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The Significance of 144,000

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Protestant, Oct 31, 2019.

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  1. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    But, when Jesus was speaking literally to His disciples, He said the stars will fall, meaning meteors. "Falling" or "shooting" stars has been a term for meteors for millenia, persisting even after most people knew what they are.
     
    #121 robycop3, Dec 30, 2019
  2. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 11: The Two Witnesses - Part 15

    John Wickliffe’s Rebuke of the Mendicant Friars

    [N.B. The following excerpts are translated by this present writer and may be found here. As one of the innumerable witnesses for Christ to the truth, John Wickliffe’s sword was two-edged. He and his followers were committed to preaching Gospel truth, as well as exposing the unfruitful works of darkness and those who work them.]

    Cap. 2. Friars hinder the free preaching of the Gospel.

    “Also, the Friars plainly declare it apostasy and heresy for a priest [i.e. ‘unlicensed poor preacher’] to live as Christ had ordained, and that by the Gospel [1 Cor. 9:14]. For if a Friar knowledgeable in God’s Word should travel from country to country sowing God’s Word among the people without charging a fee, though he might have profited had he done so; or should refuse to beg, but instead accepts payment in food and drink as did Christ and His Apostles, he will be pursued as an apostate, drawn to prison and cursed for his evangelical works.

    “Moreover, the Friars are kept cloistered in [what are pejoratively called] Cain’s Castles when they should emulate Christ and John the Baptist who left the desert to dwell among the people to teach the Gospel for their spiritual nourishment. Furthermore, not only did they freely preach publicly, but their lives reflected high moral standards consisting of charity toward others and meekness, while living a modest lifestyle.

    “It is no other than the will of a simple idiot, who is a damned devil of Hell, to imprison a man for doing the revealed will of God, which they call ‘blasphemy.’”

    Cap. 6. Friars gather all their alms from the poor & needy to maintain their sinful & superfluous order.

    “Also, Friars teach it is necessary to reject the commandment of Christ, who taught alms should be given the weak and disabled, the blind and the bedridden. Instead, alms should be given to hypocrites who are supposedly holy and more needy, though they are strong in body, excessively rich, both in housing and clothing, jewels and treasures, as well as their being well satiated by frequent sumptuous feasting.

    “Thus, in essence, they literally kill the poor through their false begging, since they take away their worldly goods which are necessary for their bodily existence. They willfully deceive the rich who give them alms which they use to maintain their comfortable lifestyle in contradiction to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

    “Before the existence of the mendicant orders, there were poor in the world. But now, with the advent of the Friars, there are even more poor in the world.”

    Cap. 9. Their stealing of children & enticing them to their order.

    “Also, Friars draw children from Christ’s truth into their religious order by hypocrisy, lies, and kidnapping. By claiming their order to be holier, having a higher degree of heavenly bliss than any other Roman Catholic sect or office, they insist those in their order will never be condemned to Hell, as will those outside their sect.

    “By these pretenses they kidnap children from their parents, whether able-bodied or not, whether the parents are dependent on the children for support or not, though God commands such support if needed [Mark 7:9-13].

    “The Friars are blasphemers, commanding doubtful things which neither expressly commanded nor forbidden in Holy Writ, declaring their commands are Holy Ghost approved. Thus, the Friars are accursed of God, as were the Pharisees cursed of Christ who said, Woe be to you Scribes and Pharisees that are writers of Law, and men of a religious sect, that compass about the water and the lane to make a man of your religion, and when he is made of your religion ye make him double more a child of Hell. And since he that steals and ox or a cow is condemned by God’s law, as well as man’s law: much more is he that steals a man’s child who is greater than all earthly goods, bringing him to a less perfect order.”

    Cap. 12. Persecution of true Priests by false Friars.

    “Also, Friars pursue true Priests, forbidding them to preach the Gospel, notwithstanding Christ enjoined them to preach the Gospel……they pursue them for preaching, yea to the fire they will slay Priests for doing God’s will. Therefore they are manslayers, corrupt and cursed of God. For they forbid His people to be saved, and so desire their damnation. And since the principal point and end of Christ’s death and passion was to save man’s soul, the Friars are traitors to Christ, for they are angels of Satan transformed into angels of light, the cruel traitors of all men.”

    Cap. 14. Great flatterers of the people nether reproving nor removing their sins from among them.

    “Also, Friars do not expose the grievous sins of the people, as God bids. This is primarily true of those considered the mighty men of the world. Instead of rebuke, the Friars flatter these men, minimizing their evil ways, thereby sustaining their sin. And since it is the office of the Preacher to show men their foul sins, as well as the punishment due them – which the Friars do not – they are, therefore, the cause of damnation of the people. As such, they are wicked traitors to God and the people because in reality they are employed in the service of the Fiend of Hell.

