Ephesians 2

[atpollard]

Yet another deflection, addressing me to change the subject. What a waste of electrons.

Was this difficulty addressed? Nope.

Ephesians 2:1 demonstrates that Ephesians 1:4 refers to a corporate election rather than an individual (or foreseen individual) election. Who can bring a charge against God's elect? No one, not even Paul, can because it is God who justifies. (Romans 8:33) Therefore the people of Ephesians 2:1 were not elect at that time. Our individual election for salvation occurs during our lifetime after we had been "dead in our trespasses and sins."

Ephesians 2:5 demonstrates we were dead in our transgressions when we were made alive together with Christ. If we had been individually chosen and put in Him before the foundation, then we would always been alive and would have never been dead, separated from Him.

1 Peter 2:10 demonstrates we once were not a people and once had not received mercy, but now we are a people of God and have received mercy. Therefore our election (chosen to be a people for God's own possession) occurred during our lifetime after we had lived without mercy and were not a people.

Folks, the question is how many lines of evidence must be presented before the truth of scripture will be accepted?

[John 3:1-6 NASB]

• 1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God [as] a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." 3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

You are conflating the physical and spiritual birth, just as Nicodemus did. (However, you will not listen to me any more than you have been willing to consider the words of anyone else, so I will just present Jesus words and leave it at that.)

 

[Van]

[John 3:1-6 NASB]

• 1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God [as] a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." 3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

You are conflating the physical and spiritual birth, just as Nicodemus did. (However, you will not listen to me any more than you have been willing to consider the words of anyone else, so I will just present Jesus words and leave it at that.)

1) Why address me (you are conflating) rather than the 3 scriptures?
2) Why make a false charge (you are not willing) rather than the 3 scriptures?
3) John 3:1-6 supports my view and refutes the view of individual election before creation once again. Every individual must be physically born, then born anew spiritually to enter the kingdom of God. At conception, we are born spiritually dead, separated from God, because we are conceived in sin. (Psalm 51:5) Then if God credits our faith as righteousness, God puts us in Christ where we are made alive together with Christ, our spiritual rebirth.

 

[atpollard]

1) Why address me (you are conflating) rather than the 3 scriptures?
2) Why make a false charge (you are not willing) rather than the 3 scriptures?
3) John 3:1-6 supports my view and refutes the view of individual election before creation once again. Every individual must be physically born, then born anew spiritually to enter the kingdom of God. At conception, we are born spiritually dead, separated from God, because we are conceived in sin. (Psalm 51:5) Then if God credits our faith as righteousness, God puts us in Christ where we are made alive together with Christ, our spiritual rebirth.

Because your claim “Ephesians 2:1 demonstrates that Ephesians 1:4 refers to a corporate election rather than an individual (or foreseen individual) election.” is at best unproven [and at worst false] and has been addressed by others, but you respond by simply repeating your opinion as fact.

Was Nicodemus born an Israelite and a member of the “elect” Nation of “God’s people”? Physically, yes, but as Jesus makes clear ... Spiritually, NO!

No one is Physically born a new Spiritual birth. Thus as Ephesians says we were all sinners.

You have assumed a priori, but not actually demonstrated, that Spiritual election cannot be from eternity past and still manifest at a specific point in time.

Thus it is entirely possible for God to make a spiritual decision to elect someone “before the foundation of the world” and for that person to later be physically born under the Adamic curse and to live a life of transgression until a predetermined point in time when that same person will be spiritually “born from above” and the Spiritual reality will put to death the physical reality ... in part while they are in this world and being actively sanctified, and in full when they pass on into complete glorification.

Since scripture allows for this possibility, however vehemently you deny it, your statement that “Eph 2:1 DEMONSTRATES”, does nothing of the sort. You have presented one POSSIBLE interpretation and refuse to engage with any alternative views. You are “begging the question”.

