrees with what I say depend so heavily on their own personal evidence that I can't evaluate? I'm guessing your uncle's "open preaching" was quietly within church buildings, in segregated Christian communities.

With Google you can find things like this Christianity Today article, "An Israeli immigration Judge has ordered the deportation of a Messianic Jewish man from England who was arrested last week for taking part in an evangelistic event...." If Israel will deport a Jewish citizen for Christian evangelizing, imagine how much harder they'd come down on anyone else for preaching openly.

Russia is doing more for ME peace than America.

Yeah, good man, go with google, the bastion of the gospel, rather than the witness of your own brother in Christ and a man of the region.
And there are people who street-preach in Israel.

The gospel is hindered everywhere to some degree.
To come down so hardly and non-proportionately on dispensationalists, the U.S., and Israel, is the problem here.
Your claims that dispensationalists don't preach the gospel, or deny that Israel does fight it (which all nations do and most to a greater extent), or that we believe that Jews are automatically saved, is false, and possibly a lie. That's the point.

As for Russia doing more for ME peace, you have no idea what you're talking about.
Are you from there? Are you there? I wish I could take you with me to an area of the ME under American or Jewish influence, hand you some tracts, and ask you to pass them OR propose the same to you in an area of Russian or Islamic influence, and see what you choose.
And until you would be ready to choose the latter over the former, desist from your keyboard warrior claims please.

 

[Van]

Yet another thread, by those advocating Covenant Theology, bashing undefined "Dispensationalism."

What is the difference between "Traditional Dispensationalism" and "Progressive Dispensationalism?"

Why attempt to tar believers with an undefined generalization?

Hatchet job anyone?

 

[1689Dave]

Dave, you just won't believe what Scripture says about God's coming restoration of physical Israel & Judah. It should be very obvious to you that He's partially restored Judah at this poing, giving them Jerusalem as its capital again. And He's gonna restore Israel as well when His time comes.

Again, SPIRITUAL Israel includes all Christians of all races, peoples, & nations. Of course, He grefts Jews into spiritual Israel all-the-more-readily when they become Christians.

Remember, God said He's gonna purge unbelief from Israel & Judah. That means LITERAL israel, as SPIRITUAL Israel doesn't need any such purging.

it's so simple, Dave ! Just believe Scripture as writrten !

My problem with this view is God removed the unbelievers from Israel. Leaving only spiritual Israel. And only if any accept Christ will they be reattached to Israel. That is, we are Israel and those calling themselves Israel in the Middle East are not. If you think about it, they had a chance to remain Israel as the early Jewish believers did, by accepting Jesus. Since they did not, they exist solely because of their hatred and rejection of him. And history bears this out.

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” John 3:36 (KJV 1900)

 

[1689Dave]

You are attacking dispensationalists aren't you by saying that they believe there is salvation in Judaism when they don't. So you have bad Jews and bad Christians written down in your book.

As I recall, they say a third temple will stand in Jerusalem where the animal sacrifice will be restored. This means Judaism will replace Christianity in my thinking.

 

[George Antonios]

My problem with this view is God removed the unbelievers from Israel. Leaving only spiritual Israel. And only if any accept Christ will they be reattached to Israel. That is, we are Israel and those calling themselves Israel in the Middle East are not. If you think about it, they had a chance to remain Israel as the early Jewish believers did, by accepting Jesus. Since they did not, they exist solely because of their hatred and rejection of him. And history bears this out.

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” John 3:36 (KJV 1900)

That there is a spiritual Israel does not negate, in the scriptures, the reality of a physical Israel with physical blessings.
The idea that it does is the cause for the confusion.

 

[George Antonios]

As I recall, they say a third temple will stand in Jerusalem where the animal sacrifice will be restored. This means Judaism will replace Christianity in my thinking.

"we" don't say that. Ezekiel does. Chapters 40-48, which are impossible to spiritualize away. And the Lord Jesus Christ will the King of Israel. And to this come back of Judaism (albeit a fulfilled on in Christ) the witness of Paul agrees:
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which ARE [not "were"] a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Furthermore, the following passage in Hebrews 8 has not been fulfilled for it is not talking about the present New Testament, as we Gentiles commonly think in our conceit:
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

 

[1689Dave]

"we" don't say that. Ezekiel does. Chapters 40-48, which are impossible to spiritualize away. And the Lord Jesus Christ will the King of Israel. And to this come back of Judaism (albeit a fulfilled on in Christ) the witness of Paul agrees:
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which ARE [not "were"] a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

As I recall, Ezekiel calls for literal atoning animal sacrifices????

