The Significance of 144,000

The 144,000 is all men. <that's symbolic>
The 144,000 are all virgins. <that's symbolic>
The 144,000 are 12,000 from 12 tribes. <that's literal>
Arbitrary nonsense that only a Pentecostal could love.

 

Jerusalem below was destroyed, The Book of Revelation could be said the be a Tale Of Two Cities, The New Jerusalem, and Mystery Babylon the Great. The true Church and the false church. It could be called A Tale Of Two Women. The Bride, the true Church and the Harlot, the false church. One is Holy, the other is "drunk with the blood of the saints." That can only. describe the Church of Rome and its inquisition and crusades against the true church.
Mystery Babylon is plainly shown to be Rome. One of her "kings" was reigning at the time. She sits on seven hills, Rome boasts that she is the city of the seven hills.

 

It has already been pointed out that the Vatican is not Rome. The Vatican doesn't sit in seven hills. And, no matter how much you would like to ignore facts, Jerusalem is also known as a city that sits on seven hill. And, the Bible names those hills. The Bible doesn't show any knowledge of hills of Rome or the Vatican.

Revelation 17:18 tells us the woman "represents the great city that has sovereignty over the kings of the earth.” The Bible doesn't tell us that Rome is a great city, let alone the Vatican. The Bible doesn't tell us that that Rome as sovereignty over the kings of the earth. Do you think the Pope rules the world's leaders?

The Bible calls Jerusalem a great city.

Jerusalem, who had the role to bring God’s law to the rest of the nations, had a spiritual sovereignty over all the nations. And the Bible tells of Jerusalem's sovereignty over the kings of the earth: Psalm 2:6-9 "I myself have installed my king on Zion, my holy mountain.’ I will proclaim the decree of the Lord, who said to me, ‘You are my son; today I am your father. Only ask it of me, and I will make your inheritance the nations, your possession the ends of the earth. With an iron rod you shall shepherd them, like a clay pot you will shatter them.’ "

 

Revelation 15:v.2-4

2 And I saw as it were a sea (sea=waters=peoples, multitudes, nations and tongues, included the Beast of sea) of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the Beast (the Beast like a lamb, but speaak as a Dragon), and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass(the environment of the Beast of sea), having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

May the Lord God bless and keep us, and give us His protection

In Christ
Oseas

 

Oh dear. Rome prides herself as being the city of the seven hills. Rome is plainly shown as the city that was then ruling, 5 have fallen, One is (ruling at the time) One is to come, that refers to a change of dynasty, The "Christian Emperors" The eighth, which was different from the seven is the papal dynasty. Rome is the great City. The Megatropolis, the ruling empire at the time the book of Revelation was written. It was only the second empire that was named after a city. 1. Babylon. 2, Rome. Daniel's image (Ch 2) began with Babylon and ends with Rome, the second Babylon,. Daniel's image is still standing.

If you think that the book of Revelation was written to and for the Jews, you are greatly mistaken. It was written to the churches, for the churches. It is a history of the church and its tribulations, written in advance.
Revelation 1:4-5.

 

The Jews failed in that role. Jesus is the King ruling from Zion. Christians have come to Zion. Hebrews 12:22

 

No one has denied that Rome is known as a city on seven hills. But, your camp, while maybe not denying proven facts, won't admit to proven facts, talk about one's willingness to remain blind. Jerusalem is also known as a city on seven hills. Rome has no relevance today, and had little relevance yesterday.

Roma is a goddess, not a whore, and not a city.

 

Tell that to the Popes.

 

E B Elliott has diagrams of the coin in his work "Horae Apocalyptica" five editions from 1844 onwards onwards. He has diagrams of other papal medals, including one showing Rome offering the cup to the nations.