 

[Van]

Because your claim “Ephesians 2:1 demonstrates that Ephesians 1:4 refers to a corporate election rather than an individual (or foreseen individual) election.” is at best unproven [and at worst false] and has been addressed by others, but you respond by simply repeating your opinion as fact.

Was Nicodemus born an Israelite and a member of the “elect” Nation of “God’s people”? Physically, yes, but as Jesus makes clear ... Spiritually, NO!

No one is Physically born a new Spiritual birth. Thus as Ephesians says we were all sinners.

You have assumed a priori, but not actually demonstrated, that Spiritual election cannot be from eternity past and still manifest at a specific point in time.

Thus it is entirely possible for God to make a spiritual decision to elect someone “before the foundation of the world” and for that person to later be physically born under the Adamic curse and to live a life of transgression until a predetermined point in time when that same person will be spiritually “born from above” and the Spiritual reality will put to death the physical reality ... in part while they are in this world and being actively sanctified, and in full when they pass on into complete glorification.

Since scripture allows for this possibility, however vehemently you deny it, your statement that “Eph 2:1 DEMONSTRATES”, does nothing of the sort. You have presented one POSSIBLE interpretation and refuse to engage with any alternative views. You are “begging the question”.

Thanks for actually addressing the premise. Refreshing.

1) The naysayers continue to claim the verses have been "addressed" but without a quote or reference to the post. Twaddle

2) We agree, everyone is physically born spiritually dead in sin. Thus no one is elect at birth because that charge cannot be made against the elect.

3) The claim a person can be elect yet not yet "manifest election" is drivel. If we are not a people, then are a people, the dividing point is election to be a people. The idea we are not manifesting being a people, yet actually have been chosen as God's people is ludicrous.

4) Scripture does not "allow" for election to mean being chosen in one place, and manifesting being chosen in another place. Scripture indicates no charge can be brought against God's elect, indicating the election results in justification. Otherwise Romans 8:33 would read, who can bring a charge against those manifesting election. Not how it reads.

5) Ditto for Ephesians 2:5 . If Ephesians 1:4 means we are individually "in Him" before creation (and it does not) then we would be born alive together with Christ. Not how Ephesians 2 reads.

The premise that by adding to scripture you can "allow" alternate possibilities does not move the needle. Words have meanings. Election and choice means God has made an election or choice, and does not mean the choice has been made but not manifested. That is rewriting the word meaning to fit bogus doctrine.

 

[agedman]

Thanks for actually addressing the premise. Refreshing.

1) The naysayers continue to claim the verses have been "addressed" but without a quote or reference to the post. Twaddle

2) We agree, everyone is physically born spiritually dead in sin. Thus no one is elect at birth because that charge cannot be made against the elect.

Only in your mind.

You think one that is elect is at that time justified. Nope.

3) The claim a person can be elect yet not yet "manifest election" is drivel. If we are not a people, then are a people, the dividing point is election to be a people. The idea we are not manifesting being a people, yet actually have been chosen as God's people is ludicrous.

Did God choose Abraham?

When did God choose Abraham?

When did God TELL Abraham that he was chosen?

Your thinking doesn't hold up to the simplest of practical example.

4) Scripture does not "allow" for election to mean being chosen in one place, and manifesting being chosen in another place. Scripture indicates no charge can be brought against God's elect, indicating the election results in justification. Otherwise Romans 8:33 would read, who can bring a charge against those manifesting election. Not how it reads.

I just showed how most certainly Scriptures do.

Another example?

How about Elisha?

When did God choose Elisha?

When did Elisha know God chose him?

Another example?

When did God choose Moses?

When did Moses know God chose him?


Again, your thinking doesn't hold up to the simplest practical example.

5) Ditto for Ephesians 2:5 . If Ephesians 1:4 means we are individually "in Him" before creation (and it does not) then we would be born alive together with Christ. Not how Ephesians 2 reads.

Because your whole presentation is error, it is found that your application to Ephesians is also in error.

