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The Significance of 144,000

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Protestant, Oct 31, 2019.

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  1. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    The Significance of 144,000

    Having proven the identity of the 144,000 as those Elect, both Jew and Gentile, using Scripture alone in my previous post, I now turn to the significance of this number.

    The Lord is using a figure of speech called synecdoche.

    In other words, He is using the number 144,000 to represent the much larger number of those Elect who are to be saved throughout the New Testament dispensation. The number of those Elect are described in Revelation 7:9-17, a great multitude which no man could number of all nations, kindreds, peoples and tongues.

    They came out of great tribulation, proving the Lord’s word true: In the world ye shall have tribulation (John 16:33); they have been kept and protected from eternal harm by the evil one (John 17:15); they have overcome the world because Christ overcame the world (John 16:33).

    And because they have overcome the world, the flesh and the Devil, they enjoy several privileges: from eating freely of the tree of life and hidden manna, whereby the second death no longer holds a threat, to being given a white stone (signifying ‘not guilty’), among a plentitude of other blessings (cf. Rev. 2-3).

    It is by no strange coincidence the saints described in Revelation 14 as being with the Lamb in heaven are also numbered at 144,000. By so doing, the Lord informs us that not one of His Elect will be lost, no matter the extent of trials and tribulation experienced on Earth. The words of Jesus are true: He loses not one given Him by the Father (John 6:39; 17:12); they shall never perish (John 10:28-29).

    The innumerable numbers of Elect all have the same spiritual qualities:

    1. They do not have the mark or name of the Beast written in their foreheads. Instead, they have the name of their Heavenly Holy Father, signifying the God who has their total allegiance, love and loyalty, not the pseudo-holy father of Rome.

    2. The new song which they sing – a song which no unregenerate, carnal man can sing – is that song which gives all glory to God in Christ for their salvation. There is no mention of good works, free will, righteous decisions, church membership or saint and angel worship… For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

    3. They are virgins, undefiled with women. This analogy is not literal, but spiritual, for marriage is honorable in all, and the bed undefiled. They have either renounced their previous spiritual adultery, or they were never participants in the first place.

    4. They follow the Lamb, their Shepherd, wherever he goes, proving the Lord’s words, My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

    5. They are the redeemed, who were lost, blind and dead in sins and trespasses. For such the Lord gave His life (John 10:15; Luke 19:10).

    6. They are without fault, blameless in the eyes of the Lord. The righteousness of Christ has been imputed to their spiritual account. They have exercised God’s gracious gift of faith resulting in their justification (2 Cor. 5:21; Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 5;1).

    7. They speak no guile, i.e. cunningly deceptive language which perverts God’s truth, unlike the false prophets and antichrists who come in the name of Christ claiming to speak with authority from God.

    NEXT: The 144,000 and New Jerusalem.
     
    #1 Protestant, Oct 31, 2019
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  2. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    The 144,000 and New Jerusalem

    And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband (Rev. 21:2).

    In this verse the Lord uses literary devices called personification and simile.

    The observant Bible student will immediately be struck by the contrary nature of this great city and the great city described in Revelation 17 – Mystery Babylon, the great whore.

    The two cities are metaphors for two distinct churches, each claiming to be Christ’s true church.

    Whereas Mystery Babylon has its origin in Rome, the city of 7 hills, ruled by the Dragon (Rev. 12:3; 13:4), New Jerusalem has its origin in Heaven, ruled by the true God.

    And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God (verse 3).

    In this verse the Lord dispels any confusion as to which church is the true church. The true church is a holy virgin (verse 2), faithful to the bridegroom, while the false church is an unfaithful harlot, fornicating with a plethora of false gods whom she worships and serves with brazen abandon. Furthermore, she is the one who murders the true Christians, believing she is doing service to the true God (Rev. 17:6; John 16:2). She obediently follows the commands and character of her spiritual god and master, Satan (John 8:44).

    And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

    And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

    Having the glory of God (verses 9-11a).

    This metaphor, which compares the city, holy Jerusalem, to that of the holy bride of Christ, His true church, has been established previously in Scripture:

    Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

    That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

    That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish……This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church (Ephesians 5:25-32).

    For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I haves espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ (2 Cor. 11:2).

