I have no objection to tradition, as long as it's not taken as gospel. Rome is the beast that destroys the whore, Rev 17:16. Or, who do you say the beast the destroys the whore is?
Then you must be a proud Papist!
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
The Significance of 144,000
- Thread starter Protestant
- Start date
- Status
I have no objection to tradition, as long as it's not taken as gospel. Rome is the beast that destroys the whore, Rev 17:16. Or, who do you say the beast the destroys the whore is?
Then you must be a proud Papist!
LECTURE 2 continued
But we must compare The greatness of priesthood began in Melchisedek, was solemnized in Aaron, continued in the children of Aaron, perfected in Christ, represented in Peter, exalted in the universal jurisdiction, and manifested in the pope. So that through this pre-eminence of my priesthood, having all things subject to me, it may seem well verified in me, that was spoken of Christ, "Thou has subdued all things under His feet, sheep and oxen, and all cattle of the field, the birds of heaven, and fish of the sea," etc.: where it is to be noted that by oxen, Jews and heretics, by cattle of the field, pagans be signified..by sheep and all cattle are meant all Christian men, both great and less, whether they be emperors, princes, prelates, or others; by birds of the air you may understand angels and potentates of heaven, who be all subject to me, in that I am greater than the angels, and that in four things, as afore declared, and have power to bind and loose in heaven, and to give heaven to them that fight in my wars; lastly, by the fishes of the sea, are signified the souls departed, in pain or in purgatory.
All the earth is my diocese, and I am the ordinary of all men, having the authority of the King of all kings upon subjects. I am all in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, have but one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do. In all things that I list, my will is to stand for reason; for I am able by the law to dispense above the law, and of wrong to make justice in correcting laws and changing them..Wherefore if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God, what can you make me but God? Again, if prelates of the Church be called and counted of Constantine for gods, I then, being above all prelates, seem by this reason to be above all gods. Wherefore no marvel if it be in my power to change time and times, to alter and abrogate laws, to dispense with all things, yea, with the precepts of Christ; for where Christ biddeth Peter put up his sword, and admonishes His disciples not to use any outward force in revenging themselves, do not I, Pope Nicholas, writing to the bishops of France, exhort them to draw out their material swords? And whereas Christ was present Himself at the marriage in Cana of Galilee, do not I, Pope Martin, in my distinction, inhibit the spiritual clergy to be present at marriage feasts, and also to marry? Moreover where Christ biddeth us lend without hope of gain, do not I, Pope Martin, give dispensation for the same? What should I speak of murder, making it to be no murder or homicide to slay them that be excommunicated? Likewise against the law of nature, item against the apostles, also against the canons of the apostles, I can and do dispense; for where they in their canon command a priest for fornication to be deposed, I, through the authority of Sylvester, do alter the rigor of that constitution, considering the minds and bodies also of men to be weaker than they were then.
After that I have now sufficiently declared my power in earth, in heaven, in purgatory, how great it is, and what is the fullness thereof in binding, loosing, commanding, permitting, electing, confirming, disposing, dispensing, doing, and undoing, etc., I will speak now a little of my riches and of my great possessions, that every man may see by my wealth, and abundance of all things, rents, tithes, tributes, my silks, my purple miters, crowns, gold, silver, pearls and gems, lands and lordships. For to me pertaineth first the imperial city of Rome, the palace of Lateran; the kingdom of Sicily is proper to me; Apulia and Capua be mine. Also the kingdom of England and Ireland, be they not, or ought they not to be, tributaries to me? To these I adjoin also, besides other provinces and countries, both in the occident and orient, from the north to the south, these dominions by name. [Here follows a long list.] What should I speak here of my daily revenues, of my firstfruits, annats, palls, indulgences, bulls, confessionals, indults and rescripts, testaments, dispensations, privileges, elections, prebends, religious houses, and such like, which come to no small mass of money?..Whereby what vantage cometh to my coffers it may partly be conjectured..But what should I speak of Germany, which the whole world is my diocese, as my canonists do say, and all men are bound to believe; except they will imagine (as the Manichees do) two beginnings, which is false and heretical? For Moses saith, In the beginning God made heaven and earth; and not, In the beginnings. Wherefore, as I began, so I conclude, commanding, declaring, and pronouncing, to stand upon necessity of salvation, for every human creature to be subject to me (Foxe: "Acts and Monuments," vol. 4., p. 145).
It is futile to allege that the Papacy does not make these claims and speak these great words against God, but in His name and as His representative. The answer is patent. This prophecy foretells what the power predicted would do, not what it would profess to do. Does the Papacy give God the glory, or does it glorify itself? Facts cannot be set aside by false pretensions. Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. The head of a Christian Church would not overtly array himself against Christ; if he does so, it will be under semblance of serving Him.1
The Papacy has abundantly branded on her own brow this particular of the prophecy -- the boastful, blasphemous claim to Divine authority and absolute dominion. It has assumed Divine attributes, and even the very name of God, and on the strength of that name claimed to be above all human judgment.
5. Lawlessness was the next feature we noted in the little horn. We have given above some specimens of the Papal claim to set aside all laws Divine and human.
The pope has also annulled the only surviving law of paradise, confirmed by the words of Christ. The Lord ordained, "What God hath joined together, let no man put asunder." The pope ordains, "We decide also that, according to the sacred canons, the marriages contracted by priests and deacons be dissolved, and the parties brought to do penance." The Papacy has further annulled the second commandment, given on the mount by the lips of God -- in theory, by the childish and false distinction between heathen idols and Christian images; and in practice, by hiding it from the people, and blotting it out from the catechisms of general instruction. The pope has further annulled the main laws of the gospel. He forbids the cup to the laity, although the Lord Himself has commanded, "Drink ye all of it." He forbids the people of Christ, in general, to use the word of God in their own tongue; though Christ Himself has charged them, "Search the Scriptures." He forbids the laity to reason or converse on the doctrines of the gospel; though St. Peter has commanded them, "Be ye ready to give a reason of the hope that is in you." The pope, finally, sanctions the invocation of saints and angels: though St. Paul has warned us, "Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels"; though St. John has renewed the charge to the disciples of Christ, "Little children, keep yourselves from idols"; and an angel from heaven renews the caution, in his words to the same holy apostle, "See thou do it not, for I am thy fellow servant; worship God" (Birks, "First Two Visions of Daniel," pp. 258, 259).