The premise that by adding to scripture you can "allow" alternate possibilities does not move the needle. Words have meanings. Election and choice means God has made an election or choice, and does not mean the choice has been made but not manifested. That is rewriting the word meaning to fit bogus doctrine.

FINALLY, there is something of which in part can be agreed in this post!

God certainly makes choices and elects according to HIS purpose. His Word have meaning.

God's choices will certainly all be manifested in accordance with HIS perfect will. Just as it is written of Christ, "In the fullness of time."

Therefore, the rewriting of Scriptures in which you present your bogus doctrine is manifested as error.

Do you think that everyone in Heaven knows everything that is going on?

Do you think that God knows everything that not only is going on, but will come to pass?

Or is your thinking that God is in some manner not all knowing?

 

[Van]

The smears, false charges, and misrepresentations keep coming. What a waste.
All they have is to post "taint so."

When a person is chosen they are chosen through sanctification (being set apart in Christ). When a person is set apart in Christ, they undergo the circumcision of Christ, and the washing of regeneration. Therefore, when a person is individually placed in Christ they are justified. 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

When God chooses an individual for salvation, they become one of God's chosen people, the elect. When they are chosen, they are placed in Christ, justified, and therefore they are no longer dead in their sin, they are alive together with Christ. So if a person is dead in sin, they are not elect at that time.

Pay no attention to those who redefine "elect" to mean "manifesting their election." It's twaddle.

 

[agedman]

The smears, false charges, and misrepresentations keep coming. What a waste.
All they have is to post "taint so."

Pay no attention to those who redefine "elect" to mean "manifesting their election." It's twaddle.

Merely an agenda driven post based upon both false accusations and bogus doctrine.

Isn’t that close to what your response usually includes?

Your version of presentation doesn’t conform to Paul’s:

11Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.
​

Would you like to attempt to support your view by dealing with Ephesians 4?

How much more Scripture will it take until you are willing to recant and conform to the Scripture?

 

[Van]

Merely an agenda driven post based upon both false accusations and bogus doctrine.

Isn’t that close to what your response usually includes?

Your version of presentation doesn’t conform to Paul’s:

11Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.
​

Would you like to attempt to support your view by dealing with Ephesians 4?

How much more Scripture will it take until you are willing to recant and conform to the Scripture?

Did you see any rebuttal? Nope, neither did I.

When a person is chosen they are chosen through sanctification (being set apart in Christ). When a person is set apart in Christ, they undergo the circumcision of Christ, and the washing of regeneration. Therefore, when a person is individually placed in Christ they are justified. 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

When God chooses an individual for salvation, they become one of God's chosen people, the elect. When they are chosen, they are placed in Christ, justified, and therefore they are no longer dead in their sin, they are alive together with Christ. So if a person is dead in sin, they are not elect at that time.

 

[Particular]

Did you see any rebuttal? Nope, neither did I.

When a person is chosen they are chosen through sanctification (being set apart in Christ). When a person is set apart in Christ, they undergo the circumcision of Christ, and the washing of regeneration. Therefore, when a person is individually placed in Christ they are justified. 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

When God chooses an individual for salvation, they become one of God's chosen people, the elect. When they are chosen, they are placed in Christ, justified, and therefore they are no longer dead in their sin, they are alive together with Christ. So if a person is dead in sin, they are not elect at that time.

So you ignore the phrase "chosen from before the foundation of the world."

 

[Van]

So you ignore the phrase "chosen from before the foundation of the world."

Yes, I ignore your edited version. How about " just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world" (Ephesians 1:4 NASB snippet)

When God chose "Him" which refers to His Lamb of God, His Redeemer, He also chose corporately all those His Redeemer would redeem.

Your view, claiming the verse means God chose foreseen individuals without regard to their foreseen faith, is precluded by 1 Peter 2:9-10, which you seem to ignore. How could we be "not a people" is we had been chosen individually as His people? No answer will be forthcoming.

