Predestination unto salvation

[JonC]

Thank you.

Having agreement on whether the 66 books of the Bible ("scripture") is the final authority for all matters of faith and practice is the prerequisite for fruitful discussions on all matters of doctrine and theology. Sometimes it is necessary, like on a message board, to fly our colors up the mast occasionally for others to see. Message boards gain new members and lurkers all the time and they may not know what we truly believe.

But you are right, scripture does not answer all our questions. Apple or Android? Thai or Chinese food? Bitcoin or precious metals for investments? Mets or Yankees? I know I am being a bit humourous but even in those things, we may find direction in scripture.

Android. Apple is the forbidden fruit.

 

[Reformed]

But I do not believe Scripture answers all of the questions we come up with.

Just to be clear, do you think scripture answers all theological and doctrinal questions we come up with? If not, in what areas may it not?

 

[1689Dave]

I added the "unto salvation" for those who think the distinction is important.

Do you believe that men are predestined? Do you believe that those who are saved are predestined to be saved and those who are lost are predestined to be lost?

Why or why not?

I think every person born has much to do with their offspring being who they are. That is, if any of your ancestors had been different, you would not exist. And if any single egg or sperm cell had been different you would not exist. So all that led to those unions was under God's control for you to exist and him writing your name in the book of life before the foundation of the world. Double predestination is necessary for this to happen.

 

[37818]

God's foreknowing His elect precedes predestination. Romans 8:29, ". . . For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate . . . ." 1 Peter 1:2, ". . . according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, . . ."

Now it is definitive that the lost do not have their name in the book of life, Revelation 20:15, ". . . whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. . . ."

And the promise to those who are the Sons of God (Revelation 21:7) are that their names will never be blotted out of the book, Revelation 3:5, ". . . and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, . . ."

Now it is a matter of interpration as to when and why one's name is in that book. That is the divide.

 

[37818]

For my part, I do believe everything is predestined but for more philosophical reasons.

From the stand point of God being absolutely omniscient and we are not, being that we are finite beings.

Now it is the Son who has knowingly limited His omniscience in some things. An example: Mark 13:32; Acts of the Apostles 1:7. And the Son prior to His incarnation being both "with God" and "was God" (John 1:1-2) could do this. Knowing it was the Son as God who said to Abraham, "now I know," Genesis 22:12; John 1:18; John 14:6.

 

[Van]

I see once again the same bogus views are being regurgitated in this thread. Here are the actual biblical views:

1) The words translated foreknew and foreknowledge refer to information acquired or formulated in the past being utilized in the present, and does not refer to knowing what will happen in the future.

2) Adoption is predestined for everyone placed in Christ, because "adoption" refers to our bodily redemption, Romans 8:33, and thus the redemption is only predestined when a person is placed into Christ.

3) Everyone placed into Christ is then predestined to be conformed to image of Christ.

4) Names are entered in the Lamb's book of life when the person is made alive together with Christ.

5) When God chose His Lamb and Redeemer before the foundation of the world, they therefore chose corporately everyone His Redeemer would redeem, thus He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. That this election was corporate is necessitated by 1 Peter 2:9-10 where we were not a people before we became God's people. If we had been chosen individually, then we would never have been "not a people."

 

[George Antonios]

I added the "unto salvation" for those who think the distinction is important.

Do you believe that men are predestined? Do you believe that those who are saved are predestined to be saved and those who are lost are predestined to be lost?

Why or why not?

We went through all this in this forum not long ago:
Prove it wrong: There is not one verse about predestination to salvation

There is not one verse in the scriptures that speaks of a lost man being predestinated unto salvation.
All the verses that mention predestination are about a saved man getting predestinated, according to the foreknowledge of God, unto standing before God in love and holiness and obtaining a glorified resurrection body in the image of Christ's resurrection body:

 

[kyredneck]

Is it the elect (as a whole) or individuals?

29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Ro 8

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.
18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?
21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

For my part, I do believe everything is predestined but for more philosophical reasons.