6. Systematic and long continued persecution of the saints is one of the most marked features of the little horn of the prophecy. It is predicted that he should "wear out the saints of the Most High." His first great characteristic is blasphemous opposition to GOD; his next salient feature is oppressive cruelty towards men: and just as Christ allowed His people to suffer ten persecutions under the pagan emperors of Rome, so he allowed His faithful witnesses to be worn out by the cruelties of Papal Rome. "They shall be given into his hand." The Church has to tread in the footsteps of Christ Himself, who resisted unto blood striving against sin, and was put to death by the power of Rome. She is called to the fellowship of His sufferings; and while they secured the salvation of our race, hers have not been unfruitful, for the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church.
the facts of history with the prediction of prophecy on this point, to see how deeply this mark is engraved on the Papacy as upon no other power that has ever existed in the earth. That the Church of Rome and her Papal head have persecuted largely and long, none can pretend to deny; in fact, so far from denying it, Rome glories in it, and regards it as one of her greatest merits. Other nations have now abandoned as unsound "the bloody tenet of persecution." Rome retains it still, approves it theoretically, and would carry it out as vigorously as ever practically, if she could. Other powers have persecuted to a small extent and occasionally, in the past, but never systematically and by law throughout ages. All but Rome now hold religious liberty to be an inherent right of man. Rome has, on the other hand, persecuted on principle, and steadily from the seventh century right on to the French Revolution and to some extent almost to the present time. She does so still in the secret recesses of her nunneries and monasteries, under the name of penance. Why else does she require shops for the sale of instruments of bodily torture, such as exist this day in London?
But we must compare The greatness of priesthood began in Melchisedek, was solemnized in Aaron, continued in the children of Aaron, perfected in Christ, represented in Peter, exalted in the universal jurisdiction, and manifested in the pope. So that through this pre-eminence of my priesthood, having all things subject to me, it may seem well verified in me, that was spoken of Christ, "Thou has subdued all things under His feet, sheep and oxen, and all cattle of the field, the birds of heaven, and fish of the sea," etc.: where it is to be noted that by oxen, Jews and heretics, by cattle of the field, pagans be signified..by sheep and all cattle are meant all Christian men, both great and less, whether they be emperors, princes, prelates, or others; by birds of the air you may understand angels and potentates of heaven, who be all subject to me, in that I am greater than the angels, and that in four things, as afore declared, and have power to bind and loose in heaven, and to give heaven to them that fight in my wars; lastly, by the fishes of the sea, are signified the souls departed, in pain or in purgatory.
All the earth is my diocese, and I am the ordinary of all men, having the authority of the King of all kings upon subjects. I am all in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, have but one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do. In all things that I list, my will is to stand for reason; for I am able by the law to dispense above the law, and of wrong to make justice in correcting laws and changing them..Wherefore if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God, what can you make me but God? Again, if prelates of the Church be called and counted of Constantine for gods, I then, being above all prelates, seem by this reason to be above all gods. Wherefore no marvel if it be in my power to change time and times, to alter and abrogate laws, to dispense with all things, yea, with the precepts of Christ; for where Christ biddeth Peter put up his sword, and admonishes His disciples not to use any outward force in revenging themselves, do not I, Pope Nicholas, writing to the bishops of France, exhort them to draw out their material swords? And whereas Christ was present Himself at the marriage in Cana of Galilee, do not I, Pope Martin, in my distinction, inhibit the spiritual clergy to be present at marriage feasts, and also to marry? Moreover where Christ biddeth us lend without hope of gain, do not I, Pope Martin, give dispensation for the same? What should I speak of murder, making it to be no murder or homicide to slay them that be excommunicated? Likewise against the law of nature, item against the apostles, also against the canons of the apostles, I can and do dispense; for where they in their canon command a priest for fornication to be deposed, I, through the authority of Sylvester, do alter the rigor of that constitution, considering the minds and bodies also of men to be weaker than they were then.
After that I have now sufficiently declared my power in earth, in heaven, in purgatory, how great it is, and what is the fullness thereof in binding, loosing, commanding, permitting, electing, confirming, disposing, dispensing, doing, and undoing, etc., I will speak now a little of my riches and of my great possessions, that every man may see by my wealth, and abundance of all things, rents, tithes, tributes, my silks, my purple miters, crowns, gold, silver, pearls and gems, lands and lordships. For to me pertaineth first the imperial city of Rome, the palace of Lateran; the kingdom of Sicily is proper to me; Apulia and Capua be mine. Also the kingdom of England and Ireland, be they not, or ought they not to be, tributaries to me? To these I adjoin also, besides other provinces and countries, both in the occident and orient, from the north to the south, these dominions by name. [Here follows a long list.] What should I speak here of my daily revenues, of my firstfruits, annats, palls, indulgences, bulls, confessionals, indults and rescripts, testaments, dispensations, privileges, elections, prebends, religious houses, and such like, which come to no small mass of money?..Whereby what vantage cometh to my coffers it may partly be conjectured..But what should I speak of Germany, which the whole world is my diocese, as my canonists do say, and all men are bound to believe; except they will imagine (as the Manichees do) two beginnings, which is false and heretical? For Moses saith, In the beginning God made heaven and earth; and not, In the beginnings. Wherefore, as I began, so I conclude, commanding, declaring, and pronouncing, to stand upon necessity of salvation, for every human creature to be subject to me (Foxe: "Acts and Monuments," vol. 4., p. 145).
It is futile to allege that the Papacy does not make these claims and speak these great words against God, but in His name and as His representative. The answer is patent. This prophecy foretells what the power predicted would do, not what it would profess to do. Does the Papacy give God the glory, or does it glorify itself? Facts cannot be set aside by false pretensions. Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. The head of a Christian Church would not overtly array himself against Christ; if he does so, it will be under semblance of serving Him.1
The Papacy has abundantly branded on her own brow this particular of the prophecy -- the boastful, blasphemous claim to Divine authority and absolute dominion. It has assumed Divine attributes, and even the very name of God, and on the strength of that name claimed to be above all human judgment.
5. Lawlessness was the next feature we noted in the little horn. We have given above some specimens of the Papal claim to set aside all laws Divine and human.