Available on Google books. I did dowload all four volumes some time ago, but recently only found the first and the fourth. (as free downloads)

 

"Let me now propose to you a puzzle. It is to condense into some brief, simple sentences, which could be read in a few minutes, an accurate, comprehensive, graphic summary of the thirteen hundred years of Papal history. Milman’s "History of Latin Christianity" is here on the table. It occupies nine octavo volumes, and would take weeks to read. Ranke’s "History of the Popes" is in three volumes, and does not cover the whole subject. D’Aubigne’s "History of the Reformation" is in five volumes, and takes up only one episode of the long story. The Papacy has existed for thirteen centuries, has had to do with forty or fifty generations of mankind in all the countries of Christendom. Its history is consequently extremely complicated and various. It embraces both secular and ecclesiastical matters, and has more or less to do with all that has happened in Europe since the fall of the old Roman empire. The time is long, the sphere is vast, the story exceedingly complex. I want you to tell it all, in outline at least, in a narrative that you could read in less than five minutes or write in ten. You must bring in every point of importance: the time and circumstances of the origin of the Papacy, its moral character, its political relations, its geographical seat, its self-exalting utterances and acts, its temporal sovereignty, and a comparison of the extent of its dominions with those of the other kingdoms of Europe; its blasphemous pretensions, its cruel and long-continued persecutions of God’s people, the duration of its dominion, its present decay, and the judgments that have overtaken it; and you must moreover add what you think its end is likely to be, and explain the relation of the whole history to the revealed plan of Divine providence.

You must get all this in not in the dry style of an annual Times summary of the events of the year - but in an interesting, vivid, picturesque style, that will impress the facts on the memory, so that to forget them shall be impossible.

Can you do it? I might safely offer a prize of any amount to the person who can solve this puzzle and write this story as I have described. But hard, even impossible as it would be for you to do this, even if you perfectly knew the history of the last thirteen centuries, how infinitely impossible would it be if that history lay in the unknown and inscrutable future, instead of in the past and present! If no eye had seen, nor ear heard it; if it was an untraversed continent, an unseen world, a matter for the evolution of the ages yet to come - who then could tell the story at all, much less in brief?

Now this is precisely what the prophet Daniel, by inspiration of the omniscient and eternal God, has done. He told the whole story of the Papacy twenty-five centuries ago. He omitted none of the points I have enumerated, and yet the prophecy only occupies seventeen verses of a chapter which can be read slowly and impressively in less than five minutes. This is because it was written in the only language in which it is possible thus to compress multum in parvo, the ancient language of hieroglyphics. God revealed the future to Daniel by a vision in which he saw, not the events, but the living, moving, speaking hieroglyphics of the events. These Daniel simply describes, and his description of them constitutes the prophecy written in the seventh chapter of his book. Our consideration of this remarkable prediction we must however postpone for the present, as we have already claimed your attention long enough for one lecture."
Henry Grattan Guinness, Romanism and the reformation. Lecture 1

 

Guinness books are on the Historicism.com site.
I did have the second edition from my father. I lost the 4th volume while commuting to London. My grandson took the 1st and 3rd vols. as he said he would be rebinding them, so I am left with the 2nd volume.
Google play has a abridged version, I think it is called A Paraphrase of The Horae Apocalyptica, Pretty much the same thing, I beleive, without most of the footnotes.
You can also get a reprint of the Appendix from the 4th vol. regarding thr historical interpretations of the Apocalypse, fom the ECF to the French Revolution, from Amazon for about $20.
I also think it is worth looking on the preterist site for the Philip Mauro Archive. I am not sure if he was a preterist as he believed the Antichrist is future, Philip Mauro (1859-1952) Study Archive @ PreteristArchive.com - The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism  |  PreteristArchive.com  |  Reformed,orthodox,futurist,preterism,historicism,dispensationalism,rapture,apocalypse,millennium
The earlier writings are when he was a dispensationalist, however the later writings are useful

He wrote:
(Of the "two stage secret rapture" theory)
"It is mortifying to remember that I not only held and taught these novelties myself, but that I even enjoyed a complacent sense of superiority because thereof, and regarded with feelings of pity and contempt those who had not received the ‘new light’ and were unacquainted with this up-to-date method of ‘rightly dividing the word of truth’... The time came... when the inconsistencies and self-contradictions of the system itself, and above all, the impossibility of reconciling its main positions with the plain statement of the Word of God, became so glaringly evident that I could not do otherwise than to renounce it" (Kingdom, pp.177,178)."

 

The greater mystery is who exactly is the beast upon whom the whor

 

The greater mystery is who is the beast upon whom the whore rides? The beast that persecutes the whore.

