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The Significance of 144,000

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Protestant, Oct 31, 2019.

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  1. Shoostie

    Shoostie Active Member

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    If you're going to call me a liar, I expect you to do better than fall on your face with a big fat nothing. Speaking of lies, you tell one when you say Jews/Israel refused Jesus until today, which grammatically mean they no longer reject Jesus, but they still reject Jesus. Maybe you meant "refuse Jesus to this day"? (To which I ask, why did God lift their punishment, if they haven't repeated.)



    Listen very slowly, the Vatican is not Rome. The Vatican does not sit on seven hills. (To which I add, the irrelevancy of the Catholic Church makes it embarrassing to claim the Catholic Church is the Big Heavy in the alleged imminent end of the world.)
     
  2. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 11: The Two Witnesses – Part 5

    But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

    And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth (vs. 2-3).

    The Protestant Reformers researched ecclesiastic history using all the extant authoritative Roman Catholic sources. Matthias Flacius Illyricus and his team of scholars contributed the classic Magdeburg Centuries which formed a basis by which Protestants could refute the errors of Roman Catholicism using centuries of recognized Catholic authorities against them. Included in this seminal work was a section dedicated to exposing the Papal Antichrist and Mystery Babylon, having been named such by both Catholics and non: Catalogue of Witnesses for the Truth.

    John Bale and John Foxe were also instrumental in supplying further historical records of the Catholic Church which contained the trials and testimonies of their ‘heretical’ enemies, naming the Pope Antichrist and his church, Mystery Babylon.

    Needless to say, it quickly became apparent the timeline of these witnesses prophesying through the centuries was well in excess of 1260 days. Thus, the Day-Year Principle was utilized to better suit the prophetic interpretation. This biblical principle was seen in Numbers 14:34, Ezekiel 4:5-6, and Daniel 9’s prophecy of 70 weeks, whereby 1 week equals 7 years or 1 day equals 1 year.

    By so doing, the 1260 days translates to 1260 years, fitting the historic model which can be proved.

    Contrarily, the Roman Catholic Church took the literal approach to the 1260 days, positing the 3 ½ years either in the future, at the end of the world as do modern-day Dispensationalists, or positing it in the pagan Roman past, as do modern-day Preterists.

    42 Months = 1260 Days

    By no strange coincidence the holy city, aka the true Church (Rev. 21:2) is described as being persecuted and tyrannized by the Gentiles, aka false Christians, for 42 months. This translates into 1260 days, for prophetic months are 30 days in duration. (Source)

    In turn, the 1260 prophetic days may be considered 1260 prophetic years, using the Day-Year Principle.

    Conclusion: The witnesses of the true God oppose and expose the false Christians with their abominable morals, ceremonies and doctrines for the same duration as that of the anti-Christian apostates, until their Antichrist and anti-Christian kingdom is destroyed at Christ’s 2nd Coming (2 Thess. 1:8-9; 2:8-9; Rev. 19:1-3).

    NEXT: I will give unto my two witnesses.
     
  3. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    Shoostie wrote, "He apparently holds the doctrine, of which I disagree, that Revelation tells of a future apostate church which it calls the great whore. I was simply asking how he ruled out the more likely interpretation that the whore is the Jerusalem below, especially as he's contrasting it with the Jerusalem above. Yes, Revelation also unmistakably calls the Jerusalem below Sodom and Egypt."

    I will be dealing with the location of the 'street of the great city' in a future post.

    To answer your other point: The Revelation was given to Christ's servants (i.e., Elect), both to edify, warn and comfort them in what was to be a time of Great Tribulation lasting a minimum of 1260 years. John and his fellow believers had no need to be reminded of the crimes perpetrated by his nation of Israel. The history of Israel's apostasy was both well known and written for posterity in their Hebrew and Greek translated Scriptures. Rather, our Lord was giving a prophecy of a future apostasy, one of which John had not the slightest idea, for Rome at the time was far from Christianized, let alone the seat of a world wide heretical form of Christianity.
     
  4. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    The controversy over the dating of the Apocalypse is relatively new in Church history. 19th century Preterists in the Protestant churches had to fight an uphill battle, as the preponderance of Protestants were Historicists, many with a thorough expert knowledge of the writings of the Church Fathers through the centuries.