The pope has also annulled the only surviving law of paradise, confirmed by the words of Christ. The Lord ordained, "What God hath joined together, let no man put asunder." The pope ordains, "We decide also that, according to the sacred canons, the marriages contracted by priests and deacons be dissolved, and the parties brought to do penance." The Papacy has further annulled the second commandment, given on the mount by the lips of God -- in theory, by the childish and false distinction between heathen idols and Christian images; and in practice, by hiding it from the people, and blotting it out from the catechisms of general instruction. The pope has further annulled the main laws of the gospel. He forbids the cup to the laity, although the Lord Himself has commanded, "Drink ye all of it." He forbids the people of Christ, in general, to use the word of God in their own tongue; though Christ Himself has charged them, "Search the Scriptures." He forbids the laity to reason or converse on the doctrines of the gospel; though St. Peter has commanded them, "Be ye ready to give a reason of the hope that is in you." The pope, finally, sanctions the invocation of saints and angels: though St. Paul has warned us, "Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels"; though St. John has renewed the charge to the disciples of Christ, "Little children, keep yourselves from idols"; and an angel from heaven renews the caution, in his words to the same holy apostle, "See thou do it not, for I am thy fellow servant; worship God" (Birks, "First Two Visions of Daniel," pp. 258, 259).
6. Systematic and long continued persecution of the saints is one of the most marked features of the little horn of the prophecy. It is predicted that he should "wear out the saints of the Most High." His first great characteristic is blasphemous opposition to GOD; his next salient feature is oppressive cruelty towards men: and just as Christ allowed His people to suffer ten persecutions under the pagan emperors of Rome, so he allowed His faithful witnesses to be worn out by the cruelties of Papal Rome. "They shall be given into his hand." The Church has to tread in the footsteps of Christ Himself, who resisted unto blood striving against sin, and was put to death by the power of Rome. She is called to the fellowship of His sufferings; and while they secured the salvation of our race, hers have not been unfruitful, for the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church.
the facts of history with the prediction of prophecy on this point, to see how deeply this mark is engraved on the Papacy as upon no other power that has ever existed in the earth. That the Church of Rome and her Papal head have persecuted largely and long, none can pretend to deny; in fact, so far from denying it, Rome glories in it, and regards it as one of her greatest merits. Other nations have now abandoned as unsound "the bloody tenet of persecution." Rome retains it still, approves it theoretically, and would carry it out as vigorously as ever practically, if she could. Other powers have persecuted to a small extent and occasionally, in the past, but never systematically and by law throughout ages. All but Rome now hold religious liberty to be an inherent right of man. Rome has, on the other hand, persecuted on principle, and steadily from the seventh century right on to the French Revolution and to some extent almost to the present time. She does so still in the secret recesses of her nunneries and monasteries, under the name of penance. Why else does she require shops for the sale of instruments of bodily torture, such as exist this day in London?
LECTURE 2 Continued
Rome’s contention is, not that she does not persecute, but only that she does not persecute saints. She punishes heretics -- a very different thing. The first would be wicked, the last she esteems laudable. In the Rhemish New Testament there is a note on the words "drunken with the blood of saints," which runs as follows: "Protestants foolishly expound this of Rome, because heretics are there put to death. But their blood is not called the blood of saints, any more than the blood of thieves or man-killers, or other malefactors; and for the shedding of it no commonwealth shall give account." This is clear. Rome approves the murder of "heretics," and fully admits that she practices her principles.
The question therefore becomes this, Are those whom Rome calls "heretics" the same as those whom Daniel calls "saints"? If so, the identification of the Papacy is as complete in this respect as in all the previous points. In order to arrive at an answer to this question, let us take Rome’s own definition of a heretic. The following statements are from authorized documents, laws, and decrees of the Papacy, dating from the time of Pope Pelagius in the sixth century, twelve hundred years ago. "Schism is an evil. Whoever is separated from the apostolic see is doubtless in schism. Do then what we often exhort. Take pains that they who presume to commit this sin be brought into custody..Do not hesitate to compress men of this kind, and if he despise this, let him be crushed by the public powers." This, it will be observed, makes a want of perfect submission to the pope, even though no false doctrine or evil practice be alleged, a ground for persecution. Pope Damasus, whose election to the pontificate was secured by a hundred and thirty-seven murders, authorizes persecution of those who speak against any of the holy canons, and adds, "It is permitted neither to think nor to speak differently from the Roman Church." This is one of the canons which it is blasphemy to violate; and he who ventures to differ, even in thought, on any point whatever from the Roman Church is therefore a heretic. Hundreds of decisions on detailed examples of heresy are all summed up in this one. The Roman decrees everywhere supply similar definitions. Whatever is short of absolute, unconditional surrender of all freedom of act or word, or even of thought and conscience, is heresy. Every evangelical Christian in the world is therefore, according to Romanist canons, a heretic, and as such liable to "punishment." And moreover Rome frankly admits that it is only where she cannot in the nature of things carry out her ecclesiastical discipline that she is justified in refraining from persecution. The Papacy teaches all her adherents that it is a sacred duty to exterminate heresy. From age to age it has sought to crush out all opposition to its own dogmas and corruptions, and Papal edicts for persecution are innumerable. The fourth Lateran Council issued a canon on the subject, which subsequently became an awful instrument of cruelty.
For long ages it was held and taught universally that whoever fell fighting against heretics had merited heaven. Urban II. issued a decree, acted on, alas! to this day in Ireland, that the murder of heretics was excusable. "We do not count them murderers who, burning with the zeal of their Catholic mother against the excommunicate, may happen to have slain some of them." If not absolutely murdered, heretics might be ill treated ad libitum, according to an ordinance of Gregory IX., who writes to the Archbishop of Milan: "Let those understand themselves to be absolved the debt of fidelity, homage, and all manner of service, who were bound by any compact, however firmly ratified, to those who have fallen into heresy." Systematic persecution and extermination of heretics among their subjects was constantly enjoined on kings and emperors; such were required solemnly to swear on their coronation that they would, according to their power, faithfully render their service to the pope. If they neglected to do it, the sovereign pontiff would declare the vassals free and give their realms to rigid Papists who would more effectually persecute. If monarchs became heretics themselves, they were to be deposed and anathematized. Thus Pius V. "issued a bull for the damnation and excommunication of Queen Elizabeth and her adherents," cutting her off from "the unity of the body of Christ," depriving her of her crown and kingdom, and pronouncing a curse on her and on all who continued to obey her.
