Who Holds To Covenant theology here?

[Reformed]

But it is not dependent on Dispensationalism. It is dependent on a different ages.

Reverse it. Dispensationalism is dependent on pre-wrath eschatology.

 

[JonC]

Reverse it. Dispensationalism is dependent on pre-wrath eschatology.

Could be. But then pre-wrath eschatology is independent of Dispensationalism (which is kinda my point). The parent does not owe his existence on the child, but the child owes his existence to the parent.


I am historic pre-mil, BTW. But it is not a hill I'd die on.

 

[Reformed]

Could be. But then pre-wrath eschatology is independent of Dispensationalism (which is kinda my point). The parent does not owe his existence on the child, but the child owes his existence to the parent.

That may be your point but you are going to be hard-pressed to find a pre-wrath eschatology outside of Dispensationalism. My textbook copy of Dispensationalism Today is buried in a box in my garage but if I remember Ryrie correctly, he said that both the separation of Israel and the Church and a pre-wrath rapture are the hinges on which Dispensationalism turns.

Now I have to go and break open old boxes to go find that book. Thanks a lot, Jon! LOL

 

[Reformed]

This has been a very good discussion but I am going to bow out now.

 

[JonC]

That may be your point but you are going to be hard-pressed to find a pre-wrath eschatology outside of Dispensationalism. My textbook copy of Dispensationalism Today is buried in a box in my garage but if I remember Ryrie correctly, he said that both the separation of Israel and the Church and a pre-wrath rapture are the hinges on which Dispensationalism turns.

Now I have to go and break open old boxes to go find that book. Thanks a lot, Jon! LOL

I guess I am having trouble understanding your point with Despensationalism and pre-wrath eschatology.

On one hand I understand you to be saying that Dispensationalism depends on pre-wrath eschatology (if there was no pre-wrath eschatology then Dispensationalism would never had been developed).

But on another hand I understand you to be saying pre-wrath eschatology is Dispensationalism (without Dispensationalism there would be no pre-wrath eschatology).

I am having trouble reconciling the two ideas (I am probably misunderstanding you on at least one point, perhaps both).


Personally I do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. Most people who explain their reasoning to me (most are family) hold the view because they do not believe the Church will be objects of wrath. I also do not believe the Church will be objects of wrath - but when the Church is persecuted they are not objects of God's wrath either. We suffer for God's glory, but are not children of wrath. So I have not really seen a reason to hold to pre-tribulation rapture except a couple of verses which are not enough for me to form a hard doctrine.

 

[xlsdraw]

I believe that the Great Tribulation is grossly misunderstood. Why would one that believes God already need to go through the Great Tribulation? We have believed without seeing and have acknowledged His chastening as to our benefit. The Great Tribulation is full of seen evidences of God's Sovereign power and chastening, designed to prod along the Thomas types into faith. Have we not seen that some children just trust and obey with little chastening needed, while other children require seemingly perpetual chastening to develop that child like faith? Do we give up on the difficult child? We must remember that God's love is long-suffering, a characteristic not natural to man and difficult for us to comprehend. Have any of us really ever forgave seventy times seven, except it were our own child?

 

[Reformed]

On one hand I understand you to be saying that Dispensationalism depends on pre-wrath eschatology (if there was no pre-wrath eschatology then Dispensationalism would never had been developed).

But on another hand I understand you to be saying pre-wrath eschatology is Dispensationalism (without Dispensationalism there would be no pre-wrath eschatology).

You make it hard to "bow out" when asking questions. LOL

Let me try and make sense.

Dispensationalism does depend on a pre-wrath eschatology. If there is no pre-wrath eschatology, Dispensationalism crumbles. So, rhetorically, is can be said (for example) that a pre-tribulational or even a mid-tribulational eschatological view is Dispensationalism. It is like saying that a pre-wrath view is so essential to the Dispensational system that it is Dispensationalism's real identity.

For the sake of clarity, let me offer a non-theological comparison. I am a New York Giant fan. Back during the Bill Parcels era, the greatest player the Giants had was #56, Lawrence Taylor. Arguably, "L.T." is the greatest linebacker who ever played the game. Historically, the Giants have always been known for their defense. As the greatest defensive player the Giants ever had, some New York sportswriters actually said he was the Giants. What they meant was that he embodied everything it meant to be a Giant. It was a rhetorical instrument used for effect. A pre-wrath eschatology is so critical to Dispensationalism that it is impossible to think of it in other than a dispensational context. Id est, a pre-wrath eschatology embodies Dispensationalism (it is Dispensationalism)!

OK. Now I am really bowing out.

 

[JonC]

You make it hard to "bow out" when asking questions. LOL

Let me try and make sense.

Dispensationalism does depend on a pre-wrath eschatology. If there is no pre-wrath eschatology, Dispensationalism crumbles. So, rhetorically, is can be said (for example) that a pre-tribulational or even a mid-tribulational eschatological view is Dispensationalism. It is like saying that a pre-wrath view is so essential to the Dispensational system that it is Dispensationalism's real identity.