 

LECTURE 2

THE DANIEL FOREVIEW OF ROMANISM, SECOND PART

Allow me to commence this lecture by reading to you Daniel’s description of the divinely designed hieroglyph by which the history of Rome was prefigured. He has previously described the hieroglyphics of the Babylonian, Persian, and Grecian empires, and then he says:

After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever. Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

In these verses you have the entire story of the Papacy, and what is more, you have its future as well as its past, the judgment of God as to its moral character and deserts.

And how vivid the coloring, how graphic the picture! I wish I could paint, or, better still, display in action before your eyes, such a dreadful and terrible and exceedingly strong wild beast, with its brazen claws and iron teeth, and ravening, ferocious nature, with its ten horns and its strange, head-like "little horn," able to see and speak and blaspheme the Almighty, so as at last to bring down destruction on the beast itself! I wish I could let you watch it -- rending and tearing its enemies, breaking their bones in pieces, devouring their flesh, and in wanton, fierce ferocity stamping on and trampling with its brazen-clawed feet what it cannot consume! If you had learned the ABC of the language of hieroglyphics you would at once recognize that such creatures as this are figures of godless empires, kingdoms which are brutal in their ignorance of God, in their absence of self-control, in their bestial instincts; which love bloodshed and are reckless of human agony, selfish, terrible, cruel, mighty. They represent and recall proud military heroes, like Julius Caesar, who trample down all that oppose them; cruel despots, who oppress their fellows; reckless conquerors like Tamerlane and Napoleon, to whom the slaughter of millions of mankind was a matter of no moment. This is the generic signification of all such hieroglyphs.

But we are not left to guess the meaning and application of this particular monster. The symbol has a Divine interpretation. "The fourth beast," we read, "shall be the fourth kingdom upon the earth." That, beyond all question, was Rome, as all historians agree -- the fourth and last of the great universal empires of antiquity. The monster represents Rome, her whole existence as a supreme or ruling power, after the fall of the Greek or Macedonian beast before her attacks (197 B.C.). It represents therefore the history of Rome for over 2,000 years in the past, and on into a time still future; for, be it well noted, this beast ravages and rules, and his characteristic little horn blasphemes and boasts, right up to the point when empires like to wild beasts come to an end, and "the Son of man and the saints of the Most High take the kingdom and possess it for ever."

It is important that we should clearly grasp one great historical fact; i.e. the rule of Rome has never, since it first commenced, ceased to exist, save once, for a very brief period during the Gothic invasions. It has changed in character, as we have seen, but it has continued. Rome ruled the known world at the first advent of Christ, and still rules hundreds of millions of mankind, and will continue so to do right up till the second advent of Christ. So this prophecy teaches; for not until the Son of man takes the dominion of the earth, and establishes a kingdom that shall never pass away, is the monster representing Roman rule destroyed. The rule of Rome, we repeat, has never ceased. It was a secular pagan power for five or six centuries; it has been an ecclesiastical and apostate Christian power ever since, that is to say, for twelve or thirteen centuries. There lay a brief period between these two main stages, during which professing Christian emperors ruled from Rome, followed by an interval when, for a time, it seemed as if the great city had received a fatal blow from her Gothic captors. It seemed so; but it was not so, for the word of God cannot be broken. The rule of Rome revived in a new form, and was as real under the popes of the thirteenth century as it had been under the Caesars of the first. It was as oppressive, cruel, and bloody under Innocent III. as it had been under Nero and Domitian. The reality was the same, though the forms had changed. The Caesars did not persecute the witnesses of Jesus more severely and bitterly than did the popes; Diocletian did not destroy the saints or oppose the gospel more than did the Inquisition of Papal days. Rome is one and the same all through, both locally and morally. One dreadful wild beast represents her, though the symbol, like the history it prefigures, has two parts. There was the undivided stage, and there has been the tenfold stage. The one is Rome pagan, the other Rome Papal; the one is the old empire, the other the modern pontificate; the one is the empire of the Caesars, the other is the Roman Papacy.