The laws of the Papacy on this subject increase in malignity from the beginning down to modern times. Bellarmine argues for the necessity of burning heretics, a practice which Luther had asserted to be contrary to the Spirit of God. He says: "Experience teaches that there is no other remedy; for the Church has proceeded by slow steps, and tried all remedies. First, she only excommunicated. Then she added a fine of money, and afterwards exile. Lastly, she was compelled to come to the punishment of death. For heretics despise excommunication, and say that those lightnings are cold. If you threaten a fine of money, they neither fear God nor regard men, knowing that fools will not be wanting to believe in them, and by whom they may be sustained. If you shut them in prison, or send them into exile, they corrupt those near to them with their words, and those at a distance with their books. Therefore the only remedy is, to send them betimes into their own place."
Under these bloody maxims those persecutions were carried on, from the eleventh and twelfth centuries almost to the present day, which stand out on the page of history. After a signal of open martyrdom had been given in the canons of Orleans, there followed the extirpation of the Albigenses under the form of a crusade, the establishment of the Inquisition, the cruel attempts to extinguish the Waldenses, the martyrdom of the Lollards, the cruel wars to exterminate the Bohemians, the burning of Huss and Jerome, and multitudes of other confessors, before the Reformation; and afterwards the ferocious cruelties practiced in the Netherlands, the martyrdom of Queen Mary’s reign, the extinction, by fire and sword, of the Reformation in Spain and Italy, by fraud and open persecution in Poland, the massacre of Bartholemew, the persecutions of the Huguenots by the League, the extirpation of the Vaudois, and all the cruelties and perjuries connected with the revocation of the Edict of Nantes. These are the more open and conspicuous facts which explain the prophecy, besides the slow and secret murders of the holy tribunal of the Inquisition" (Birks: "First Two Visions of Daniel," pp. 248,249).
Continued
Rome’s contention is, not that she does not persecute, but only that she does not persecute saints. She punishes heretics -- a very different thing. The first would be wicked, the last she esteems laudable. In the Rhemish New Testament there is a note on the words "drunken with the blood of saints," which runs as follows: "Protestants foolishly expound this of Rome, because heretics are there put to death. But their blood is not called the blood of saints, any more than the blood of thieves or man-killers, or other malefactors; and for the shedding of it no commonwealth shall give account." This is clear. Rome approves the murder of "heretics," and fully admits that she practices her principles.
The question therefore becomes this, Are those whom Rome calls "heretics" the same as those whom Daniel calls "saints"? If so, the identification of the Papacy is as complete in this respect as in all the previous points. In order to arrive at an answer to this question, let us take Rome’s own definition of a heretic. The following statements are from authorized documents, laws, and decrees of the Papacy, dating from the time of Pope Pelagius in the sixth century, twelve hundred years ago. "Schism is an evil. Whoever is separated from the apostolic see is doubtless in schism. Do then what we often exhort. Take pains that they who presume to commit this sin be brought into custody..Do not hesitate to compress men of this kind, and if he despise this, let him be crushed by the public powers." This, it will be observed, makes a want of perfect submission to the pope, even though no false doctrine or evil practice be alleged, a ground for persecution. Pope Damasus, whose election to the pontificate was secured by a hundred and thirty-seven murders, authorizes persecution of those who speak against any of the holy canons, and adds, "It is permitted neither to think nor to speak differently from the Roman Church." This is one of the canons which it is blasphemy to violate; and he who ventures to differ, even in thought, on any point whatever from the Roman Church is therefore a heretic. Hundreds of decisions on detailed examples of heresy are all summed up in this one. The Roman decrees everywhere supply similar definitions. Whatever is short of absolute, unconditional surrender of all freedom of act or word, or even of thought and conscience, is heresy. Every evangelical Christian in the world is therefore, according to Romanist canons, a heretic, and as such liable to "punishment." And moreover Rome frankly admits that it is only where she cannot in the nature of things carry out her ecclesiastical discipline that she is justified in refraining from persecution. The Papacy teaches all her adherents that it is a sacred duty to exterminate heresy. From age to age it has sought to crush out all opposition to its own dogmas and corruptions, and Papal edicts for persecution are innumerable. The fourth Lateran Council issued a canon on the subject, which subsequently became an awful instrument of cruelty.
For long ages it was held and taught universally that whoever fell fighting against heretics had merited heaven. Urban II. issued a decree, acted on, alas! to this day in Ireland, that the murder of heretics was excusable. "We do not count them murderers who, burning with the zeal of their Catholic mother against the excommunicate, may happen to have slain some of them." If not absolutely murdered, heretics might be ill treated ad libitum, according to an ordinance of Gregory IX., who writes to the Archbishop of Milan: "Let those understand themselves to be absolved the debt of fidelity, homage, and all manner of service, who were bound by any compact, however firmly ratified, to those who have fallen into heresy." Systematic persecution and extermination of heretics among their subjects was constantly enjoined on kings and emperors; such were required solemnly to swear on their coronation that they would, according to their power, faithfully render their service to the pope. If they neglected to do it, the sovereign pontiff would declare the vassals free and give their realms to rigid Papists who would more effectually persecute. If monarchs became heretics themselves, they were to be deposed and anathematized. Thus Pius V. "issued a bull for the damnation and excommunication of Queen Elizabeth and her adherents," cutting her off from "the unity of the body of Christ," depriving her of her crown and kingdom, and pronouncing a curse on her and on all who continued to obey her.
The laws of the Papacy on this subject increase in malignity from the beginning down to modern times. Bellarmine argues for the necessity of burning heretics, a practice which Luther had asserted to be contrary to the Spirit of God. He says: "Experience teaches that there is no other remedy; for the Church has proceeded by slow steps, and tried all remedies. First, she only excommunicated. Then she added a fine of money, and afterwards exile. Lastly, she was compelled to come to the punishment of death. For heretics despise excommunication, and say that those lightnings are cold. If you threaten a fine of money, they neither fear God nor regard men, knowing that fools will not be wanting to believe in them, and by whom they may be sustained. If you shut them in prison, or send them into exile, they corrupt those near to them with their words, and those at a distance with their books. Therefore the only remedy is, to send them betimes into their own place."