For the sake of clarity, let me offer a non-theological comparison. I am a New York Giant fan. Back during the Bill Parcels era, the greatest player the Giants had was #56, Lawrence Taylor. Arguably, "L.T." is the greatest linebacker who ever played the game. Historically, the Giants have always been known for their defense. As the greatest defensive player the Giants ever had, some New York sportswriters actually said he was the Giants. What they meant was that he embodied everything it meant to be a Giant. It was a rhetorical instrument used for effect. A pre-wrath eschatology is so critical to Dispensationalism that it is impossible to think of it in other than a dispensational context. Id est, a pre-wrath eschatology embodies Dispensationalism (it is Dispensationalism)!

OK. Now I am really bowing out.

Thank you for bowing back in to answer my questions.

I understand what you are saying now. It is like Calvinism and individual election. Calvinism depends on individual election but is not derived from that idea.

I do not know that Dispensationalism depends on pre-wrath eschatology. To be fair, it would take someone who holds to Dispensationalism to explain it to me before I would agree.

I do appreciate you explanations, however. Holding neither position it is easy for me to understand why God gifted me with two ears, two eyes, and one mouth.

 

[37818]

Baptist Covenant Theology compared to Dispensationalism

@davidtaylorjr , please look at this vide starting at 8:41. It addresses Baptist Covenant Theology and paedobaptism.

". . . And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: . . . And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. . . ." -- Revelation 21:12-14. The Bride of Christ is made up of both Israel and His church.

 

[Yeshua1]

I know it sounds problematic, especially to Dispensationalists. However, it does not teach a works-based salvation. That is what Dispensationalists jump on without evening knowing what the Covenant of Works is.

The Covenant of Works is a term used to describe God's covenant with man, pre-fall.

Back when Adam actually had the means to keep the Law of God. as had not yet fallen into sinful state.

 

[Yeshua1]

O Palmer Robertson has a great book on Covenants although its Presb and must be read through a lens

Most of the really Good reformed theology is worthwhile, at least until it gets into Infant Baptism!

 

[Yeshua1]

David, there are some basic beliefs that most Dispensationalists agree on. Most see a separation between Israel and the Church. Most hold to a pre-wrath view of eschatology and a literal 1000 year millennial kingdom before the final judgment. In between all of that are various levels of Dispensationalism. You have the classic form of Dispensationalism promulgated by Scofield and Chafer. There is the radical Dispensationalist view of John Hagee. There is Progressive Dispensationalism than emanated out of Dallas Theological Seminary. So, Dispensationalists have their own intramural fights which are interesting to watch.

So are the ones in our camp between NCT, how to really keep the Lord's day, and mode of baptism, and which Confession is best!

 

[Yeshua1]

They actually have names for this.

Progressive Dispensationalism (if you lean more dispensational) and Progressive Covenantalism (if you lean more CT).

I believe you have to be somewhere in the middle of Dispy and CT in order to actually be biblical and I have stated that for a long time.

CT for proper Sotierology, and lean Dispy for Eschatology?

 

[Yeshua1]

A major problem I have with CT is that it is adding covenants that are there by inference and not actually listed in Scripture itself. I am fully aware that the same argument can be made for facets of dispensationalism depending on the point you fall in the dispensational spectrum.

I think the real tension are between the extremes of both sides, as in those who see nothing else for national Israel period, and those who see jews still under the OC to save them!

 

[Yeshua1]

This has been a very good discussion but I am going to bow out now.

when you say pre wrath, do you mean pre trib rapture?

 

[Reformed1689]

CT for proper Sotierology, and lean Dispy for Eschatology?

It goes deeper than that. Dispensationalism, at its core, recognizes that God interacts with humanity differently in different times. He does not interact with humanity the same way he did with Adam, nor the same way he did at the time of the Prophets, or the same way he did while Christ was on earth. Everyone recognizes that, hopefully.

 

[Marooncat79]

It goes deeper than that. Dispensationalism, at its core, recognizes that God interacts with humanity differently in different times. He does not interact with humanity the same way he did with Adam, nor the same way he did at the time of the Prophets, or the same way he did while Christ was on earth. Everyone recognizes that, hopefully.

David. Its called Civenants Theology!! The covenants continue to reveal God. Lol

 

[Yeshua1]

It goes deeper than that. Dispensationalism, at its core, recognizes that God interacts with humanity differently in different times. He does not interact with humanity the same way he did with Adam, nor the same way he did at the time of the Prophets, or the same way he did while Christ was on earth. Everyone recognizes that, hopefully.

Some say Covenants, others call them dispensations!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

For those who want to understand the differences between Baptist C.T, and Paedobaptist C.T., there is an excellent book, The Distinctiveness of Baptist Covenant Theology by Pascal Denault (SGCB, ISBN 978-1-59925-325-1).
The very earliest Particular Baptists believed in Covenant Theology, and the very first book, by a P.B., A Treatise concerning the Lawfull Subjects of Baptisme by John Spilsbury (1646), is basically covenantal.