    Preterism and Futurism (generally speaking) both make the same fatal error.
    1. They deny the import of 2,000 years of Church history.
    2. They deny the import of the testimony of God's martyrs for at least 1,000 years.
    3. They deny the fulfillment of Antichrist in the Roman Papacy.
    4. They deny the fulfillment of Mystery Babylon in the Roman Catholic Church.

    Positing the Old & New Testament as the two witnesses is not an unusual interpretation. However, the Protestant Historicists who used this interpretation did not neglect the fact that these Testaments were the basis of the preaching carried out by human witnesses. It was humans who were persecuted and killed, not the two Testaments.
     
  5. Oseas3

    Oseas3 Active Member

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    What do the prophecies say? Isaiah 10:v.22-23 & Rom. 9:v.27, so only and only 144.000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel will be sealed in their foreheads and these will be saved, all the others Satan, that is the father of them, will carry them with him and they will be lost for ever and ever.

    Scripture reffers to specific seven hills and provides a clear reference where is the location of them. And here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sits (Rev.17:v.9). The woman is sat upon a Beast (a MAN, a SATANIC spiritual MONSTER) full of NAMES of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns-specifically the Beast of the sea. Revelation 17:v.3 and Revelation 12:v.3-4&7 and Revelation 13:v.1. And the woman sits also upon many waters-Rev. 17:v.15 and 17:v.1.

    Therefore, by/through the own Scriptures,
    it is easy to understand who is the woman, and wo is the Beast of sea, and which are the specific seven hills that Scriptures are talking about and where they are located. It is as said JESUS: Whoso readeth, let him understand.
     
  6. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 11: The Two Witnesses – Part 6

    And I will give (power) unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth (v. 2).

    The noun ‘power’ in this verse is not in the original Greek and has been added by the translators. Typically, when we read a Scripture which contains the translated noun as ‘power’ it refers to one of two kinds of ‘power’: having authority or having the ability, strength to perform something.

    An example of this is evidenced in Romans 9:21-22:

    Hath not the potter power [Gr: ‘authority’] over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

    What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power [Gr: ‘strength’] known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.

    Jesus reveals what is given His witnesses

    It is no point of controversy that all acknowledge the import of Jesus twice declaring, verily, verily, I say unto you. Yet many ignore the fact that Jesus declared four times how God will assist those witnesses who are dragged before men and councils to answer the charges brought against them.

    # 1 Matthew 10:16-20

    16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

    17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

    18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.

    19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

    20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

    # 2 Mark 13:9-11

    9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

    10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

    11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

    # 3 Luke 12:11-12

    11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:

    12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

    # 4 Luke 21:12:12-15

    12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

    13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

    14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

    15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

    Let the reader reflect on a few most extraordinary observations regarding the above-cited Scriptures:

    1- The importance the Holy Spirit has attached to this doctrine by stating it four separate times.

    2- It is Jesus Christ who states the doctrine.

    3- There is Holy Ghost testimony, words inspired by God, not man, which will be given after the canon of Scripture is completed.

    4- Although this Holy Ghost testimony is extra-biblical, it is nonetheless the Word of God.

    5- If this testimony were not important to Christians through the ages, it would not have been emphasized four times in Scripture.

    6- Jesus tells us persecution of the saints will come from within the professing family of God: the Church.

    7- The reason for the persecution will be due to the biblical faith the saints hold.

    8- God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit will inspire those who are brought before Church councils when they are interrogated.

    9- Their words of reply will not be carnal, nor will these words come from the wisdom of men.

    10- Their defense of the faith will not be refuted by the Church councilmen. It will be grounded only in biblical truth.

    11- The mouth promised by Jesus is reflected in the mouth given the two witnesses of Rev. 11. Holy Ghost fire emits from these prophets, signifying divine-inspiration.

    12- The wisdom promised by Jesus is that same wisdom which identifies the Beast through the number of his name (Rev. 13:8) as well as the seven hills upon which Mystery Babylon sits (Rev. 17:9).

    13- The Holy Ghost testimony of these prophets gives us, infallibly, the identity of Antichrist and Mystery Babylon.

    NEXT: Examples of Holy Ghost testimony.
     
  7. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Know what "Bah! Humbug!" means?

    Scripture plainly says the 144K will be Israelis, even calling them by tribe. (The Jews will have a triple portion, as they're made up of 3 tribes, Judah, Benjamin, & Levi.)