Under these bloody maxims those persecutions were carried on, from the eleventh and twelfth centuries almost to the present day, which stand out on the page of history. After a signal of open martyrdom had been given in the canons of Orleans, there followed the extirpation of the Albigenses under the form of a crusade, the establishment of the Inquisition, the cruel attempts to extinguish the Waldenses, the martyrdom of the Lollards, the cruel wars to exterminate the Bohemians, the burning of Huss and Jerome, and multitudes of other confessors, before the Reformation; and afterwards the ferocious cruelties practiced in the Netherlands, the martyrdom of Queen Mary’s reign, the extinction, by fire and sword, of the Reformation in Spain and Italy, by fraud and open persecution in Poland, the massacre of Bartholemew, the persecutions of the Huguenots by the League, the extirpation of the Vaudois, and all the cruelties and perjuries connected with the revocation of the Edict of Nantes. These are the more open and conspicuous facts which explain the prophecy, besides the slow and secret murders of the holy tribunal of the Inquisition" (Birks: "First Two Visions of Daniel," pp. 248,249).
Continued
LECTURE 2
A Romanist writer, who deplored the persecuting policy of his Church -- Professor Rossetti -- writes: It makes the heart of a true Christian bleed to think of this fatal error of the Latin Church, which by persecuting others laid the foundation of her own irreparable ruin. That the opinions held by these so-called heretics were most injurious to the Church of Rome cannot be denied, but the means taken to destroy them were, of all others, the most likely to strengthen them, and render them more deeply rooted. Daniel and St. John foretold that Satan’s delegate would use horrid cruelties, and inundate Babylon with the blood of Christ’s martyrs; and the pope, to prove that he was not that delegate, did use horrid cruelties, and cause Rome to overflow with the purest of Christian blood!
So Sismondi, the historian writes: To maintain unity of belief the Church had recourse to the expedient of burning all those who separated themselves from her; but although for two hundred years the fires were never quenched, still every day saw Romanists abjuring the faith of their fathers and embracing the religion which often guided them to the stake. In vain Gregory IX., in A.D. 1231, put to death every heretic whom he found concealed in Rome. His own letters show that the heretics only increased in numbers.
It must never be forgotten that all Rome’s ordinances against heresy, all its statutes of persecution, remain in its canon law unabrogated, unchanged, and as the Papacy is infallible in its own esteem -- unchangeable, "irreformable." Its present disuse of persecution practically is the result of the heavy judgments which have, since the Reformation, and especially since the French Revolution, overtaken it. It has now no army and no Inquisition of its own, nor is any single kingdom in Europe willing any longer to act as its executioner. It lacks the power -- it utterly lacks the power -- to persecute directly or indirectly. It can only stir up sedition and revolt in Protestant countries, and thus endeavor to injure and weaken Protestant powers, as it is doing today in Ireland and in the United States. It is too weak politically to defy modern society by reintroducing mediaeval tortures, massacres, religious crusades, and the auto da fe. But it is as willing as ever, and awaits the opportunity only. As a drunkard may retain his vicious appetite when he has no longer the means of gratifying it, so Rome long drunken with the blood of saints -- is restrained from further maddening and debasing draughts of her dreadful beverage by nothing but inability to procure them. The Papacy, by justifying as righteous all the horrible persecutions of the past, attests her readiness to renew them whenever the opportunity may serve.
As I shall have to recur to this subject when treating of St. John’s foreview of Romanism, I will add nothing further on this point. I have said enough to show, that this sixth mark of the little horn attaches most distinctly to the Papacy, and indicates it alone among all the powers that have ever held sway on the Roman earth. It has martyred by millions the saints of God, the best and holiest of men. Its persecuting edicts range over the entire period of its existence; the present pope has endorsed them by his approval of the syllabus of Pius IX., and he threw over them the mantle of infallibility.
7. Its duration. A certain definite period is assigned to the rule of the little horn. That period is expressed in symbolic language, harmonious with the symbolic or hieroglyphic character of the whole prophecy. It is "time, times and a half," or "1,260 days." This is a miniature symbol of the empire, and the little horn of the Papacy of Rome. Scripture elsewhere gives us the scale on which it is to be enlarged, "a year for a day." It means therefore 1,260 years. The political supremacy and the persecuting power of the see of Rome were to last for this period and no longer. We have shown you that the popedom dates from the beginning of the seventh century. Twelve and a half centuries added brings us to the end of the nineteenth century -- in other words, to the days we live in, and in which Rome has ceased to be governed by its popes and has become the capital of the kings of Italy. I have no time to expound this chronological point fully to you this evening. If you wish to study it, you will find it carefully and exactly treated in my recent work, "Light for the Last Days." But it leads me to the final point in this identification.
8. The doom of the predicted power. What is the end of this symbolic horn? "They shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it to the end." "The beast was slain, and his body destroyed and given to the burning flame." This last clause of prophecy is of course not yet fully accomplished, as it is the coming of the Son of man in the clouds of heaven that brings about the final consummation (v. 13). Speculations about the future we leave to futurists, and therefore it might at first sight seem as if we ought to say nothing on this point of the prophecy. But it is not so.
This doom consists clearly of two parts: first, the consuming and destroying to the end; and then the end itself, symbolized by the slaughter of the beast, the committal of his body to the burning flame. Now the first part of this doom is fulfilling, and has been fulfilling ever since the Reformation, and especially ever since the French revolution; though the second part is still future. We ask, Has there not been going on for the last few centuries a process by which the once mighty power of the Papacy has been sensibly consumed -- a weakening process, analogous to consumption in the human frame -- a wasting decay tending to extinction?
It must be borne in mind that this prophecy of Daniel takes up the political aspect of the great antichrist, not his religious character. It views him as a monarch of the Roman world, not as a bishop of the Christian Church. We come to that aspect of his career presently, when we take up Paul’s foreview. Here it is one horn among ten, one kingdom among ten Latin kingdoms, though in some senses ruling over them all. The question is, Has there not been such a decay and diminution of Papal sovereignty, such a wasting and weakening of Papal power, such a loss of revenue, influence, and territory, as may be fairly said to fulfill this prediction?