 

[1689Dave]

That there is a spiritual Israel does not negate, in the scriptures, the reality of a physical Israel with physical blessings.
The idea that it does is the cause for the confusion.

Doesn't circumcision make one a physical Jew and Physical member of Israel? If so, how are any left after Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross?

 

[George Antonios]

Doesn't circumcision make one a physical Jew and Physical member of Israel? If so, how are any left after Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross?

The Lord's death rendered physical circumcision of no avail as far as justification, not nationality in the flesh:
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

 

[1689Dave]

The Lord's death rendered physical circumcision of no avail as far as justification, not nationality in the flesh:
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

“And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.” Genesis 17:14 (KJV 1900)

 

[George Antonios]

“And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.” Genesis 17:14 (KJV 1900)

Right. So a church-age circumcised Hebrew is a Jew in the flesh, but unjustified thereby.
Justification VS identification in the flesh: 2 separate issues.

 

[1689Dave]

Right. So a church-age circumcised Hebrew is a Jew in the flesh, but unjustified thereby.

No, he is cut off from Israel. Christ pulled the plug on circumcision....so to speak.

 

[George Antonios]

No, he is cut off from Israel. Christ pulled the plug on circumcision....so to speak.

He, now, in the church age, would be cut off from the nation of Israel, but it doesn't mean the nation ceased to exist.
It's a moot point anyway now.
Anyway answer me this: did the cross disannul the existence of all nations in the flesh? Does that mean that nations don't exist anymore? Have Egyptians ceased to be because of the cross? Or is it only Israel that ceased to be?
And please bear in mind that nationalities are only said to be no more in 2 ways in the NT:
1) In Christ (they are not eliminated outside of Christ, and lost people are outside of Christ)
2) In spirit (not in the flesh)
There are still males and females, in the flesh, are there not?
So, has only Israel ceased, or did all nations also cease to be because of the cross?

 

[1689Dave]

He, now, in the church age, would be cut off from the nation of Israel, but it doesn't mean the nation ceased to exist.
It's a moot point anyway now.
Anyway answer me this: did the cross disannul the existence of all nations in the flesh? Does that mean that nations don't exist anymore? Have Egyptians ceased to be because of the cross? Or is it only Israel that ceased to be?
And please bear in mind that nationalities are only said to be no more in 2 ways in the NT:
1) In Christ (they are not eliminated outside of Christ, and lost people are outside of Christ)
2) In spirit (not in the flesh)
There are still males and females, in the flesh, are there not?

Apart from valid circumcision, these are gentiles who call themselves Jews and Israel.

 

[George Antonios]

Apart from valid circumcision, these are gentiles who call themselves Jews and Israel.

You didn't answer the question bro.Dave
You're saying that only Israel ceased?!

 

[1689Dave]

You didn't answer the question bro.Dave
You're saying that only Israel ceased?!

God removed unbelievers from Israel leaving only Believing Israel aka the Church. Any who accept Christ he will reattach. But they remain gentiles with Jewish ethnicity until then.

 

[George Antonios]

God removed unbelievers from Israel leaving only Believing Israel aka the Church. Any who accept Christ he will reattach. But they remain gentiles with Jewish ethnicity until then.

Well now, you just flinched with the "Jewish ethnicity" part haha, and that's ok my friend.
Imagine, you just erased the only nation which God specifically said he would preserve. Just amazing.

 

[1689Dave]

Well now, you just flinched with the "Jewish ethnicity" part haha, and that's ok my friend.
Imagine, you just erased the only nation which God specifically said he would preserve. Just amazing.

The Church is the holy nation.

“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:” 1 Peter 2:9 (KJV 1900)

The Talmudic Jews claim Jesus is in hell boiling in feces. John calls them Antichrists for denying Jesus the messiah came in the flesh. Not good company to claim.

 

[George Antonios]

The Church is the holy nation.

“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:” 1 Peter 2:9 (KJV 1900)

The Talmudic Jews claim Jesus is in hell boiling in feces. John calls them Antichrists for denying Jesus the messiah came in the flesh. Not good company to claim.

Wholly beside the point under discussion (and not entirely true).
And I thought there was no "them"; remember? Woops! Forgot your own doctrine there didn't you?!

 

[1689Dave]

Wholly beside the point under discussion (and not entirely true).
And I thought there was no "them"; remember? Woops! Forgot your own doctrine there didn't you?!

If the Church is the holy nation, and the Christ rejecters are not, how can it be beside the point?