    “For by flattering and teaching false commandments they allow men to continue in their lusts, comforting them therein. Sometimes they even persecute true preachers because they will not diminish the seriousness of sins of the mighty, nor will they comfort them in their sin, but will instead sharply rebuke them. As an antidote to such rebukes, mighty men frequently hire, at great cost, their own personal religious counselors who pretend to interpret, as orthodox, the Scriptures in a way favorable to these rich sinners, though, in fact, they are false Christians, traitors to Christ, who leads them to Hell.

    “A typical example of this is seen when Friars, though living under a vow of poverty, chastity and obedience, allow mighty men of the world to engage in covetousness and extortions, in addition to many other sins. As a consequence, men become hardened to such grievous sins. So, rather than flee their grotesque company, the Friars chose to remain their friends, lest they should lose their worldly favor and all the perks which come with such friendships. And thus, they sell men’s souls to Satan for money.

    Cap. 48. Friars are spiritual Sodomites.

    “[In addition to their numerous sins already elaborated], Friars, who are the venomous seed of the Serpent, engage in immorality greater than that of carnal sodomy, which God’s vengeance judged with death; for their sodomy extends to that of the spiritual realm. Using God’s Word as a pretense, they preach spiritual lechery when they preach their own unbiblical doctrines as a means to gain the filthy goods of the world, rather than preach Christ’s Gospel for the saving of men’s souls.

    “By neglecting to preach the seed of God’s Word they deprive men the means by which they must be spiritually regenerated to become sons of God. Thus, they commit a greater sin than that of carnal sodomy which spills the seed of man for purposes other than procreation. For the seed of the Word is infinitely greater than the seed of man. Consequently, to misuse and squander the heavenly seed is the greater sin.”

    NEXT: The scathing rebuke directed at Friars 125 years prior to Wickliffe.
     
    #122 Protestant, Dec 30, 2019
  3. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    If you read Isaiah 14:1-27, you will see
    1. It refers to the return of Israel to the Holy Land v1. This happened under Cyrus.
    2. It is a prophecy against the King of Babylon v4.
    3. Verse 11, see Daniel 5 for the fulfillment of this and Belshazzars feast.
    4. Note verse 25. The Assyrian. i.e. The Babylonian. Xenophon in his Cyropaedia, or histoty of Cyrus invariably refers to the Babylonians as Assyrians.
    5. The king of Babylon was defying God in his pagan feast using the Holy vesels from the temple. He would have known that God had said that Cyrus would set the Jews free, as such he was setting himself higher than God. He also knew that Cyrus, with his army, was outside the city, Cyrus, God's servant. That is why he became incontinent. Isaiah 45:1 Daniel 5:6 He was brought down from a great king defying God to a coward whose knees knocked together and he bacame incontinent. What a fall.
    6. Lucifer, the morning star was the king of Babylon. Falling from heaven means he fell from power, just as in Olivet, the Jewish leaders, the Sun, moon and Stars fell from power.
     
    #123 David Kent, Dec 30, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2019
  4. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    The sun is a star. The moon is a satellite. The stars are what the sun is, but are so far away that they are seen by us only as points of light. They existed long before the Jews did. And they never fell from the sky, nor will they. There'll be meteors, but that's it.
     
    #124 robycop3, Dec 31, 2019
  5. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    Meteors are not stars, and they have always fallen to earthn and always will so there is no sign in them. And as I said, stars in prophecy are always symbolic, sometimes of people and sometimes of events. Olvet is no exception.
     
    #125 David Kent, Dec 31, 2019
  6. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Concerning His return, Jesus was speaking in literal terms to His disciples. They didn't know what a meteor is, but they knew what a falling star is, so Jesus was using terminology they understood.
     
    #126 robycop3, Dec 31, 2019
  7. Oseas3

    Oseas3 Active Member

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    O please, my Friend, it is you who is speaking literally, not JESUS. What you are saying was not in the mind of JESUS, absolutely, by no manner of means. You, and who thinks like you, must study more deeply the matter.

    Again:     Matt.24:v.29 - Immediately after the tribulation of THOSE DAYS (a period of time) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the STARS shall fall from heaven (within that time's period),and the Powers of the heavens (what Powers? what heavens?) shall be shaken: ---> (shall be shaken ONLY the Powers of First and Second Heavens, like an "earthquake", because the third heaven - the Kingdom of God -, was not established yet - 1Cor.15:v.24-28).

    Be sure that the things that JESUS said personally unto His disciples in His first coming (Mat.24:v.29), decades after His ascention He said the same things again, He said unto His angel to show unto John in the isle of Patmos     (Rev.1:v.1), but this time with more detailed evidently. By the way, when John saw these things that were showed unto him and he did write in Revelation, certainly he remembered and understood better what JESUS had said in that occasion, as follow:

    THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED. HOW? WELL, JESUS EXPLAINS WITH DETAILS

    Revelation 9:1-4 & 11
    1 I saw a STAR FALL from heaven unto the earth: and to HIM (to the STAR) was given the key of the bottomless pit.