Continued
A Romanist writer, who deplored the persecuting policy of his Church -- Professor Rossetti -- writes: It makes the heart of a true Christian bleed to think of this fatal error of the Latin Church, which by persecuting others laid the foundation of her own irreparable ruin. That the opinions held by these so-called heretics were most injurious to the Church of Rome cannot be denied, but the means taken to destroy them were, of all others, the most likely to strengthen them, and render them more deeply rooted. Daniel and St. John foretold that Satan’s delegate would use horrid cruelties, and inundate Babylon with the blood of Christ’s martyrs; and the pope, to prove that he was not that delegate, did use horrid cruelties, and cause Rome to overflow with the purest of Christian blood!
So Sismondi, the historian writes: To maintain unity of belief the Church had recourse to the expedient of burning all those who separated themselves from her; but although for two hundred years the fires were never quenched, still every day saw Romanists abjuring the faith of their fathers and embracing the religion which often guided them to the stake. In vain Gregory IX., in A.D. 1231, put to death every heretic whom he found concealed in Rome. His own letters show that the heretics only increased in numbers.
It must never be forgotten that all Rome’s ordinances against heresy, all its statutes of persecution, remain in its canon law unabrogated, unchanged, and as the Papacy is infallible in its own esteem -- unchangeable, "irreformable." Its present disuse of persecution practically is the result of the heavy judgments which have, since the Reformation, and especially since the French Revolution, overtaken it. It has now no army and no Inquisition of its own, nor is any single kingdom in Europe willing any longer to act as its executioner. It lacks the power -- it utterly lacks the power -- to persecute directly or indirectly. It can only stir up sedition and revolt in Protestant countries, and thus endeavor to injure and weaken Protestant powers, as it is doing today in Ireland and in the United States. It is too weak politically to defy modern society by reintroducing mediaeval tortures, massacres, religious crusades, and the auto da fe. But it is as willing as ever, and awaits the opportunity only. As a drunkard may retain his vicious appetite when he has no longer the means of gratifying it, so Rome long drunken with the blood of saints -- is restrained from further maddening and debasing draughts of her dreadful beverage by nothing but inability to procure them. The Papacy, by justifying as righteous all the horrible persecutions of the past, attests her readiness to renew them whenever the opportunity may serve.
As I shall have to recur to this subject when treating of St. John’s foreview of Romanism, I will add nothing further on this point. I have said enough to show, that this sixth mark of the little horn attaches most distinctly to the Papacy, and indicates it alone among all the powers that have ever held sway on the Roman earth. It has martyred by millions the saints of God, the best and holiest of men. Its persecuting edicts range over the entire period of its existence; the present pope has endorsed them by his approval of the syllabus of Pius IX., and he threw over them the mantle of infallibility.
7. Its duration. A certain definite period is assigned to the rule of the little horn. That period is expressed in symbolic language, harmonious with the symbolic or hieroglyphic character of the whole prophecy. It is "time, times and a half," or "1,260 days." This is a miniature symbol of the empire, and the little horn of the Papacy of Rome. Scripture elsewhere gives us the scale on which it is to be enlarged, "a year for a day." It means therefore 1,260 years. The political supremacy and the persecuting power of the see of Rome were to last for this period and no longer. We have shown you that the popedom dates from the beginning of the seventh century. Twelve and a half centuries added brings us to the end of the nineteenth century -- in other words, to the days we live in, and in which Rome has ceased to be governed by its popes and has become the capital of the kings of Italy. I have no time to expound this chronological point fully to you this evening. If you wish to study it, you will find it carefully and exactly treated in my recent work, "Light for the Last Days." But it leads me to the final point in this identification.
8. The doom of the predicted power. What is the end of this symbolic horn? "They shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it to the end." "The beast was slain, and his body destroyed and given to the burning flame." This last clause of prophecy is of course not yet fully accomplished, as it is the coming of the Son of man in the clouds of heaven that brings about the final consummation (v. 13). Speculations about the future we leave to futurists, and therefore it might at first sight seem as if we ought to say nothing on this point of the prophecy. But it is not so.
This doom consists clearly of two parts: first, the consuming and destroying to the end; and then the end itself, symbolized by the slaughter of the beast, the committal of his body to the burning flame. Now the first part of this doom is fulfilling, and has been fulfilling ever since the Reformation, and especially ever since the French revolution; though the second part is still future. We ask, Has there not been going on for the last few centuries a process by which the once mighty power of the Papacy has been sensibly consumed -- a weakening process, analogous to consumption in the human frame -- a wasting decay tending to extinction?
It must be borne in mind that this prophecy of Daniel takes up the political aspect of the great antichrist, not his religious character. It views him as a monarch of the Roman world, not as a bishop of the Christian Church. We come to that aspect of his career presently, when we take up Paul’s foreview. Here it is one horn among ten, one kingdom among ten Latin kingdoms, though in some senses ruling over them all. The question is, Has there not been such a decay and diminution of Papal sovereignty, such a wasting and weakening of Papal power, such a loss of revenue, influence, and territory, as may be fairly said to fulfill this prediction?
Continued
Last edited:
Rome is the main city of Italy / Rome is the capital of Italy.
Spiritually speaking, Rome is the cradle of universal false Christianism, born within the Roman Empire, created / generated, developed by the Devil's spirit, under the denomination of the Catholic Church, primarily in Europe, and Asia, and Africa. Later in Australia, North America, Central America, and South America, seven regions of the planet and hundreds of nations, where the Great Prostitute-the RCC- is seated(Revelation 17: v.15), which today has more than 1 billion followers.
The name "Catholic Church" was used to distinguish it from other groups that also called themselves "the church." The Man/Beast, the Beast of sea, rose from within the Catholic Church the cradle of the false Christianimo and about 265 Beasts / Popes were elected in this nearly 2,000 years, called Papacy, now this idolatrous and satanic church called Roman Catholic Church, which today has more of 1 billion followers, all of these souls are destined to the hell's fire with their religion and idolatries.
They will never enter the kingdom of God, for they all belong to Satan the founder of the false Christianism of the Catholic Church.