    This city/bride/church shines with the glory of God, as does the Woman described in Revelation 12, another metaphor for Christ’s true church, as well as a synecdoche. For the one represents the many who comprise the elect bride of Christ. (cf. Rev. 12:1— ‘clothed with the sun.’)

    The number 12 is predominant in chapter 21:

    12 gates

    12 angels

    12 tribes

    12 foundations

    12 apostles

    12 pearls

    The number 12 is an allusion to Christ’s true church, consisting of its members and doctrines, both of which are pure, without the blemish of sin or error. Their purity is alluded to through use of metaphors which compare them to precious stones and street of pure gold.

    [An interesting side note: verse 21 tells us the 12 gates, though 12 pearls, were also 1 pearl. The Parable of the Pearl of Great Price can be viewed likewise with a double meaning. The Pearl may be viewed as Christ, (the most popular view), but may also be viewed as His Elect, whom He purchased with his own blood, Acts 20:28; 1Peter 1:18-19.]

    12 is also a predominant number of the 144,000

    144,000 is equivalent to 144 X 1,000.

    144 has 12 as its root, thereby signifying these are they who will populate the holy city, Jerusalem, whose mystical number is 12.

    The Holy City is a cube of 12,000 furlongs

    This number is also found within the 144,000.

    12,000 X 12 = 144,000.

    CONCLUSION

    Our Lord has determined, from eternity, the number and names of those upon whom He willed to have mercy and compassion. Their names have always been written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. They have been loved from eternity, predestined to be conformed in the image of His Son (Jeremiah 31;3; John 15:27; Romans 8:29; Rev. 1:5). This number cannot and will not be diminished nor enlarged, for the structure has been designed by a Divine Structural Engineer whose architectural plans are perfect and, as such, without need for change or improvement whatsoever.

    NEXT: The Two Witnesses
     
    #2 Protestant, Nov 4, 2019
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  3. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 11: The Two Witnesses, Part 1

    And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

    In the previous chapter John was commanded to eat a little book, resulting in his prophesying again. The little book contained crucial information necessary to faithfully carry out the task set before him.

    In the first verse of chapter 11 we are immediately confronted with several choices of interpretation. Is the temple literal of 1st century Judaism? If so, the Apocalypse must have a date written before its destruction. This date would contradict the unanimous historical record of Christian thought for nearly 1800 years.

    Is the temple one yet to be built? Perhaps it is the so-called 3rd temple imagined by Dispensationalists. Unfortunately, speculation cannot be proven. However, what can be proven is the fact that the Temple Mount is under the control of Muslims who would rather die through worldwide Holy War than allow their sacred site to fall into the hands of the Jews. Furthermore, the 1st century temple was destroyed as proof the promised Messiah had come and the need for animal sacrificing was finished. Julian the Apostate’s attempt to rebuild the temple in the 4th century ended in failure, a further sign against the probability of such an endeavor ever succeeding.

    The third and unanimous view of theologians for centuries is the New Testament biblical definition of the temple of God. We Christians are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Further explanation can be found here and here.

    Armed with God’s Word firmly planted into the core of his very being, John was now commanded to measure, using the Word of God alone, that which was the anti-type of the Jerusalem temple: professing Christianity.

    Just as not all Israel are of Israel, not all professing Christians are true Christians of the true Church.

    TO BE CONTINUED………..
     
    #3 Protestant, Nov 10, 2019
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  4. Oseas3

    Oseas3 Active Member

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    Wonderful post and conclusion. I see the fulfilment of 1Cor.12:v.4-10 in your post, mainly verses 7&8.

    About number 12, I remembered of Joshua chapter 4: the 12 stones taken from the middle of river Jordan.

    From the departure of the people of Israel from Egypto, to cross the Red Sea, the 40-year journey into the desert, to cross the Jordan River, to enter or to conquer the Promised Land, we have a number of details which if analyzed spiritually one by one we can extract a deep insight into what we will have to face at this end time to enter the kingdom of God prepared from the foundation of the world. We must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
    Acts 14: v.22
     
    #4 Oseas3, Nov 10, 2019
  5. Shoostie

    Shoostie Active Member

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    You say the Jerusalem above represents the true church. How did you rule out the Jerusalem below as the great whore?
     
    #5 Shoostie, Nov 10, 2019
  6. Oseas3

    Oseas3 Active Member

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    I think he meant that although Jerusalem is mentioned as the Great Prostitute in Revelation 17, there is also a wonderful new Jerusalem described in Revelation 21: v.9-27.
    Actually the present Jerusalem, the Jerusalem that exists today, where also our Lord was crucified, spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt.