 

[Particular]

Yes, I ignore your edited version. How about " just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world" (Ephesians 1:4 NASB snippet)

When God chose "Him" which refers to His Lamb of God, His Redeemer, He also chose corporately all those His Redeemer would redeem.

Your view, claiming the verse means God chose foreseen individuals without regard to their foreseen faith, is precluded by 1 Peter 2:9-10, which you seem to ignore. How could we be "not a people" is we had been chosen individually as His people? No answer will be forthcoming.

No, it says that I was chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. It fits with Ephesians 2:5-6 which says I am alive with Christ and seated in the heavenlies with Christ. It connects to Ephesians 1:20-21.
But, you seem to reject God's foreknowledge and predestination. Odd.

 

[agedman]

Did you see any rebuttal? Nope, neither did I.

When a person is chosen they are chosen through sanctification (being set apart in Christ). When a person is set apart in Christ, they undergo the circumcision of Christ, and the washing of regeneration. Therefore, when a person is individually placed in Christ they are justified. 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

When God chooses an individual for salvation, they become one of God's chosen people, the elect. When they are chosen, they are placed in Christ, justified, and therefore they are no longer dead in their sin, they are alive together with Christ. So if a person is dead in sin, they are not elect at that time.

Making all manner of assumptions does not conform Scriptures to your preconceptions.

 

[Van]

No, it says that I was chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. It fits with Ephesians 2:5-6 which says I am alive with Christ and seated in the heavenlies with Christ. It connects to Ephesians 1:20-21.
But, you seem to reject God's foreknowledge and predestination. Odd.

Yet another post featuring falsehood and ad hominem. Go figure.

When are we made alive? When we are set apart in Christ!
When are we set apart in Christ? After we were not a people and when we were chosen to be His possession.
How could we be not a people if we were chosen before creation? We could not.
Therefore being chosen individually during our lifetime on the basis of God crediting our faith as righteousness connects up with all scripture.
Does God exercise His foreknowledge? Yes, Christ was put to death according to God's predetermined plan and foreknowledge.
Does God predestine future occurrences? Yes, every born anew believer is predestined to be raised in glorified bodies at Christ's second coming, Romans 8:23.
Does God predestined future occurrences? Yes, every born anew believer is predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. Romans 8:29
When are we seated in the heavenlies? When God sets us apart in Christ on the basis of God crediting our faith as righteousness.

 

[Van]

Making all manner of assumptions does not conform Scriptures to your preconceptions.

Yet another taint so post, devoid of any defense of obviously false doctrine.

When a person is chosen they are chosen through sanctification (being set apart in Christ). When a person is set apart in Christ, they undergo the circumcision of Christ, and the washing of regeneration. Therefore, when a person is individually placed in Christ they are justified. 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

When God chooses an individual for salvation, they become one of God's chosen people, the elect. When they are chosen, they are placed in Christ, justified, and therefore they are no longer dead in their sin, they are alive together with Christ. So if a person is dead in sin, they are not elect at that time.

 

[agedman]

When one runs out of meaningful ways to refute a view, the typical response seems to revert back to the earliest playground banter.

That of repeating word for word what they said.

Thoughtfulness would find some other example, anecdote, and even a drawing/illustration to attempt in getting the view across.

More often, on the playground, the matter becomes one of who is the loudest, has the meanest look, or can physically intimidate.

On the BB, more often it is shown by the presentation of multiple supporting passages in which the typical 5th grade reading level student can follow and understand.

@Van has resorted to repetition thinking that resolves the problems and folks will be persuaded.

Here is a short list of Bible Characters that do not fit @Van’s scheme:
Adam,
Seth,
Noah,
Job,
Abraham,
Isaac,
Jacob,
Joseph,
Judah,
Samson,
Samuel,
Elijah,
Elisha,
David,
Solomon,
Jonah,
Daniel,
And so forth....