I speak broadly, omitting all detail for the present. We shall find more of that when we come by- and-by to John’s later foreview. Daniel’s was a distant view in the days of Belshazzar, too distant altogether for detail. No artist paints the sheep on the hillside if the hill be fifty miles off; he may sketch its bold outline, but he omits minor detail. So Daniel’s distant foreview, dating from 2,500 years ago, shows the two great sections of Roman history -- the undivided military empire, followed by the commonwealth of Papal Christendom, the latter as truly Latin in character as the former; and he shows the end of Rome at the second advent of Christ. But he refrains from encumbering his striking sketch with confusing political details. He does not fail however to delineate fully the moral and religious features of the power ruling from Rome during the second half of the story, the power symbolized by the proud, intelligent, blasphemous, head-like "little horn" of the Roman beast. To this he devotes, on the contrary, the greater part of the prophecy; and I must ask you now carefully to note the various points that prove this horn to be a marvelous prophetic symbol or hieroglyph of the Roman Papacy, fitting it as one of Chubb’s keys fits the lock for which it is made, perfectly and in every part, while it refuses absolutely to adapt itself to any other.

To be continued

 

LECTURE 2 Continued
The main points in the nature, character, and actings of this "little horn," which we must note in order to discover the power intended, are these:

1. Its place: within the body of the fourth empire.

2. The period of its origin: soon after the division of the Roman territory into ten kingdoms.

3. Its nature: different from the other kingdoms, though in some respects like them. It was a horn, but with eyes and mouth. It would be a kingdom like the rest, a monarchy; but its kings would be overseers or bishops and prophets.

4. Its moral character: boastful and blasphemous; great words spoken against the Most High.

5. Its lawlessness: it would claim authority over times and laws.

6. Its opposition to the saints: it would be a persecuting power, and that for so long a period that it would wear out the saints of the Most High, who would be given into its hand for a time.

7. Its duration: "time, times and a half," or 1260 years.

8. Its doom: it would suffer the loss of its dominion before it was itself destroyed. "They shall take away its dominion, to consume and destroy it to the end."

Here are eight different and perfectly tangible features. If they all meet in one great reality, if we find them all characterizing one and the same power, can we question that is the power intended? They do all meet in the Roman Papacy, whose history I have just briefly recalled, and we are therefore bold to say it is the great and evil reality predicted. A few words on each of these points, to convince you that this is the case.

1. Its place. No one can question that the Papacy is a Roman, as distinguished from a Greek or an oriental, power. Its seat is the seven-hilled city; its tongue is the Latin language of Caesar and of Pliny and of Tacitus; its Church is the Church of Rome, and is the only Church that is or ever has been named from a city. Others have been named from countries or from men; the Papal Church alone bears the name of a city, and that city is Rome. The Papacy fulfills the first condition therefore.

2. Its time. We have shown that the last Bishop of Rome and the first pope was Boniface III., A.D. 607. Now the western empire of Rome came to an end with the fall of Romulus Augustulus, A.D. 476; that is, 130 years earlier. During that time the ten kingdoms were forming in the body of the old empire, and during that time the simple pastor of the Church was transformed into a pope. The little horn grew up among the ten. The Papacy developed synchronously with the Gothic kingdoms.

3. Its nature. The power symbolized by the little horn is of course a kingdom, like all the other ten; but it is not merely this. It is "diverse," or different from all the other ruling dynasties with which it is associated. It is a horn of the wild beast, but it has human eyes and a human voice, denoting its pretensions to be a seer, or prophet, and a teacher. It takes the oversight of all the ten, it is an overseer or bishop, and it has "a mouth speaking great things." Its paramount influence depends, not on its mere material power, for it is small as a kingdom, a "little horn," but on its religious pretensions. Does not this exactly portray the Papacy? Was it not diverse or different from all the Gothic kingdoms amid which it existed? Was it a mere kingdom? Nay, but a spiritual reign over the hearts and minds as well as the bodies of men a reign established by means, not of material weapons, but of spiritual pretensions. It was founded not on force, but on falsehood and fraud, and the superstitious fears of the half-civilized and ignorant Gothic kingdoms.