    The antichrist will be one man & so will his sidekick, the "beast from the earth", who could be a pope or some other high RC official. However, the antichrist won't recognize any god but himself, & most-likely, the beast from the earth will do likewise, as he will be able to do miracles only in the first beast's presence.

    The Vatican is in the middle of Rome & depends upon Rome for utilities & protection. They're inseparable, so any prophecy against Rome is also against the Vatican.

    The AC will rule mosta the world for 3.5 years, during which the great trib will hit. Soon as it's cut short, Jesus will return.
     
  8. Shoostie

    Shoostie Active Member

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    Assumption #1: The events that happen in Revelation are 21st century.
    Assumption #2: The city on seven hills mentioned in Revelation is Rome.
    Assumption #3: Because the Vatican presumably shares a power grid with Rome, what's said of Rome really applies to the Vatican.

    A doctrine that requires three dubious assumptions (actually, more than that) is something you should share in a Pentecostal forum. They eat up nonsense.
     
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  9. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 11: The Two Witnesses - Part 7

    Before presenting historic examples of Holy Ghost testimony by those who were brought before the Roman Catholic authorities to answer for their religious crimes against the Church, a review of New Testament examples is in order.

    As stated previously, Jesus had promised not only His Father and Holy Spirit would sovereignly speak through His witnesses, but He, too, would sovereignly give them a mouth and wisdom which could not be refuted by their adversaries (Matt. 10; Mark 13; Luke 12 & 21).

    ACTS 4

    Peter and John were arrested for preaching the Gospel. When formally confronted by the Jewish authorities, Scripture tells us, Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them……

    After Peter unhesitantly confessed Christ, Scripture states, Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marveled…and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus. For they had no ‘official’ certification by the religious authorities to do so, nor would they be getting such certification.

    Like Christ’s witnesses through the centuries, Peter, John and those with them refused to be silent, preaching the truth despite the threats against life and limb.

    And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them……And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

    Acts 6

    And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

    9 Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen.

    10 And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake.

    These types of disputations were to be all too common between Christ’s witnesses and the Roman Catholic religious authorities through the centuries, as the Inquisitional records attest.

    And they stirred up the people, and the elders, and the scribes, and came upon him, and caught him, and brought him to the council….. And all that sat in the council, looking stedfastly on him, saw his face as it had been the face of an angel.

    In this verse we have confirmation the 7 angels of the 7 churches were not literal angelic beings, but were prophets filled with the Spirit, given a mouth and wisdom; angel-messengers sent to God’s people to preach encouragement, rebuke, repentance and judgment.

    Stephen’s reward for delivering his uncompromising, politically incorrect sermon was death by stoning. So, too, would Christ’s witness-messengers testifying through the ages meet with such a brutal demise.

    Stephen exposed their sins of idolatry, false worship, persecution, betrayal and murder of all the prophets sent by God. This same message has been delivered time and time again by the true saints of God against the Roman Catholic Church. Stephen was put to death for his Christian witness by the very ones who claimed the true God their Father. This is exactly what Jesus prophesied (John 16:2). History attests Christ’s prophecy held true, as seen in the deaths of untold numbers of Christians since the martyrdom of Stephen.

    Acts 13

    6 And when they [Barnabas, Paul and John) had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus:

    7 Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God.

    8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.

    9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.

    10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

    Elymas, a sorcerer and false prophet was a Jew who claimed belief in the true God. He opposed the Gospel and those preaching it. Paul, discerning the true nature of this adversary by the power of the Holy Ghost, rebuked him, decreeing God’s judgment against him.

    In like manner, Christ’s witnesses throughout the ages discerned the true nature of their Roman Catholic false prophet opponents by exposing the satanic sorcery involved in promulgating the doctrine of Transubstantiation among the throngs of naïve, ignorant, trusting Catholics.

    Sadly, we are told in Revelation 9 repentant turning from such wicked idolatrous practices will not happen for most:

    20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

    21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

    Next: Examples of historic Holy Ghost witnesses for the truth.
     
  10. MartyF

    MartyF Well-Known Member

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    You do realize the 144,000 are virgins, right?
     
  11. Shoostie

    Shoostie Active Member

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    The woman is the unbelieving Jews and the city of seven hills is Jerusalem. I'm glad we finally agree, through scripture it's easy to understand this.
     