    By the way, Israel returned to Palestine in 1.948 after 1.878 years of terrible punishments by crucifying the Son of God - JESUS - whose punishments occurred in fulfilment the plagues written by Moses against the Jews in Deuteronomy 28:v.15to68.

    From 1948 to 2018 has passed 70 years, so the time of manifestation of the man of sin, the son of perdition or the man doomed to perdition has arrived, in fulfilment of the prophecy written in 2Thessalonians 2:v.3-4&9-10: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    The son o perdition, a Jewish man, a former Cherub, though he be the own Satan incarnated, he will manifest himself as a messiah - AN IMPOSTER - (Revelation 13:11-18), he has two horns like a lamb (a false lamb), he will sit and will be enthroned in the temple of God, in the great city of Jerusalem, called spiritually Sodom and Egypt, and he will exalt himself above all that is called God, and will oppose all that is worshipped; so that he as God will sit in the temple of God, saying to the whole world that he himself is God.


    This Beast like a lamb (Rev. 13:v.11-18), a false messiah, AN IMPOSTOR, will make a deal with the FIRST Beast (Rev.13:1-10), that which has rose up out of the sea since ancient time, i.e. he rose up out of the midist of the Gentile peoples, precisely in Rome, Italy, and both Beasts will build a religious and Universal and satanic Empire, Catholicism and Judaism, that is the fifth and last Empire, showed in the feet and its 10 toes of the Great Statue (Check it in Dan.2:41-45), iron mixed with clay, that is the Roman Catholic Church (iron) mixed with Judaism (clay).


    The FIRST Beast will reign FIRST for a period of 42 months or 1.260 days as was prophesied in Rev.13:v.5, afterwards will reign the second Beast in a second period of 1260 days, that is the Beast like a lamb, but speaks as a Dragon (Rev.13:11-18),
    then will be established the abomination of desolation through enthronization of the Beast like a Lamb as a Messiah in the temple of God, in the city of Jerusalem that spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt (Rev.11:v.8) .

    And JESUS warned, saying: Matthew 24:v.15 and 21-24

    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet (Daniel 12:v.11), stand in the holy place - in the temple of God - (whoso readeth, let him understand):

    21 For then shall be great tribulation (Daniel 12:v.1), such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
    23 Then if any man (Pastors, Bishops, Theologians, among others) shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ (the Messiah), or there; believe it not.
    24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders (2Thes.2:v.9-10); insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
     
    #6 Oseas3, Nov 11, 2019
  7. Shoostie

    Shoostie Active Member

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    He apparently holds the doctrine, of which I disagree, that Revelation tells of a future apostate church which it calls the great whore. I was simply asking how he ruled out the more likely interpretation that the whore is the Jerusalem below, especially as he's contrasting it with the Jerusalem above. Yes, Revelation also unmistakably calls the Jerusalem below Sodom and Egypt.



    I disagree with your doctrine. Why God would lift the punishment of the Jews when they haven't repented and turned to Christ? Why would God restore the city figuratively called Sodom and Egypt. Why would God restore the great whore to continue whoring?

    1948 is an attempt to defy God's judgement.
     
    #7 Shoostie, Nov 11, 2019
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  8. Oseas3

    Oseas3 Active Member

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    As you know, Revelation is the last book of the Bible, a former sealed book of 7 seals that was with God the Father, which was delivered unto JESUS after His ascention having sit down at the right hand of the Father. And God gave the book to Him to open or break the 7 seals and revealing its contents unto His servants through His angel (by the way, a strong angel, actually an archangel) Rev.1:v.1.

    Only after around 65 years of His ascention He revealed the entire contents of Revelation, or around year 95AD. Therefore, it was really Revelation speaking of a future apostate church, actually this apostate church was already being strongly structured and growing on the earth in that time.

    That said, this apostate church has today around two thousand years and it is(by allegory)sat upon 7 heads of the blasphemer Beast of the sea, (sea means waters, and waters mean peoples, and nations, multitudes and tongues-Rev.17:v.15), and the 7 heads of the blasphemer Beast are(by allegory) 7 mountains on which the apostate church is sat, which are Europe, and Asia, Africa, Oceania(Australia), North America, Central America and South America. By the way, the headquarters of the Beast of sea and the apostate church which (by allegory) is a woman, and she rides upon the Beast, yeah, its headquater is the Vatican city that also was/is built on 7 hills.