    2 And he (the STAR) opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the PIT(abyss), as the smoke of a great furnace; and the SUN and the AIR were darkened by reason of the smoke of the PIT.

    3 And there came out of the smoke LOCUSTS upon the earth: and unto them was given Power, as the scorpions of the earth have Power. (Yeah, the Power of them is terrible, very terrible).

    4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but ONLY THOSE MEN which HAVE NOT the seal of God in their foreheads- (Those which HAVE THE SEAL in their foreheads are 144.000 only     (Rev.7:v.1-8), and apart from these all the others will be hurted).

    11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

    Therefore, JESUS revealed and showed unto John and unto us too how the sun will be darkned as is written in the verses above.

    THE MOON SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT. HOW WILL BE IT?

    By the Spirit of Christ, it is easy to understand. Once the sun will be darkened because the ANGEL OF THE ABYSS opened the bottomless pit, and there arose a smoke out of the pit as the smoke of a great furnace as was commented above, consequently the moon will not give her light whithout the light of sun.

    The moon has no light of its own, as the the person of the Holy Spirit has no light of himself, Jesus revealed this in     John 16:v.12-15. But there is here a mystery, an enigma, that must be deciphered. Chech it out.

    That picture means that once the angel of the bottomless pit, the Beast that will arise up out of the earth in the days ahead, he will manifest himself like a lamb, a false lamb     (Rev.13:v.11), he is the esoteric, and spiritist, and kabbalistic false messiah, who will sit in the holy place, in Jerusalem, in the temple of God, then will be established the Abomination of Desolation, for the mystery of iniquity does already work: only HE who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

    Then will that Wicked be revealed, even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved    .(2Thes.2) - they believed not in JESUS -

    But wait, there is here a mystery, an enigma, that must be deciphered.     Scriptures are not talking about the natural satellite of planet earth, evidently, THE ANGEL OF THE ABYSS has nothing to do with the satellite of the earth, the moon, of course. In other words, Scripture is actually referring to the Light of JESUS - the SUN - the Greater Light - which from two thousand years ago shines upon the earth and His Church, but with the advent of the false messiah in the days ahead, in fact an esoteric, and spiritist, and kabbalistic messiah, the Abomination of Desolation, then will be fulfilled what prophesied Daniel 9: v.27:

    27 And he - THE FALSE MESSIAH, the angel of abyss - , shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the MIDST of the WEEK he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease     (by 1,290 days. CHECK IT OUT IN DANIEL 12:v.11 - A.D.), and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even UNTIL THE CONSUMMATION, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolater.

    AND THE STARS SHALL FALL FROM HEAVEN
    About this subject or detail I already wrote in my post #120

    Happy New Year
     
    #127 Oseas3, Dec 31, 2019
  8. Oseas3

    Oseas3 Active Member

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    If I read? I quoted part of Isaiah 14 that was interesting for my post

    Your thinking is from a human perspective, as well as Satan thinks(Matt.16:v.23), your thinking is not from God’s perspective.
     
    #128 Oseas3, Dec 31, 2019
  9. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    No, I am reading it literally and not adding to the scripture
     
    #129 David Kent, Dec 31, 2019
  10. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki Well-Known Member
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    Being a linguist and having studied synecdoche, I seriously question your assertion that the 144,000 is one. You build your whole argument on this shaky premise.

    It is rare if not downright non existent to use a smaller number to represent a larger group. Can you think of a single other example of this in Hebrew, Greek or English usage?
     
    #130 Jordan Kurecki, Dec 31, 2019
  11. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki Well-Known Member
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    Being a linguist and having studied synecdoche, I seriously question your assertion that the 144,000 is one. You build your whole argument on this shaky premise.

    It is rare if not downright non existent to use a smaller number to represent a larger group. Can you think of a single other example of this in Hebrew, Greek or English usage?
     
    #131 Jordan Kurecki, Dec 31, 2019
  12. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    Psalm 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

    This is but one of numerous examples where the singular is used to represent the many.....'man' = mankind consisting of male and female.
     
    #132 Protestant, Dec 31, 2019
  13. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki Well-Known Member
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    That is a real stretch my friend. Yes there are times where the word man is used to denote a generic person. But thats a far stretch from using some random number to represent a large group.

    Since we speak English lets talk about English. When in English would you ever use some number higher than 1 to represent a whole group of something? Its very very common for one item to represent a larger number of items but I would daresay we would never use some number like 7 or 10 or whatever of something to represent a whole group.

    what your doing is saying that a synecdoche is being used in a way that its not usually used.