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  12. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

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    Somehow this fact always escapes them. Not only are they virgins, they are males too.
     
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  13. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Can you **PROVE** otherwise ? Of course not.
     
  14. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Not necessarily. That Scripture might mean those people have never worshipped idols, etc.
     
    #34 robycop3, Nov 29, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2019
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  15. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Nupe. The city is Rome, which has been known as "the city of 7 hills" since BC times. Jerusalem was not ever "the city which reigns over the kings of the earth".

    You both have the right to be wrong.
     
  16. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    I believe the Scriptures here hop between literal & symbolic. The 144K will be literal Israelis, but I believe "women" refers to idolatry. When I married my wife, I was not "defiled" by her.
     
  17. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

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    Defiled: to corrupt the purity or perfection of; to violate the chastity or virginity of

    Source
     
  18. Shoostie

    Shoostie Active Member

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    The Vatican controls no kings and controls nothing but it's own property. Rome controls no kings except its own. And, and rather than reining over any king, Rome is reigned over by the EU government. But, if you want to argue "reigns over the kings of the earth" applies to the first century, and you accept "the earth" as the small amount of the globe controlled by Rome, then you have first-century argument. Do you want to advocate first-century Rome?

    Israel has much more control over the kings of the world than does Rome. Israel, via the US, influences the whole middle-east. Jews have outsized influence, including the ability greater control of US culture than does the Christian majority (which the US is quickly being relieved of, in great part because of said Jews). Today, there's no contest between Jerusalem and Rome, today.

    A first-century for Jerusalem would be its spiritually corrupting influence over other kings, rather than direct political control.
     
  19. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Remember, the angel told John that the woman is that city that reigns(present tense) over the kings of the earth. At that time, Rome was the foremost city in the world of John. It DID reign over many kings then, such as Herod. And today, Rome is still very important, though no longer the powerhouse it was in John's day.

    In Scriptural symbolism, a woman, especially a harlot, usually represented an idol, idol-worship, or, an apostate form of worship. And, in earlier times, the vatican DID rule kings, such of those of Britain, up til Henry VIII, and of France, Spain, & Portugal. the premier colonizing nations, along with Holland. (After Henry VIII ended RC domination of Britain, Queen "Bloody" Mary was the last British monarch to kowtow to the Vatican.)

    The Vatican once had a sizable army for centuries, being especially strong between 1860 & m1870 when it even had its own artillery and a small Papal Navy that existed from 849 AD til being ended by Pope Leo XIII in 1878. These were elite forces thatcould defeat larger forces when they had to, and even today, the Swiss Guard can fight hard if it had to.

    Jerusalem has never reigned over anything but Israel/judah, & territories they once ruled.
     
  20. Oseas3

    Oseas3 Active Member

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    Good answer, by extension what is hidden under "etc" I would add saying that "woman" is by allegory the Church of the Lord, so by analogy "women" I would say they are churches - traditional denominations, and sects, among others. In addition, can "women" also simbolyze religions as the esoteric/ spiritist/ kabbalistic Judaism, and fake Christians as the idolater Roman Catholic Church, and Ortodox Chuch, Islamism, among others.

    Based in what is written: Rev.14:v.4-5, as follow:

    4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
    5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. - God'sThrone-Ps.97:v.2) -

    The picture is wonderfull, John heard the voice of harpers
    harping with their harps (this picture makes to remember of David, King of Israel): And they sung as it were a NEW SONG before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and NO MAN could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth (earth here is Israel)*.

    Going deeper in Revelation, in my vision when the Dragon of 7 heads, and 10 horns and with a terrible TAIL "saw that he was cast down from heaven(heaven=Eph.1:v.3) unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child, but the earth* helped the woman, and the earth* opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the Red Dragon cast out of his mouth as is written in Rev. 12:v.13 & 16. - There will be a War between the Spirit of God against the Spirit of Devil -


    Flood of the Serpent - Satan


    15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

    14 And to the woman were given TWO WINGS OF A GREAT EAGLE (Isaiah prophesied: 40:v.31 & 60.v.8) that she might FLY into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the (Dragon) serpent - Satan -..

    17 And the Dragon - Satan - was wroth with the woman - the Church of the Lord - , and went to make war with the remnant of Israel, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. - The testimony of JESUS is the Spirit of prophecy - Rev. 19:v.10
     
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