    However, the worse for happening very soon is the appearance of the Jewish Beast of the earth (earth is Israel), with two horns like a lamb     (a false lamb, a false messiah of the Jews, AN IMPOSTER) and he speak as a Dragon.(Rev.13:v.11). Then there will be TWO devilish and terrorific Beast on the Earth.

    This second Beast, the false messiah of the Jews, AN IMPOSTOR, will exercise all the power of the FIRST Beast    (the blasphemer Beast of the sea and his woman-the Great Whore) before him, and will cause the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the FIRST Beast that will have one of the 7 heads wounded mortally, whose deadly wound will be healed. Actually the Dragon, the ESOTERIC/ SPIRITIST /KABBALISTIC false messiah of the Jews, will give to the Beast of the sea his Power, and his Throne, and great Authority.

    And the false messiah will do great wonders, so that he will make fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, and will deceive them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the blasphemer Beast of the sea; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the Beast, which had the wound by a Sword, and did live.

    And the peoples, and nations, and multitudes, and tongues, will worship the Dragon which will give power unto the Beast of sea and his apostate and satanic church: and they will worshipp also the Beast of sea saying, Who is like unto the Beast? who is able to make War with him?

    Yeah, who is able to make War with him? Revelation 12:v.7to17 reveals who is able to make War against the Dragon o 7 heads, 10 horns and a terrorific TAIL. Revelation 2:v.26-29

    26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
    27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
    28 And I will give him the morning star.
    29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
     
    #8 Oseas3, Nov 11, 2019
  9. Shoostie

    Shoostie Active Member

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    You said the Jews were punished for crucifying the Son of God. I simply asked you why God would lift the punishment when the Jews haven't repented of that sin. I didn't see anything in your post that answered that question.
     
    #9 Shoostie, Nov 12, 2019
  10. Oseas3

    Oseas3 Active Member

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    Oseas3 said: ↑
    [blah blah blah]

    My message was about your post #7 quoted above, where you comment about APOSTATE church. And I said that apostate CHURCH has today around two thousand years and it is(by allegory)sat upon 7 heads of the blasphemer Beast of the sea, (sea means waters, and waters mean peoples, and nations, multitudes and tongues as is written in Revelation 17:v.15).

    And the 7 heads of the blasphemer Beast are(by allegory) 7 mountains on which the APOSTATE church is sat, WHOSE 7 HEADS are Europe, and Asia, Africa, Oceania(Australia), North America, Central America and South America. By the way, the HEADQUARTER of the Beast of sea and the apostate CHURCH which (by allegory) is a woman, she rides upon the Beast of 7 heads an 10 horns, SPIRITUALLY A MONSTER, yeah, its headquater is the Vatican city that also was/is built on 7 hills.

    And the 7 heads of the blasphemer Beast of the sea, they are(by allegory) 7 mountains, on which the APOSTATE CHURCH IS SAT, they are Europe, and Asia, Africa, Oceania(Australia), North America, Central America and South America.


    Well, the last and FINAL PUNISHMENT will happen from now on, as I wrote the worse for happening very soon is the appearance of the Jewish Beast, the Beast of the earth with two horns like a lamb (a false lamb, a false messiah of the Jews, AN IMPOSTER) and he speaks as a Dragon (Rev.13:v.11).
    Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.

    And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. And for this cause GOD shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That
    they all might be DAMNED who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. ONLY 144.000 WILL BE SAVED. Revelation 7:v.1-8

    Then there will be TWO devilish and terrorific Beast on the Earth.

    This second Beast, the false messiah of the Jews, AN IMPOSTOR, will exercise all the power of the FIRST Beast     (the blasphemer Beast of the sea and his woman-the Great Whore) before him, and will cause the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the FIRST Beast that will have one of the 7 heads wounded mortally, whose deadly wound will be healed.

    Actually the Dragon, the ESOTERIC/ SPIRITIST /KABBALISTIC false messiah of the Jews, will give to the Beast of the sea his Power, and his Throne, and great Authority. The Antichrist's Empire is established in the Earth. Iron mixed with clay. The fifth and last Empire as was prophesied by Daniel about the feet and 10 toes of the Great Statue.

