For God so loved the world (Earth as the temple of God)

[agedman]

This thread has the unBiblical premise that the earth is somehow God's temple. The written word of God calls it His footstool. ". . . Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: . . ." -- Isaiah 66:1. ". . . Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: . . ." -- Acts of the Apostles 2:49.

Is that really the argument put forth in the OP?

Perhaps I missed it.

But, as it points to John 3:16, here is were I disagree with a cited article.

The article’s ending paragraph states:

“The debate over LA is often characterized as a debate over the extent of the atonement. For whom did Christ die? For everyone or for the elect alone? But this isn’t quite right. The real issue concerns the intent of the atonement. For what specific purpose did God send his Son into the world to make atonement? Was it God’s purpose to try to save everyone (knowing that not everyone would be saved) or to save his chosen people (knowing that they would indeed be saved)? Was it God’s plan to make salvation generally available, in a indefinite fashion, or to actually save a definite group of people?” (John 3:16 Teaches Limited Atonement - The Aquila Report)
​

I don’t see the atonement as the focus of John 3:16 at all.

Folks generally take the word ”gave” as pointing to the crucifixion. I think that is a very weak assumption that I and most others have made.

Christ is stating factually the mission, “to seek and save....” was from the authority of the Father as the ultimate expression and only offer for eternal life.

Making the verse into a statement of atonement, other than the limit comes because not all believe, seems to be a ploy more commonly found in emotional persuasion by frenzied evangelist than the pure declaration of the Scriptures.

There are far better, more pointed single sentences from John that would better support the “extent” or even “intent” of the atonement.

Here is one:

1Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
​

 

[Particular]

I offer for your consideration a sermon by Dr. Chad Causey that I found thought provoking ...

(start at 42:40 for the sermon, I can’t get the link to start anywhere but the beginning of the service)

What are we supposed to be listening for in this video? The speaker seems to be bouncing around in scripture. What is his main point?
Perhaps you could summarize the points of this sermon that you wish to highlight.

 

[37818]

Is that really the argument put forth in the OP?

Perhaps I missed it.

But, as it points to John 3:16, here is were I disagree with a cited article.

The article’s ending paragraph states:

“The debate over LA is often characterized as a debate over the extent of the atonement. For whom did Christ die? For everyone or for the elect alone? But this isn’t quite right. The real issue concerns the intent of the atonement. For what specific purpose did God send his Son into the world to make atonement? Was it God’s purpose to try to save everyone (knowing that not everyone would be saved) or to save his chosen people (knowing that they would indeed be saved)? Was it God’s plan to make salvation generally available, in a indefinite fashion, or to actually save a definite group of people?” (John 3:16 Teaches Limited Atonement - The Aquila Report)
​

I don’t see the atonement as the focus of John 3:16 at all.

Folks generally take the word ”gave” as pointing to the crucifixion. I think that is a very weak assumption that I and most others have made.

Christ is stating factually the mission, “to seek and save....” was from the authority of the Father as the ultimate expression and only offer for eternal life.

Making the verse into a statement of atonement, other than the limit comes because not all believe, seems to be a ploy more commonly found in emotional persuasion by frenzied evangelist than the pure declaration of the Scriptures.

There are far better, more pointed single sentences from John that would better support the “extent” or even “intent” of the atonement.

Here is one:

1Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
​

It is in the title of the op: For God so loved the world (Earth as the temple of God)

 

[agedman]

Might add:
John 15:19, ". . . chosen you out of the world, . . ."
Christ died for the whole world (1 John 2:2). His elect are from out of the world.

I agree that the blood was shed for all sin of all creation.

However, I disagree that the death and resurrection were for the benefit of all, but specific to believers.

I take that view from passages such as: 1 Corinthians 15, Luke 20:36, Romans 6, ...

 

[agedman]

It is in the title of the op: For God so loved the world (Earth as the temple of God)

How very poor of me!

How did I miss that!

Perhaps so focused upon John 3?

Thank you for your help.

You are correct in pointing the title presents what the Scriptures don’t support.

 

[Iconoclast]

Might add:
John 15:19, ". . . chosen you out of the world, . . ."
Christ died for the whole world (1 John 2:2). His elect are from out of the world.

In the ot. The elect came primarily from the nation of Israel.
He came to His own, His own received Him not.
Now in the NT. The elect are primarily from the heathen gentile nations, that is the world. Salvation goes world wide now.

 

[37818]

I agree that the blood was shed for all sin of all creation.

However, I disagree that the death and resurrection were for the benefit of all, but specific to believers.

I take that view from passages such as: 1 Corinthians 15, Luke 20:36, Romans 6, ...

My understanding is the general redemption is first to secure salvation for His elect and secondarily making Him Judge of the perishing. Romans 8:34; Romans 14:9-11.

 

[Particular]

In the ot. The elect came primarily from the nation of Israel.
He came to His own, His own received Him not.
Now in the NT. The elect are primarily from the heathen gentile nations, that is the world. Salvation goes world wide now.