The popedom has always been eager to proclaim its own diversity from all other kingdoms. It claims "a princedom more perfect than every human princedom," surpassing them "as far as the light of the sun exceeds that of the moon." It arrogates to itself a character as superior to secular kingdoms as man to the irrational beasts. Its laws are made not with the best human wisdom; but auctoritate, scientia, ac plenitudine, with fullness of Divine knowledge and the fullness of apostolic power. Is not the Papacy sufficiently diverse from all the rest of the kingdoms of western Europe to identify it as the little horn? What other ruling monarch of Christendom ever pretended to apostolic authority, or ruled men in the name of God? Does the pope dress in royal robes? Nay, but in priestly garments. Does he wear a crown? Nay, but a triple tiara, to show that he reigns in heaven, earth, and hell? Does he wield a scepter? Nay, but a crosier or crook, to show that he is the good shepherd of the Church. Do his subjects kiss his hand? Nay, but his toe! Verily this power is "diverse" from the rest, both in great things and little. It is small in size, gigantic in its pretensions. It is, or was for centuries, one among many temporal kingdoms in Europe. It is the only one which claims a spiritual authority and universal dominion.

4. Its moral character. The salient feature here is the "mouth speaking very great things." Great words spoken against the Most High, and "a look more stout than his fellows." Audacious pride and bold blasphemy must characterize the power that fulfills this point of the symbol.

We ask then, Has the Papacy exhibited this mark also? Time would fail me to quote to you verbatim its great words, its boastful self-glorifications, and its outrageous blasphemies against God! You will find pages of them quoted in my work on "The Approaching End of the Age," and volumes filled with them exist, for Papal documents consist of little else. The Papal claims are so grotesque in their pride and self-exaltation, that they almost produce a sense of the comic, and that feeling of pitying contempt with which one would watch a frog trying to swell itself to the size of an ox! I must however mention some of the claims contained in these "great words," which will show you the nature of Papal blasphemies. It is claimed, for instance, that "no laws made contrary to the canons and decrees of Roman prelates have any force," that "the tribunals of all kings are subject to the priests," that "no man may act against the discipline of the Roman Church," that "the Papal decrees or decretal epistles are to be numbered among the canonical Scriptures," and not only so, but that the Scriptures themselves are to be received only "because a judgment of holy Pope Innocent was published for receiving them." It is claimed that "emperors ought to obey, and not rule over pontiffs"; that even an awfully wicked pope, who is a "slave of hell," may not be rebuked by mortal man, because "he is himself to judge all men and to be judged by none," and "since he was styled God by the pious prince Constantine, it is manifest that God cannot be judged by man"! They claim that no law, not even their own canon laws, can bind the popes; but that just as Christ, being maker of all laws and ordinances, could violate the law of the Sabbath, because He was Lord also of the Sabbath, so popes can dispense with any law, to show they are above all law!

It is claimed that the chair of St. Peter, the see of Rome, is "made the head of the world"; that it is not to be subject to any man, "since by the Divine mouth it is exalted above all." In the canon laws the Roman pontiff is described as "our Lord God the pope," and said to be "neither God nor man, but both." But the climax of assumption, the keystone of the arch of Papal pretension, is probably to be found in the "extravagant" of Boniface VIII., the Unam Sanctam, which runs thus: "All the faithful of Christ by necessity of salvation are subject to the Roman pontiff, who judges all men, but is judged by no one." "This authority is not human, but rather Divine..Therefore we declare, assert, define, and pronounce, that to be subject to the Roman pontiff is to every human creature altogether necessary for salvation."

All these claims were incessantly and universally urged all down the centuries by the popes of Rome, and are still advanced, as boldly as ever, in official decretals, bulls, extravagants, decisions of canonists, sentences of judges, books, catechisms, sermons, and treatises of all kinds. There is no mistaking what they amount to. The pope claims Divine inspiration, his words are to be received as the words of God; no laws can bind him, he is supreme over all; the very Scriptures derive their authority from him; implicit obedience to him is the only way of salvation. He is exalted above all, supreme over all nations, kings, emperors, princes, bishops, archbishops, Churches, over all the world; he is as God on earth, and as such to be worshipped and obeyed. Let me quote you from his own lips some of the great words of the little horn. The following language affords a mere sample of thousands of such Papal blasphemies.

To be continued.