    And the false messiah will do great wonders, so that he will make fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, and will deceive them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the blasphemer Beast of the sea; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the Beast, which had the wound by a Sword, and did live.

    And the peoples, and nations, and multitudes, and tongues, will worship the Dragon which will give power unto the Beast of sea and his APOSTATE and SATANIC church: and they will worshipp also the Beast of sea saying, Who is like unto the Beast? who is able to make War with him? Revelation 13:v.4

    Yeah, who is able to make War with him? Revelation 12:v.7to17 reveals who is able to make War against the Dragon of 7 heads, 10 horns and a terrorific TAIL.

    Revelation 2:v.26-29

    26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
    27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
    28 And I will give him the morning star.
    29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

    What I say to you I say to everyone
     
    #10 Oseas3, Nov 12, 2019
  11. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 11 - The Two Witnesses: Part 2

    But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months (v. 2).

    Once the Christian reader grasps the fact that the angel is describing both visible worshippers [the outer court] and invisible worshippers [within the temple], it becomes apparent all New Testament professing Christianity, both true and false, both wheat and tares, are being described under Old Testament tropes.

    The Word of God given John is the means by which he is to discern which are the true versus which are the false.

    Furthermore, we should understand by the term ‘Gentiles’ unbelievers are described. These unbelievers will claim to be Christians, part of God’s true Church, yet will through great power tyrannize God’s true Church, also called ‘the holy city’ in Rev. 21:2.

    This ‘holy city,’ the faithful virgin bride of Christ, is viewed in contradistinction to the unholy city, Mystery Babylon, the unfaithful whore claiming betrothal to Christ.

    Both cities are metaphors for churches which claim Christ, yet only one fits the description of a murdering aggressor who eagerly spills the blood of the innocent.

    The history of the Church clearly delineates who were the murderers and who were the innocent victims, though both professed Christ. The fact of Christ’s murder, as well as the murders of all OT prophets by those professing loyalty to the true God, is too similar to that of the New Testament Christian martyrs to be dismissed as mere coincidence.

    The enmity which our Lord placed between the two seeds (Genesis 3:15) was no hyperbole.

    To be continued……….
     
    #11 Protestant, Nov 13, 2019
  12. Shoostie

    Shoostie Active Member

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    Yet again, you haven't explained how you ruled out the Jerusalem below as the whore of Babylon, the apostate city. Jerusalem is unfaithful (a whore that killed Jesus). It's on seven hills. it's people spent time captivity, for apostasy, in Babylon adopting its paganism.

    There is nothing in Revelation to link anything to the Roman Catholic church, a church that becomes less relevant with every passing year. You can say Rome is on 7 hills, by reputation, but so is Jerusalem, and Jerusalem is far more relevant to Revelation. The Vatican itself isn't Rome and has no authority over Rome! How seriously defective does your doctrine have to be for you to rethink it?

    Revelation 17 tells us the hills that the whore sits on are also heads which represent seven kings. Five has fallen, one is yet to come. The seven heads are a series of kings of one nation, not seven continents, as you assert. Also, five had already passed when Revelation was written, and one was present when Revelation was written, and one was yet to come. The Roman Catholic church didn't exist at the time of Revelation's writing.
     
    #12 Shoostie, Nov 13, 2019
  13. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    That's not a synedoche. Maybe some other figure of speech, maybe allegory, but not a synedoche.
     
    #13 Rob_BW, Nov 14, 2019
  14. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 11 – The Two Witnesses: Part 3

    And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

    But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

    And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth (vs. 1-3).

    The command to ‘measure the altar’ has great significance. For by it we Christians are to understand the sacrifice of Christ, its intent and efficacy.

    It is this crucial ‘measurement’ of Christ’s atonement which has divided the two Churches [i.e. the true vs. the false] for a millennium. On the one hand, the doctrine of Transubstantiation mandated a continual propitiatory sacrifice of ‘Christ’ offered to the Father. Contrarily, those who opposed this ‘celebration of the Mass,’ insisted Christ’s sacrifice was perfected at the cross, never to be repeated, according to Hebrews 9:27-28 & 10:10, 12, 14, 18, 29. Moreover, a sacrifice of bread claiming to be the very flesh, blood, soul and divinity of God the Son after consecration by a priest was blasphemy.