With all due respect, the elect have always been the children of the promise with no requirement to be of the national origin of Israel. God (the Promised One) came through the line of David, but God's elect have always been from every tribe and tongue.

 

[Iconoclast]

With all due respect, the elect have always been the children of the promise with no requirement to be of the national origin of Israel. God (the Promised One) came through the line of David, but God's elect have always been from every tribe and tongue.

Yes, but Deut7 and Amos3: indicate that nation was singled out,from among the other nations.
This in part was to be a type of the true Holy Nation, the New Covenant Church.
Not everyone in that nation was elected as true Israel.romans 9:6-11, not everyone in the world is elected now either.

 

[Calminian]

I offer for your consideration a sermon by Dr. Chad Causey that I found thought provoking ...

(start at 42:40 for the sermon, I can’t get the link to start anywhere but the beginning of the service)

For certain atonement is limited in its application and saving effect. Virtually all arminians will admit this. It's also is certain Christ died for all. Many Calvinists will admit this, but all should, considering the explicit verses that say so.

 

[MB]

It is God's will that everyone come to repentance.
Mat_9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Is there anyone I left out? neither is there anyone Christ left out. Those who do not repentance loose there chance to have Salvation.
MB

 

[agedman]

My understanding is the general redemption is first to secure salvation for His elect and secondarily making Him Judge of the perishing. Romans 8:34; Romans 14:9-11.

Neither verse is applied to those perishing but to those who are believers.

As far as those who are perishing look to the statements of John concerning if He judges.

5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, in whom you have put your hope

8:15 You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one.

12:48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.

Don't forget that John 3 presents that the non-believer is already condemned.

 

[agedman]

For certain atonement is limited in its application and saving effect. Virtually all arminians will admit this. It's also is certain Christ died for all. Many Calvinists will admit this, but all should, considering the explicit verses that say so.

It is God's will that everyone come to repentance.
Mat_9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Is there anyone I left out? neither is there anyone Christ left out. Those who do not repentance loose there chance to have Salvation.
MB

There is that agreement among all, but the full Pelagian, that the atonement is limited.

However, I would caution the presentation of Matthew 9:13 as to mean that God's will is that everyone comes to repentance. Some may think it is implied, but that it was not stated does not give freedom to extend implication to fact.

2 Peter 3:9 the words again do not present any obligation of emotion such as humankind may have in desire or not willing. For the will of God is accomplished and cannot be thwarted. Nor is God needy. He cannot be needy for then there would be a temptation, and God cannot be tempted.

So, how is it to be taken, these words from 2 Peter are in the context of the promise of the Lord's coming and why there is a delay.

1This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, 2that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, 3knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. 4They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished.7But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

8But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. 10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
​

One must then attend to who the audience is, what is the topic, and within those parameters that statement.

The most consistent manner would then make the statement that the Lord has delayed His return. That the return is delayed so that those not "kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly" are saved, for after that coming there will be no salvation.

The context of this passage does not and cannot be taken as some who would present a God that is needy and that such need is extended in some manner to all people the opportunity of salvation.

​

 

[atpollard]

For certain atonement is limited in its application and saving effect. Virtually all arminians will admit this. It's also is certain Christ died for all. Many Calvinists will admit this, but all should, considering the explicit verses that say so.

If Chad is correct, then Jesus was making a bigger point to Nicodemus and John was making a bigger point to us than whether atonement was limited or universal when John recorded the words in John 3:16 ... that was why I posted the link to the sermon.

 

[Particular]

Yes, but Deut7 and Amos3: indicate that nation was singled out,from among the other nations.
This in part was to be a type of the true Holy Nation, the New Covenant Church.
Not everyone in that nation was elected as true Israel.romans 9:6-11, not everyone in the world is elected now either.

The nation was singled out to be the lineage by which the promised one (Jesus) would come, not as the elect members of the Kingdom of God.
We run into problems when we try applying corporate election. We see groups like the RCC, the EOC and Lutherans trying to have their infants saved by corporate election through infant baptism. The results have been horrific positions that preach salvation by association rather than salvation by grace through faith.

 

[Particular]

If Chad is correct, then Jesus was making a bigger point to Nicodemus and John was making a bigger point to us than whether atonement was limited or universal when John recorded the words in John 3:16 ... that was why I posted the link to the sermon.

Please summarize the points the speaker is making.

 

[atpollard]

You are correct in pointing the title presents what the Scriptures don’t support.

IMHO, You are too quick to deny scriptural support:

• [Gen 1:31 NASB] 31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.
• [Gen 3:8 NASB] 8 They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
• [Exo 24:16 NASB] 16 The glory of the LORD rested on Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it for six days; and on the seventh day He called to Moses from the midst of the cloud.
  