But through strictly scriptural lens 'predestine' is found only four times in the scriptures and is always in reference to God choosing a people for His own possession, not to events.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Ro 8

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Eph 1

 

[George Antonios]

But through strictly scriptural lens 'predestine' is found only four times in the scriptures and is always in reference to God choosing a people for His own possession

No, All the verses that mention predestination are about a saved man getting predestinated, according to the foreknowledge of God, unto standing before God in love and holiness and obtaining a glorified resurrection body in the image of Christ's resurrection body:

 

[kyredneck]

All the verses that mention predestination are about a saved man getting predestinated, according to the foreknowledge of God

You've a whacked backward skewed take on this. I 'foreknow' what's coming up in my garden every year because I planted it.

 

[Van]

God's redemption plan was formulated before the foundation of the world, because the Father chose the Son to be His Lamb before the foundation of the world. And when you choose a Redeemer, you also choose corporately anyone that the Redeemer redeems. Thus He chose us in Him...

When you see "foreknew or foreknowledge" consider the meaning as known (planned, purposed) beforehand. Thus Christ was crucified according to the predetermined plan God purposed beforehand. Acts 2:23

 

[George Antonios]

You've a whacked backward skewed take on this. I 'foreknow' what's coming up in my garden every year because I planted it.

And you foreknow that your kid, looking back-ward while running, is going to hit that wall, because, why? You set him up to hit the wall?! I trow not.

By the way, you also foreknow what's coming up when you know what someone else has planted!

Foreknowledge is not predestination.

Also, brother, your reply had nothing to do with the verses and cross-references posted. Let's not make the scriptures say something they haven't said.

 

[MB]

You've a whacked backward skewed take on this. I 'foreknow' what's coming up in my garden every year because I planted it.

Not necessarily sometimes you plant that which you are unaware of. WEEDS Lol
MB

 

[kyredneck]

Prove it wrong: There is not one verse about predestination to salvation

'Predestination to be conformed to the image of his Son' is indeed 'predestination to salvation' in every sense of the word. 'Conformed to the image of his Son' jibes with 'the imputed righteousness of Christ' and 'when I see the blood I will pass over'.

 

[kyredneck]

Not necessarily sometimes you plant that which you are unaware of. WEEDS Lol
MB

God is fully aware of His planting:

24 Another parable set he before them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man that sowed good seed in his field:
25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares also among the wheat, and went away.
37 And he answered and said, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; Mt 13

13 But he answered and said, Every plant which my heavenly Father planted not, shall be rooted up. Mt 15

 

[George Antonios]

'Predestination to be conformed to the image of his Son' is indeed 'predestination to salvation' in every sense of the word. 'Conformed to the image of his Son' jibes with 'the imputed righteousness of Christ' and 'when I see the blood I will pass over'.

We can't just say "it jives". We must prove our definition with cross-references that define the terms, as in the example below:

 

[Yeshua1]

I added the "unto salvation" for those who think the distinction is important.

Do you believe that men are predestined? Do you believe that those who are saved are predestined to be saved and those who are lost are predestined to be lost?

Why or why not?

I see Romans 8 teaching that Prdestination as in the determined and direct action of God would be towards His elect in Christ, while He has determined the end result of those who reject Christ to save them from their sins!

 

[kyredneck]

We can't just say "it jives".

No doubt it doesn't 'jibe' with one as biased as you but it 'jibes' with me, I'm always looking for the underlying continuity within scripture, and toting that man-magnifying chart around everywhere you go proves/accomplishes nothing. Seen dozens of such charts.

 

[George Antonios]

No doubt it doesn't 'jibe' with one as biased as you but it 'jibes' with me, I'm always looking for the underlying continuity within scripture, and toting that man-magnifying chart around everywhere you go proves/accomplishes nothing. Seen dozens of such charts.

It would have been helpful to address the issue with verses that define the predestination Paul talks about, not insults. You're not the first to avoid the verses and resort to insulting me instead. But God bless you brother.

 

[Yeshua1]

We went through all this in this forum not long ago:
Prove it wrong: There is not one verse about predestination to salvation

There is not one verse in the scriptures that speaks of a lost man being predestinated unto salvation.
All the verses that mention predestination are about a saved man getting predestinated, according to the foreknowledge of God, unto standing before God in love and holiness and obtaining a glorified resurrection body in the image of Christ's resurrection body:

View attachment 3523

Single Predestination, for the elect in Christ only!