    It was a matter of life and death as to how one answered the Inquisitor’s question concerning the change of substance in the wafer.

    Centuries before the Protestant Reformers refuted the unbiblical God-dishonoring doctrine of Transubstantiation, the so-called ‘heretics’ views as to the heterodox nature of Transubstantiation can be found here and here. A prime example of death decreed upon the denial of Transubstantiation may be found here.

    To be continued……..
     
    #14 Protestant, Nov 15, 2019
  15. Oseas3

    Oseas3 Active Member

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    Revelation 17: v.7 & 9-10 - The angel of the Lord says(not me):
    7 - I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the BEAST that carrieth her, which hath the 7 heads and 10 horns.
    9 - here is the mind which hath wisdom. The 7 heads are 7 mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
    10 And there are 7 kings: 5 are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. (exactly 42 months or 1.260 days)
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    The book of Revelation was written around year 95AD and the prophecies reveal many things would happen in the future (Revelation 1:v.1), not of the past time. We are living in the time of Apocalypse, this gives us a better condition to interpret the book of Revelation.

    In my understanding you are being very very evasive and speaking things of your own spirit and without any biblical support. It is evident that for you be more precise and true, you should interpret unto us in accord Scriptures:

    The angel of the Lord says: I will tell thee: - the mystery of the woman, and of the BEAST that carrieth her, which hath the 7 heads and 10 horns.

    Questions about the mystery told by the angel of the Lord, as follow :

    1 - Who is the Beast which has 7 heads and 10 horns? By the way, is there any Beast in Jerusalem today? If so, who is this man? Jerusalem is called spiritually Sodom and Egypt, right?

    2 - the 7 heads are 7 mountains: Which are these 7 mountains mentioned in Revelation? We know that there are 7 mountains in the Vatican City, and in Lisbon-Portugal, and in Spain, and in others countries. You know the woman is sat in all nations of the Earth.

    3 - who is this woman? The angel of the Lord says that the woman sitteth on the 7 heads of the Beast that carries her.
    See, who are this Beast and the woman which rides upon the Beast, knowing that she is sat upon many waters besides the 7 mountains, which are the 7 heads of the Beast? Waters? Waters are peoples, nations, multitudes and tongues, right: Rev.17:v.15

    4 - Regard the 10 horns of the Beast, what do you say of them? They are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but will receive power as kings one hour with the Beast (Rev.17:v.12). Who are these 10 kings?

    5 - There are also 7 kings: 5 are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. Rev.17:v.10 (exactly 42 months or 1.260 days). Who are these 7 kings?


    I know that there are a lot of speculations, and presumptions, and conjectures about these MYSTERIES, but one thing is right: There is only and only one true answer for each question, and so for all. What are your answers for each question above with support of Scriptures? The angel of the Lord gives us the clues for true answers item by item.

    I and maybe all the readers here would like to hear from you what you have to teach us about this mystery revealed by JESUS, whose Spirit is the spirit of prophecy.


    In my understanding what has nothing to do with Revelation are the foolish things of your argument, you are being very very evasive and speaking things of your own empty spirit and without any biblical support. It is evident that for you be more precise and true, you should interpret unto us in accord Scriptures.


    Again you are being very very evasive and speaking things of your own spirit and without any biblical support. It is evident that for you be more precise and true, you should interpret unto us in accord Scriptures:

    Firstly was named as Catholic Church, later was added Roman. By the way this blasphemer and satanic woman - satanic church - which rides upon the Beast of 7 heads and 10 horns, states Peter the Apostle as her 1st Pope. The followers of this idolater and devilish Church are condemned to eternal perdition. Revelation 21:v.8. Check it, check this biblical support.
     
    #15 Oseas3, Nov 17, 2019
  16. Shoostie

    Shoostie Active Member

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    1 - Any corrupt nation is a beast, which includes Israel today, and maybe especially Israel. But, why does it have to be "today"? Yes, Jerusalem is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt in Revelation, and is called a whore many times in the OT. What's your point?

    2 - Vatican City doesn't sit on seven hills, let alone on all the nations of the Earth.

    3 - No objection to waters.

    4 - Who are those 10 kings?

    5 - Who are those 7 kings?



    You should deal with the log in your eye.
     
    #16 Shoostie, Nov 17, 2019
  17. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 11 – The Two Witnesses: Part 4

    And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

    These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth (vs. 3-4).

