Featured Ephesians 2

[John 3:1-6 NASB]

• 1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God [as] a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." 3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

You are conflating the physical and spiritual birth, just as Nicodemus did. (However, you will not listen to me any more than you have been willing to consider the words of anyone else, so I will just present Jesus words and leave it at that.)

 

1) Why address me (you are conflating) rather than the 3 scriptures?
2) Why make a false charge (you are not willing) rather than the 3 scriptures?
3) John 3:1-6 supports my view and refutes the view of individual election before creation once again. Every individual must be physically born, then born anew spiritually to enter the kingdom of God. At conception, we are born spiritually dead, separated from God, because we are conceived in sin. (Psalm 51:5) Then if God credits our faith as righteousness, God puts us in Christ where we are made alive together with Christ, our spiritual rebirth.

 

Because your claim “Ephesians 2:1 demonstrates that Ephesians 1:4 refers to a corporate election rather than an individual (or foreseen individual) election.” is at best unproven [and at worst false] and has been addressed by others, but you respond by simply repeating your opinion as fact.

Was Nicodemus born an Israelite and a member of the “elect” Nation of “God’s people”? Physically, yes, but as Jesus makes clear ... Spiritually, NO!

No one is Physically born a new Spiritual birth. Thus as Ephesians says we were all sinners.

You have assumed a priori, but not actually demonstrated, that Spiritual election cannot be from eternity past and still manifest at a specific point in time.

Thus it is entirely possible for God to make a spiritual decision to elect someone “before the foundation of the world” and for that person to later be physically born under the Adamic curse and to live a life of transgression until a predetermined point in time when that same person will be spiritually “born from above” and the Spiritual reality will put to death the physical reality ... in part while they are in this world and being actively sanctified, and in full when they pass on into complete glorification.

Since scripture allows for this possibility, however vehemently you deny it, your statement that “Eph 2:1 DEMONSTRATES”, does nothing of the sort. You have presented one POSSIBLE interpretation and refuse to engage with any alternative views. You are “begging the question”.

 

Thanks for actually addressing the premise. Refreshing.

1) The naysayers continue to claim the verses have been "addressed" but without a quote or reference to the post. Twaddle

2) We agree, everyone is physically born spiritually dead in sin. Thus no one is elect at birth because that charge cannot be made against the elect.

3) The claim a person can be elect yet not yet "manifest election" is drivel. If we are not a people, then are a people, the dividing point is election to be a people. The idea we are not manifesting being a people, yet actually have been chosen as God's people is ludicrous.

4) Scripture does not "allow" for election to mean being chosen in one place, and manifesting being chosen in another place. Scripture indicates no charge can be brought against God's elect, indicating the election results in justification. Otherwise Romans 8:33 would read, who can bring a charge against those manifesting election. Not how it reads.

5) Ditto for Ephesians 2:5 . If Ephesians 1:4 means we are individually "in Him" before creation (and it does not) then we would be born alive together with Christ. Not how Ephesians 2 reads.

The premise that by adding to scripture you can "allow" alternate possibilities does not move the needle. Words have meanings. Election and choice means God has made an election or choice, and does not mean the choice has been made but not manifested. That is rewriting the word meaning to fit bogus doctrine.

 

The smears, false charges, and misrepresentations keep coming. What a waste.
All they have is to post "taint so."

When a person is chosen they are chosen through sanctification (being set apart in Christ). When a person is set apart in Christ, they undergo the circumcision of Christ, and the washing of regeneration. Therefore, when a person is individually placed in Christ they are justified. 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

When God chooses an individual for salvation, they become one of God's chosen people, the elect. When they are chosen, they are placed in Christ, justified, and therefore they are no longer dead in their sin, they are alive together with Christ. So if a person is dead in sin, they are not elect at that time.

Pay no attention to those who redefine "elect" to mean "manifesting their election." It's twaddle.

 

Did you see any rebuttal? Nope, neither did I.

When a person is chosen they are chosen through sanctification (being set apart in Christ). When a person is set apart in Christ, they undergo the circumcision of Christ, and the washing of regeneration. Therefore, when a person is individually placed in Christ they are justified. 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

When God chooses an individual for salvation, they become one of God's chosen people, the elect. When they are chosen, they are placed in Christ, justified, and therefore they are no longer dead in their sin, they are alive together with Christ. So if a person is dead in sin, they are not elect at that time.