    I could think of other examples of things such as saying “he will spend his life behind bars” Bars being one specific part of prison that represent the whole prison. all you did was show how the word man is used to a denote the whole of mankind being male and female.

    You have not given and I doubt you can give any example in English, Greek, Or Hebrew literature where a writer uses some random number like say 3 or 30 to represent some larger group. You seem to be proposing some kind of synecdoche that is foreign to any other kind of literature.

    In my opinion you are claiming a synecdoche when really thats a far stretch. You would have more justification to claim hyperbole than synecdoche. But I don't believe the text is either of those. I believe its literal.
     
    #133 Jordan Kurecki, Jan 1, 2020
  14. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    Yes the seven stars in Revelation are seven churches which represent the entire church.
     
    #134 David Kent, Jan 1, 2020
  15. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    They knew full well what a meteor was. Josephus tells us that the Egyptians were taught Astronomy and Mathematics by Abraham, which is quite likely as we are told that Mathematics was invented i UR. Herodotus tells us that the Greeks were taught Mathematics, Astronomy and the names of the gods by the Egyptians,

    The holy stone of the Muslims in Mecca was a stone which fell out of the sky. Their legend is that is the stone which Jacob used as a pillow. So they knew what a meteor was.

    The Stone of Scone is probably the same. Or why would the Kings of Scotland be crowned on it and when it was stolen by the English, the Kings of England were crowned on it and still are as it is incorporated in the Corronation Throne. There was a big fuss a few years ago when some Scottish students stole it and it was missing for some time. The Scots still campaign to have it back.

    Britist Israelites, or at least the branch known as The Revival Fellowship, say that this stone was used io crown kings of Judah, and was taken to Ireland with one of the princesses of Judah, by Jeremiah. It was used as the stone to crown Irish Kings, then captured by the Scots and taken to Scotland till captured by the English. Why such a significance to a stone if it was not something like a meteor. The RF say that the Kings if England, Scots Kings were descended from the Irish kings who were descended from the Jewish princess. (I have a former foster son who was, or is a member of the RF and gave me a booklet of theirs a few years ago.)
     
    #135 David Kent, Jan 1, 2020
  16. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Most people in the time/place while Jesus was here did NOT know what meteors are. They didn't associate rocks from the sky with the "shooting stars" visible nightly. Very few saw a meteor hit the ground. The Ephesians didn't associate the space rock they said had been sent by Diana with meteors.

    Again, Jesus was using terminology His disciples understood.
     
    #136 robycop3, Jan 1, 2020
  17. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    How do you know what THEY knew. They were probably better educated than you.
    Meteors are not stars and never will be. They are a fairly common event so that is no sign of anything.

    They knew that they were rocks from the sky, not stars. Meteor is a fairly recent word for rocks from the sky.
     
    #137 David Kent, Jan 1, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2020
  18. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    The 1290 days were fulfilled during the Jewish-Roman war when the period between the sacrifice abomination of desolattion being set up (The Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem) was exactly 1290 days as recorded by Josephus. There were 45 days from then till the temple was set on fire. 1335 days in all as recorded by the historian
     
    #138 David Kent, Jan 1, 2020
  19. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    David Kent has offered an excellent example of synecdoche: The 7 Churches = the positives, negatives and promises attributed to all churches from John’s day until the return of Christ.

    Some further examples whereby a part of the whole (one person) represents the whole:

    “Say to the daughter of Zion, ‘Behold, your king is coming to you, humble, and mounted on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a beast of burden’” (Matthew 21:5).

    Daughter of Zion = inhabitants of Jerusalem.

    and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob (Romans 11:26).

    Jacob = all saved Israelites.

    This next example is also that which consists of a part representing the whole:

    For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous (Romans 5:19).

    By Adam’s disobedience many were made sinners = By Adam’s disobedience all were made sinners (cf. Romans 3:23).

    Many (a part of the whole) = all (the entire whole of mankind).

    Also, in this thread I have taken the position the Two Witnesses of Rev. 11 are a synecdoche for all those Christians through the ages who have been given the spiritual gifts necessary for the arduous and often life-threatening task to witness Christ in an antichrist world. Their prophetic office also demands they expose the identity of the Antichrist and his body. Currently, I am posting historical testimony to that effect.

    …..which reminds me...….the body (singular) of Christ = innumerable Christians.
     
    #139 Protestant, Jan 1, 2020
  20. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    Let’s follow Robocop’s logic using inductive reasoning.

    Premise: “Most people in the time/place while Jesus was here did NOT know what meteors are.”

    The premise assumes ‘most people’ of that time were ignorant of events occurring in the heavens, including meteor showers.

    If that be the case, why did the Lord God anathematize astrology practiced by Israel in the Old Testament?

    Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon thee.

    14 Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it (Isaiah 47:13-14).

    Conclusion: Proverbs 26:4
     
    #140 Protestant, Jan 1, 2020
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