    The identity of the two witnesses has confused many for various reasons. The Roman Catholic Church has typically identified them as Enoch and Elijah because they were translated to ‘Paradise’ without experiencing death. Thus, since Scripture clearly states, it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, these two fulfill the requirement not having yet died. The two witnesses will be killed according to verse 7.

    A second more popular view held by many today identifies the two witnesses as Moses and Elijah. Their reasoning is based on the miracles of Moses and Elijah as portrayed in the Old Testament. They exactly parallel the judgments of Revelation 11.

    However, there is another view which has been acknowledged as the correct view for centuries among the Protestant Reformed churches.

    The two witnesses are not limited to two literal people.

    They, like the 144,000, are a synecdoche representing all God’s people through the ages who have been given a calling and anointing to preach both for Christ and against Antichrist.

    The sackcloth symbolizes the typical garb of OT prophets who voiced God’s extreme displeasure and coming judgment of those of Israel who rebel against the Most High.

    Sackcloth represents mourning at the state of affairs in what was the House of God, Israel.

    In Revelation 11 sackcloth represents God’s prophets mourning at the state of affairs in what is the professing New Testament Church of God.

    The olive trees symbolize the anointing of the Holy Spirit which empowers Christ’s witnesses to discern the evil in the Church, publicly identify that evil, while pronouncing the judgment of God upon such evil. This uncensored bold preaching will lead to their deaths.

    They are called two candlesticks because they bring light to the darkness within the Church. The darkness is both moral and doctrinal.

    They are two, symbolizing the minimum number of witnesses required to establish a fact, as stated in Deuteronomy 9:15, John 8:17 & 2 Corinthians 13:1, to name a few Scriptures. Additionally, these godly truth tellers are few compared to the army of locust-like false prophets (Rev. 9).

    The two witnesses stand before the true God, symbolizing their right standing through justification by faith alone in Christ alone. In other words, these are not false prophets.

    And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

    These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will (vs. 5-6).

    Just as the prophet John the Baptist was sent in the spirit and power of Elijah (Luke 1:13-17; Matthew 11:13-14), God’s New Testament prophets are likewise sent in the spirit and power of Elijah and Moses.

    Like Moses and Elijah, these prophets’ mission was to free God’s elect from spiritual bondage, including the worshiping of false gods and the practice of idolatry; all of which the true God finds detestable and worthy of death.

    Like Elijah, they are ‘troublers of Israel,’ causing chaos amongst the ranks of religious, be they monks, friars, priests, bishops, or Popes.

    The fire proceeding from their mouths is a metaphor for God’s Word which consumes the lies of His enemies:

    Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them (Jeremiah 5:14).

    These prophets will be ‘hurt’ by various means, as was the Apostle Paul (2 Corinthians 11:23-28).

    Unlike the Babylonian Church, these prophets do not literally ‘kill’ their adversaries. Rather, they engage in the spiritual warfare of biblical polemics which results in the enemies of Christ dying a spiritual death: For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds. Thus, the meaning of the verse, and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

    These prophets have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy. This, too, is a metaphor predicting a spiritual drought upon those who oppose the truth preached by God’s prophets. It was used in Isaiah 5:6:

    And I will lay it [my vineyard, Israel] waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.

    And in Amos 8:11:

    “Behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord GOD, “That I will send a famine on the land, Not a famine of bread, Nor a thirst for water, But of hearing the words of the LORD.

    This same judgment of God is seen in Matthew 13:13-15:

    Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

    And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

    For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

    “Turning the water to blood,” as well as “smiting the earth with all plagues” are also metaphorical phrases. The former represents how the water by the Word will not cleanse, being a savour of life unto life, but will instead be a savour of death unto death (Ephesians 5:26; 2Corinthians 2:16). The latter represents the doom predicted to all who hold to worldly precepts, being as earthly and carnal minded as the heathen, though professing to be among the spiritually faithful.

    Furthermore, these witnesses ‘plague’ the false Christians in the sense of vexing their conscience by having their sins publicly exposed and rebuked, (as was Herod by John the Baptist), while preaching the eternal judgment of God which awaits them.

    To be continued……..
     