• [Exo 29:45-46 NASB] 45 "I will dwell among the sons of Israel and will be their God. 46 "They shall know that I am the LORD their God who brought them out of the land of Egypt, that I might dwell among them; I am the LORD their God.
• [Exo 40:34-35 NASB] 34 Then the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle. 35 Moses was not able to enter the tent of meeting because the cloud had settled on it, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
• [Deu 12:10-11 NASB] 10 "When you cross the Jordan and live in the land which the LORD your God is giving you to inherit, and He gives you rest from all your enemies around [you] so that you live in security, 11 then it shall come about that the place in which the LORD your God will choose for His name to dwell, there you shall bring all that I command you: your burnt offerings and your sacrifices, your tithes and the contribution of your hand, and all your choice votive offerings which you will vow to the LORD.
• [1Ki 8:11 NASB] 11 so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud, for the glory of the LORD filled the house of the LORD.
• [2Ch 5:14 NASB] 14 so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud, for the glory of the LORD filled the house of God.
• [2Ch 7:1-2 NASB] 1 Now when Solomon had finished praying, fire came down from heaven and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices, and the glory of the LORD filled the house. 2 The priests could not enter into the house of the LORD because the glory of the LORD filled the LORD'S house.
• [Psa 68:16 NASB] 16 Why do you look with envy, O mountains with [many] peaks, At the mountain which God has desired for His abode? Surely the LORD will dwell [there] forever.
• [Psa 84:10 NASB] 10 For a day in Your courts is better than a thousand [outside.] I would rather stand at the threshold of the house of my God Than dwell in the tents of wickedness.
• [1Co 12:12-14 NASB] 12 For even as the body is one and [yet] has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many.
• [2Co 6:16 NASB] 16 Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
• [1Pe 2:9-10 NASB] 9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR [God's] OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.
  
• [Rev 21:3 NASB] 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

If you need it explained ... watch the sermon.
I will just say that God is not absent nor indifferent towards his creation according to scripture.

 

[atpollard]

Please summarize the points the speaker is making.

Some things do not lend themselves to sound bytes. A summary would not do it justice. The closest that I can offer is that it examines John 3 through the understanding of a First century Pharisee (like Nicodemus) and through the understanding of a modern man with a modern scientific understanding and draws conclusions deeper than "limited or universal". It ties into Genesis 1 and the Temple and messianic prophecy and Revelation and makes sense of all of them.

I found it worth the effort to listen to, and I am a 5 point Calvinist.

 

[agedman]

IMHO, You are too quick to deny scriptural support:

• [Gen 1:31 NASB] 31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.
• [Gen 3:8 NASB] 8 They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
• [Exo 24:16 NASB] 16 The glory of the LORD rested on Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it for six days; and on the seventh day He called to Moses from the midst of the cloud.
  
• [Exo 29:45-46 NASB] 45 "I will dwell among the sons of Israel and will be their God. 46 "They shall know that I am the LORD their God who brought them out of the land of Egypt, that I might dwell among them; I am the LORD their God.
• [Exo 40:34-35 NASB] 34 Then the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle. 35 Moses was not able to enter the tent of meeting because the cloud had settled on it, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
• [Deu 12:10-11 NASB] 10 "When you cross the Jordan and live in the land which the LORD your God is giving you to inherit, and He gives you rest from all your enemies around [you] so that you live in security, 11 then it shall come about that the place in which the LORD your God will choose for His name to dwell, there you shall bring all that I command you: your burnt offerings and your sacrifices, your tithes and the contribution of your hand, and all your choice votive offerings which you will vow to the LORD.
• [1Ki 8:11 NASB] 11 so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud, for the glory of the LORD filled the house of the LORD.
• [2Ch 5:14 NASB] 14 so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud, for the glory of the LORD filled the house of God.
• [2Ch 7:1-2 NASB] 1 Now when Solomon had finished praying, fire came down from heaven and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices, and the glory of the LORD filled the house. 2 The priests could not enter into the house of the LORD because the glory of the LORD filled the LORD'S house.
• [Psa 68:16 NASB] 16 Why do you look with envy, O mountains with [many] peaks, At the mountain which God has desired for His abode? Surely the LORD will dwell [there] forever.
• [Psa 84:10 NASB] 10 For a day in Your courts is better than a thousand [outside.] I would rather stand at the threshold of the house of my God Than dwell in the tents of wickedness.
• [1Co 12:12-14 NASB] 12 For even as the body is one and [yet] has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many.
• [2Co 6:16 NASB] 16 Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
• [1Pe 2:9-10 NASB] 9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR [God's] OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.
  
• [Rev 21:3 NASB] 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

If you need it explained ... watch the sermon.
I will just say that God is not absent nor indifferent towards his creation according to scripture.

Of course He is not absent or indifferent towards His creation.

I did watch about 3/4ths of the sermon.

How do these Scriptures conform to the OP presenting the earth is the tabernacle/temple?

I just don't see that dirt has much other than providing the materials used for the tabernacle/temple, and not that God considers the dirt as the structure for worship.

It seems a bit of perhaps Native American storytelling in which the earth is thanked or brother coyote is welcomed for the gifts given.

Not that the OP is presenting such, but when the dirt begins to become considered as a temple/tabernacle I just don't think there is Scripture support.