Rome is the capital city of Italy?????? Wow!!! That changes everything! Oh wait.... Maybe you might try responding to my points of why that doesn't make the RCC the whore.
The last verse of Rev. 17 plainly IDs the harlot as ROME, not the papacy, which is just a part of it. The Vatican & city of Rome are intertwined, simple as THAT. And in Scriptural symbolism, a harlot is idol worship, etc.
Last edited:
Roma is the proper name of that city. "Rome" is an English alliteration of Roma.
And Scriptural symbolism calls a false church, religion, or idol worship a harlot. Remember, Israel & Judah are described as "playing the harlot" by their idol worship.
David Kent, the papacy is but the head of the harlot, which is the RCC.
The antichrist will use the RCC to help him gain power, then he will turn on it, just as Hitler did, only it'll be worldwide, not just in Germany.
When Goering, as prez of the Reichstag, brought up the "Enabling Act", to give Hitler almost-unlimited authority, they relied upon the RC delegates to vote for its passage. They did, & shortly thereafter, Hitler, not needing the RCC any more, turned upon it, confiscating their property, killing or imprisoning its clerics, abolishing their organizations, etc.
I believe that was a "warning run" for the coming antichrist, who will somehow use the RCC to help him gain power, then, turn on it.
The antichrist will use the RCC to help him gain power, then he will turn on it, just as Hitler did, only it'll be worldwide, not just in Germany.
When Goering, as prez of the Reichstag, brought up the "Enabling Act", to give Hitler almost-unlimited authority, they relied upon the RC delegates to vote for its passage. They did, & shortly thereafter, Hitler, not needing the RCC any more, turned upon it, confiscating their property, killing or imprisoning its clerics, abolishing their organizations, etc.
I believe that was a "warning run" for the coming antichrist, who will somehow use the RCC to help him gain power, then, turn on it.
Protestant
Well-Known Member
Revelation 11: The Two Witnesses - Part 10
Testimony of Protestant Bishop Nicholas Ridley Burned for Heresy, October 16, 1555
· IDENTIFIED THE POPE AS ANTICHRIST
· IDENTIFIED THE HOLY SEE AS SEAT OF SATAN
· IDENTIFIED CHURCH OF ROME AS THE WHORE BABYLON
· UNDERSTOOD DANIEL 7 LITTLE HORN TO BE THE PAPAL BEAST
· CHRIST NOT IN EUCHARIST; IDOLATRY COMMITTED BY THE DELUDED
· IDENTIFIES THE MASS AS THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION
· BURNED FOR DENYING TRANSUBSTANTIATION
The following quotes may be found in The Works of Nicholas Ridley, D.D. (Parker Society 1848), pp. 401-18.
"I say unto you, as St. Paul saith unto the Galatians, I wonder [my lords] what hath bewitched you, that ye so suddenly are fallen from Christ to Antichrist, from Christ's Gospel unto men's traditions, from the Lord that bought you unto the Bishop now of Rome…….For he that is partner with [Mystery Babylon and Antichrist] in their whoredom and abominations, must also be partner with them in their plagues, and on the latter day shall be thrown with them into the lake burning with brimstone and unquenchable fire."
“For the godly articles of unity of religion what do these thieves place in the stead of them, but the pope's laws and decrees, lying legends, and feigned fables and miracles, to delude and abuse the simplicity of the rude people? Thus this robbery and theft is not only committed, nay sacrilege and wicked spoil of heavenly things, but also in the stead of the same is brought in and placed the abominable desolation of the tyrant Antiochus. Unto this robbery, this theft and sacrilege, for that I cannot consent, nor, God willing, never shall so long as the breath is in my body because it is blasphemy against God, high treason unto Christ our Heavenly King, Lord, Master, and our only Saviour and Redeemer, it is plain contrary to God's word and to Christ's Gospel, it is the subversion of all true godliness, and against the everlasting salvation of my own soul; therefore, all ye my true lovers in GOD, my kinsfolk and countrymen, for this cause, I say, know ye that I am put to death; which, by God's grace, I shall willingly take, with hearty thanks to GOD therefore, in certain hope, without any doubting, to receive at God's hand again, of his free mercy and grace, everlasting life."
In 1843 a memorial was completed to commemorate not only the martyrdom of Ridley, but also that of Hugh Latimer and Thomas Cranmer.
Martyrs Memorial
The inscription reads:
“To the Glory of God, and in grateful commemoration of His servants, Thomas Cranmer, Nicholas Ridley, Hugh Latimer, Prelates of the Church of England, who near this spot yielded their bodies to be burned, bearing witness to the sacred truths which they had affirmed and maintained against the errors of the Church of Rome, and rejoicing that to them it was given not only to believe in Christ, but also to suffer for His sake; this monument was erected by public subscription in the year of our Lord God, MDCCCXLI.”
The place of execution was Broad Street, a fact which will be elucidated when exegeting Rev. 11:7-8.
Execution spot on Broad Street where the three Oxford martyrs were burned.
Next: The testimony of Mrs. Prest, an illiterate English weaver.
Testimony of Protestant Bishop Nicholas Ridley Burned for Heresy, October 16, 1555
· IDENTIFIED THE POPE AS ANTICHRIST
· IDENTIFIED THE HOLY SEE AS SEAT OF SATAN
· IDENTIFIED CHURCH OF ROME AS THE WHORE BABYLON
· UNDERSTOOD DANIEL 7 LITTLE HORN TO BE THE PAPAL BEAST
· CHRIST NOT IN EUCHARIST; IDOLATRY COMMITTED BY THE DELUDED
· IDENTIFIES THE MASS AS THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION
· BURNED FOR DENYING TRANSUBSTANTIATION
The following quotes may be found in The Works of Nicholas Ridley, D.D. (Parker Society 1848), pp. 401-18.
"I say unto you, as St. Paul saith unto the Galatians, I wonder [my lords] what hath bewitched you, that ye so suddenly are fallen from Christ to Antichrist, from Christ's Gospel unto men's traditions, from the Lord that bought you unto the Bishop now of Rome…….For he that is partner with [Mystery Babylon and Antichrist] in their whoredom and abominations, must also be partner with them in their plagues, and on the latter day shall be thrown with them into the lake burning with brimstone and unquenchable fire."