At what point did any OT character conform to @Van’s presentation?

John the Baptist,
Mary,
Joseph,
The shepherds,
The Apostles,
Paul,
Cornelius,
Timothy,
John Mark,
And so forth....

At what point did any NT character conform to @Van’s presentation?

That is the problem with his view.

Not only is the Scriptures remade to fit, not a single example can be presented as a model.

Yet, he will post the same word for word presentation.

It is Christmas. In the story of the
Lord’s first advent as found in Matthew and Luke, there is a genealogy given.

According to Van’s thinking, God had no specific plan of exactly who, when, where in the linage, but all just kind of fell into place as the corporate worked to this point in time.

Peter wasn’t specifically sent in response to God’s specific preselected choosing.

Paul did not turn to Macedonia in response to God’s specific preselected choosing.

No one, according to @Van’s scheme could be preselected, but election had to wait until a certain TIME in which God would “elect.”

This view fails from even the basic understanding of the authority of God.

God is not conformed to time and space. Such is created and manipulated by Him at His pleasure.

What will @Van have in response?

Certainly not agreement that all names of all redeemed were recorded by the time the very creation was begun, as Revelation 13:8 states.

 

[Particular]

Yet another post featuring falsehood and ad hominem. Go figure.

When are we made alive? When we are set apart in Christ!
When are we set apart in Christ? After we were not a people and when we were chosen to be His possession.
How could we be not a people if we were chosen before creation? We could not.
Therefore being chosen individually during our lifetime on the basis of God crediting our faith as righteousness connects up with all scripture.
Does God exercise His foreknowledge? Yes, Christ was put to death according to God's predetermined plan and foreknowledge.
Does God predestine future occurrences? Yes, every born anew believer is predestined to be raised in glorified bodies at Christ's second coming, Romans 8:23.
Does God predestined future occurrences? Yes, every born anew believer is predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. Romans 8:29
When are we seated in the heavenlies? When God sets us apart in Christ on the basis of God crediting our faith as righteousness.

Van, I notice you simply cannot argue honestly. I have you on ignore.

 

[Particular]

When one runs out of meaningful ways to refute a view, the typical response seems to revert back to the earliest playground banter.

That of repeating word for word what they said.

Thoughtfulness would find some other example, anecdote, and even a drawing/illustration to attempt in getting the view across.

More often, on the playground, the matter becomes one of who is the loudest, has the meanest look, or can physically intimidate.

On the BB, more often it is shown by the presentation of multiple supporting passages in which the typical 5th grade reading level student can follow and understand.

@Van has resorted to repetition thinking that resolves the problems and folks will be persuaded.

Here is a short list of Bible Characters that do not fit @Van’s scheme:
Adam,
Seth,
Noah,
Job,
Abraham,
Isaac,
Jacob,
Joseph,
Judah,
Samson,
Samuel,
Elijah,
Elisha,
David,
Solomon,
Jonah,
Daniel,
And so forth....

At what point did any OT character conform to @Van’s presentation?

John the Baptist,
Mary,
Joseph,
The shepherds,
The Apostles,
Paul,
Cornelius,
Timothy,
John Mark,
And so forth....

At what point did any NT character conform to @Van’s presentation?

That is the problem with his view.

Not only is the Scriptures remade to fit, not a single example can be presented as a model.

Yet, he will post the same word for word presentation.

It is Christmas. In the story of the
Lord’s first advent as found in Matthew and Luke, there is a genealogy given.

According to Van’s thinking, God had no specific plan of exactly who, when, where in the linage, but all just kind of fell into place as the corporate worked to this point in time.

Peter wasn’t specifically sent in response to God’s specific preselected choosing.

Paul did not turn to Macedonia in response to God’s specific preselected choosing.

No one, according to @Van’s scheme could be preselected, but election had to wait until a certain TIME in which God would “elect.”

This view fails from even the basic understanding of the authority of God.