 

So you ignore the phrase "chosen from before the foundation of the world."

 

Yes, I ignore your edited version. How about " just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world" (Ephesians 1:4 NASB snippet)

When God chose "Him" which refers to His Lamb of God, His Redeemer, He also chose corporately all those His Redeemer would redeem.

Your view, claiming the verse means God chose foreseen individuals without regard to their foreseen faith, is precluded by 1 Peter 2:9-10, which you seem to ignore. How could we be "not a people" is we had been chosen individually as His people? No answer will be forthcoming.

 

No, it says that I was chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. It fits with Ephesians 2:5-6 which says I am alive with Christ and seated in the heavenlies with Christ. It connects to Ephesians 1:20-21.
But, you seem to reject God's foreknowledge and predestination. Odd.

 

Yet another post featuring falsehood and ad hominem. Go figure.

When are we made alive? When we are set apart in Christ!
When are we set apart in Christ? After we were not a people and when we were chosen to be His possession.
How could we be not a people if we were chosen before creation? We could not.
Therefore being chosen individually during our lifetime on the basis of God crediting our faith as righteousness connects up with all scripture.
Does God exercise His foreknowledge? Yes, Christ was put to death according to God's predetermined plan and foreknowledge.
Does God predestine future occurrences? Yes, every born anew believer is predestined to be raised in glorified bodies at Christ's second coming, Romans 8:23.
Does God predestined future occurrences? Yes, every born anew believer is predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. Romans 8:29
When are we seated in the heavenlies? When God sets us apart in Christ on the basis of God crediting our faith as righteousness.

 

Yet another taint so post, devoid of any defense of obviously false doctrine.

When a person is chosen they are chosen through sanctification (being set apart in Christ). When a person is set apart in Christ, they undergo the circumcision of Christ, and the washing of regeneration. Therefore, when a person is individually placed in Christ they are justified. 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

When God chooses an individual for salvation, they become one of God's chosen people, the elect. When they are chosen, they are placed in Christ, justified, and therefore they are no longer dead in their sin, they are alive together with Christ. So if a person is dead in sin, they are not elect at that time.

 

Van, I notice you simply cannot argue honestly. I have you on ignore.

 

I have become convinced that Van has chosen a schtick to perform that has nothing to do with arguing any topic, but purely with the intent to troll and obfuscate topics. I have place him on ignore because he simply has no argument.

 

We agree that everyone is born “spiritually dead in sin”.

• [Rom 3:10-12 NASB] 10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
  
• [Eph 2:1-3 NASB] 1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

However, there is no “THUS”. You have made a non sequitur (the conclusion does not follow from the evidence that preceded it). We do not agree that no one is “elect” at birth, we merely agree that no one is born justified at birth. Election is not the same as justification.

• [Rom 8:28-30 NASB] 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

All things are “according to HIS purpose”, so God is the first cause and the prime mover in what follows, not the will of man. God FOREKNEW, God PREDESTINED and God CALLED all before God Justified, so where is the smoking gun that utterly refutes the possibility that God’s “Chosen” (aka ‘elect’) were Foreknown and Predestined before they were born (like Moses and Sampson and John the Baptist) and were “chosen/elect” even before they were called and they came into the fullness of their relationship at “just the right time” (like Moses at the burning bush or Saul on the road to Damascus).

 

Once again, an effort to change the subject from Ephesians 2 to bashing Van. Twaddle, sandbox twaddle.

Each and every person listed fits Van's Biblical understanding.

Every figure conforms to Van's Biblical presentation.

All the names of the redeemed are written in the Lamb's book of life after they have been made perfect. Which means after God credits their faith as righteousness and places them in Christ.

My view is God makes and carries out plans, whereas this Calvinist claimed God does not make or formulate plans.

The bible describes when Peter and Christ's other disciples were chosen to be His apostles. And of course that matches Van's Biblical presentation of the individual elections of God.

Just read Acts 16:6-10, where Paul was told in a vision to go to Macedonia.

Does the Bible teach God sometimes does pre-select individuals to carry out His plans years before they are born? Of course, so all this misrepresentation is just another fabrication of deflection, falsehood upon falsehood.

My view presents God as all powerful and all knowing, but a God who desires all people to be saved according to His predetermined plan, which is by persuasion and not compulsion.

 

Yet another ad hominem post, devoid of on topic content.