“For the godly articles of unity of religion what do these thieves place in the stead of them, but the pope's laws and decrees, lying legends, and feigned fables and miracles, to delude and abuse the simplicity of the rude people? Thus this robbery and theft is not only committed, nay sacrilege and wicked spoil of heavenly things, but also in the stead of the same is brought in and placed the abominable desolation of the tyrant Antiochus. Unto this robbery, this theft and sacrilege, for that I cannot consent, nor, God willing, never shall so long as the breath is in my body because it is blasphemy against God, high treason unto Christ our Heavenly King, Lord, Master, and our only Saviour and Redeemer, it is plain contrary to God's word and to Christ's Gospel, it is the subversion of all true godliness, and against the everlasting salvation of my own soul; therefore, all ye my true lovers in GOD, my kinsfolk and countrymen, for this cause, I say, know ye that I am put to death; which, by God's grace, I shall willingly take, with hearty thanks to GOD therefore, in certain hope, without any doubting, to receive at God's hand again, of his free mercy and grace, everlasting life."
In 1843 a memorial was completed to commemorate not only the martyrdom of Ridley, but also that of Hugh Latimer and Thomas Cranmer.
Martyrs Memorial
The inscription reads:
“To the Glory of God, and in grateful commemoration of His servants, Thomas Cranmer, Nicholas Ridley, Hugh Latimer, Prelates of the Church of England, who near this spot yielded their bodies to be burned, bearing witness to the sacred truths which they had affirmed and maintained against the errors of the Church of Rome, and rejoicing that to them it was given not only to believe in Christ, but also to suffer for His sake; this monument was erected by public subscription in the year of our Lord God, MDCCCXLI.”
The place of execution was Broad Street, a fact which will be elucidated when exegeting Rev. 11:7-8.
Execution spot on Broad Street where the three Oxford martyrs were burned.
Next: The testimony of Mrs. Prest, an illiterate English weaver.
The book of Revelation was written to the Church. It concerns the Church not the Jews. It is a history of the Church and its persecution by Rome, pagan and papal. The pope is the current Roman Emperor, and has the title Pont Max, handed down from Julius Caesar who was the first emperor who was a priest of the pagan religion. The pope is high priest of the pseudo christian pagan religion. Antichrist is in place of Christ, which is exactly what the popes claim to be. c'est tout.
The territory of the Vatican was donated by Pepino (King of the Franks) in 756 AD to the Catholic Church, until February 10, 1929 the Catholic Church of Rome had dominion over Italy, there was no Vatican State.
The Vatican State was officially constituted through the Lateran Treaty, signed on February 11, 1929. Negotiations between the Italian government and the Catholic Church extended for more than two years, and an agreement was reached on February 11, 1929. 1929, when dictator Benito Mussolini and Pietro Gasparri, secretary of the Holy See, met at the Lateran Palace and the signing and formalization of the Lateran Treaty took place.
The Lateran Treaty document can be divided into three distinct parts. In the first part of the agreement, the creation of the Vatican City State, an independent territory under the Pope's government, was made official. In the second part, the terms of relations between Italy and the Vatican were agreed, in which the Italian government assured that it would not intervene in the internal affairs of the Vatican.
The final point of the agreement was about compensation that would be paid to the Vatican for all the lands they gave up and which were recognized as Italian government possessions, at updated values, the compensation totaled about one billion dollars.
The Vatican State was officially constituted through the Lateran Treaty, signed on February 11, 1929. Negotiations between the Italian government and the Catholic Church extended for more than two years, and an agreement was reached on February 11, 1929. 1929, when dictator Benito Mussolini and Pietro Gasparri, secretary of the Holy See, met at the Lateran Palace and the signing and formalization of the Lateran Treaty took place.
The Lateran Treaty document can be divided into three distinct parts. In the first part of the agreement, the creation of the Vatican City State, an independent territory under the Pope's government, was made official. In the second part, the terms of relations between Italy and the Vatican were agreed, in which the Italian government assured that it would not intervene in the internal affairs of the Vatican.
The final point of the agreement was about compensation that would be paid to the Vatican for all the lands they gave up and which were recognized as Italian government possessions, at updated values, the compensation totaled about one billion dollars.
The last verse? Psalm 2:6-9 identifies Jerusalem as the city that reins over the kinds of the earth. "‘I myself have installed my king on Zion, my holy mountain.’ I will proclaim the decree of the LORD, who said to me, ‘You are my son; today I am your father. Only ask it of me, and I will make your inheritance the nations, your possession the ends of the earth. With an iron rod you shall shepherd them, like a clay pot you will shatter them.’"
Not quite correct. The papacy overthrew 3 of the 10 Gothic states that succeded the Roman Empire. He ruled these, known as The Papal States, as absolute ruler till 1870, when they were taken away by Victor Emanuel. From then the popes had no teritory except their palace, until Mussolini gave him the Vatican State, in return for papal help in making him dictator.
Last edited:
Sorry, I forgot to post the link of the source: Vatican City - Wikipedia
You are free to make corrections on Wikipedia.
No, the popes are not the antichrist mentioned by Daniel, Paul, & revelation. While, even in John's day, he said many antichrists have come, Scripture also says that anyone not FOR Christ is an antichrist. But "a prince of the people who shall destroy Jerusalem.(the Romans) that man of sin, & the beast from the sea" hasn't come yet. He shall be one man, not a line of men. While the papacy is among the antichrists, it's not the worst of all, that one man, who is to come.
No, Psalm 2:6-9 won't be fulfilled til Jesus returns to rule the world from Jerusalem. In John's time, that city was ROME, ITALY.
Well you disagree with all Christians from about AD1200 when the Waldesians wrote their Treatise on Antichrist. That was when the popes reached their persecuting pinacle.
The Jesuits tried to counter that teaching by promoting first preterism and then futurism. Their teaching did not spread to protestants till Edward Irving adopted it and preached on dispensationalism on 25th December 1825.. The Waldensians, John Huss and the Hussites, the Lollards, the Reformers and Baptists, the Huguenots. All these were united in that belief, but most of today's Christians seem to have fallen for the Jesuit lie.
Last edited:
Brother David... The church I grew up in, its linage and belief runs through The Waldensians could you direct me to their Treatise on Antichrist... I don't believe I've ever read it... Thanks... Brother Glen
- Status