God is not conformed to time and space. Such is created and manipulated by Him at His pleasure.

What will @Van have in response?

Certainly not agreement that all names of all redeemed were recorded by the time the very creation was begun, as Revelation 13:8 states.

I have become convinced that Van has chosen a schtick to perform that has nothing to do with arguing any topic, but purely with the intent to troll and obfuscate topics. I have place him on ignore because he simply has no argument.

 

[atpollard]

2) We agree, everyone is physically born spiritually dead in sin. Thus no one is elect at birth because that charge cannot be made against the elect.

We agree that everyone is born “spiritually dead in sin”.

• [Rom 3:10-12 NASB] 10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
  
• [Eph 2:1-3 NASB] 1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

However, there is no “THUS”. You have made a non sequitur (the conclusion does not follow from the evidence that preceded it). We do not agree that no one is “elect” at birth, we merely agree that no one is born justified at birth. Election is not the same as justification.

• [Rom 8:28-30 NASB] 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

All things are “according to HIS purpose”, so God is the first cause and the prime mover in what follows, not the will of man. God FOREKNEW, God PREDESTINED and God CALLED all before God Justified, so where is the smoking gun that utterly refutes the possibility that God’s “Chosen” (aka ‘elect’) were Foreknown and Predestined before they were born (like Moses and Sampson and John the Baptist) and were “chosen/elect” even before they were called and they came into the fullness of their relationship at “just the right time” (like Moses at the burning bush or Saul on the road to Damascus).

 

[Van]

@Van has resorted to repetition thinking that resolves the problems and folks will be persuaded.

Here is a short list of Bible Characters that do not fit @Van’s scheme:
Adam,
Seth,
Noah,
Job,
Abraham,
Isaac,
Jacob,
Joseph,
Judah,
Samson,
Samuel,
Elijah,
Elisha,
David,
Solomon,
Jonah,
Daniel,
And so forth....

At what point did any OT character conform to @Van’s presentation?

John the Baptist,
Mary,
Joseph,
The shepherds,
The Apostles,
Paul,
Cornelius,
Timothy,
John Mark,
And so forth....

At what point did any NT character conform to @Van’s presentation?

That is the problem with his view.

According to Van’s thinking, God had no specific plan of exactly who, when, where in the linage, but all just kind of fell into place as the corporate worked to this point in time.

Peter wasn’t specifically sent in response to God’s specific preselected choosing.

Paul did not turn to Macedonia in response to God’s specific preselected choosing.

No one, according to @Van’s scheme could be preselected, but election had to wait until a certain TIME in which God would “elect.”

This view fails from even the basic understanding of the authority of God.

What will @Van have in response?

Certainly not agreement that all names of all redeemed were recorded by the time the very creation was begun, as Revelation 13:8 states.

Once again, an effort to change the subject from Ephesians 2 to bashing Van. Twaddle, sandbox twaddle.

Each and every person listed fits Van's Biblical understanding.

Every figure conforms to Van's Biblical presentation.

All the names of the redeemed are written in the Lamb's book of life after they have been made perfect. Which means after God credits their faith as righteousness and places them in Christ.

My view is God makes and carries out plans, whereas this Calvinist claimed God does not make or formulate plans.

The bible describes when Peter and Christ's other disciples were chosen to be His apostles. And of course that matches Van's Biblical presentation of the individual elections of God.

Just read Acts 16:6-10, where Paul was told in a vision to go to Macedonia.

Does the Bible teach God sometimes does pre-select individuals to carry out His plans years before they are born? Of course, so all this misrepresentation is just another fabrication of deflection, falsehood upon falsehood.

My view presents God as all powerful and all knowing, but a God who desires all people to be saved according to His predetermined plan, which is by persuasion and not compulsion.

 

[Van]

Van, I notice you simply cannot argue honestly. I have you on ignore.

Yet another ad hominem post, devoid of on topic content.