    #17 Protestant, Nov 19, 2019
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  18. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    My understanding is that the internal evident of Revelation requires an early date, with the prophecies affecting the first readers. The "proof" of a late date, quoting Irenaeus, quoting Polycarp is dubious. The references to the temple & the fall of Jerusalem in ch 11 indicate a date before the AD 70 destruction.

    The 144,000 will then be a perfect number of all the redeemed from Israel, bearing in mind the vast numbers of Jews saved during the ministry of John the baptist, Jesus himself & the Apostles as recorded in Acts.

    The 2 witnesses represent Moses & Elijah, the Law & the Prophets as quoted by Jesus to Dives in Luke 16 -
    22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

    25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

    27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

    29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

    30 “ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

    31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”    ​
     
    #18 Covenanter, Nov 20, 2019
  19. Shoostie

    Shoostie Active Member

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    I agree. The advocates of the late date of Revelation ignore the dubious nature of that late date so that they can insist Revelation was written too late to be about 70 AD. Atheists love the late dates, so they can insist the prophesies get details right because they were written after the events they predict.
     
    #19 Shoostie, Nov 20, 2019
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  20. Oseas3

    Oseas3 Active Member

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    Wrong completely, not only it is wrong, but it is also a lie. Besides being a murderer, Satan is a liar from the beginning, never remained in Truth because there is no Truth in him-the Word/God is Truth-Deut.32: v.4- and God is Spirit-John 4:v.24. When Satan speaks a lie, he speaks of his own-John 8.44.

    By the way, the Jews/Israel, leaded and guided by the spirit of Satan, they refused/despised JESUS(John 1:v.11)it until today:

    (1st) First because Israel rebelled against the house of David unto this day-1Kings 11:v.19 &16-18, and JESUS was/is of the house of David;

    (2nd) second they preferred Barabbas instead JESUS, even so in the way Satan would like it was. John 18:v.37-40

    My point is the Truth. God is Truth. John 16:v.12-15 & 17:v.17

    12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
    13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of Truth, is come, he will guide you into all Truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
    14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
    15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
    17:17 - Sanctify them through thy Truth: thy Word is Truth.


    Several cities in the world sit on seven hills or mountains.

    But Scripture is speaking of one specifically, and Scripture provides a reference point for the location of the seven hills. And here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sits (Rev.17:v.9). The woman is sat upon a Beast (a MAN, a SATANIC spiritual MONSTER) full of NAMES of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns-Rev.17:v.3 and Rev.12:v.3-4&7 and 13:v.1.

    And the woman sits also upon many waters-Rev. 17:v.15 and 17:v.1.

    Therefore, it is easy to understand which specific seven hills the Scriptures are talking about and where they are located.

    We can do nothing against the Truth, but for the Truth.

    [    QUOTE="Shoostie, post: 2545995, member: 15565"]4 - Who are those 10 kings?[/QUOTE]

    Here goes a clue. These ten kings have received no kingdom as yet; but will receive power as kings one hour with the Beast-Rev.13:v.1- the Beast of sea- upon which rides the woman-an idolater and satanic Church-, by allegory these 10 kings are symbolized by the CLAY of the 10 toes of the feet of the Great Image of Nebuchadnezzar, which are part of iron, and part of CLAY. The only nation made of CLAY is the nation of Israel, the IRON represent Gentile nations.

    The CLAY of the 10 toes represents the 10 tribes of Israel that will be united with the Beast of sea. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the Beast(of sea).Rev.17:v.13; Actually the Beast of sea will be crowned with 10 crowns when Israel, through its 10 tribes, be enthroned with the Beast of sea for one hour, or by a short time, actually 42 months or 1.260 days. Rev. 13:v.5 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. Rev. 17v.4. Well, the battle or the War is running.

    Yeah, who are these seven"kings" and what are the NAME or NICKNAME of each one of these seven "kings" (5 are fallen, one exists, the seventh have not manifest yet) within the religious hierarchy of the Papacy? For example, today the MAN-the blasphemer Beast of sea- that leads and guides the woman that rides upom him, who is the Beast of sea, his nickname is Francis.

    Detail important: The fulfilment of this prophecy of Revelation about the 7 kings, starts from 1.963 and ends in 1,978, because in this period of 15 years did reign the sixth "king", and the seventh was not elected yet until today, and with absolute certainty he will be the seventh and last of the Papacy.

    Remember, Scriptures say: Here is the mind which hath wisdom.
     
    #20 Oseas3, Nov 21, 2019
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