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Featured Ex-Calvinism (Why I am no longer a Calvinist)

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by JonC, Jan 24, 2020.

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  1. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Divine Justice. Do you mean... God cannot let sin go unpunished, it would violate His nature of perfect righteousness?
     
    #21 canadyjd, Jan 25, 2020
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  2. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    I think the thrust is behind Christ's shed blood. As much as his heart could provide until death. And his suffering was instrumental in that.
     
    #22 1689Dave, Jan 25, 2020
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I mean that reconciliation has to be accomplished by the exercise of punishment for sin.

    When we look at judicial philosophy there are competing positions. Some believe that a crime has to be punished to satisfy justice. Others believe punishment can be dismissed if the criminal has changed.

    For example, one way of looking at is that Saul was guilty of committing crimes against the Church. Paul was a new creature in Christ, in whom there is no condemnation. The "charge" applies to the "old man", not the "new man". Paul must die to the "old man".

    That is only one example to hopefully at least show that there are other philosophies of justice. I think that we have to be able to defend any we choose to use.
     
    #23 JonC, Jan 25, 2020
  4. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    What made me change is reading a commentary by a Bible believer who defined the terms with cross-references. It was the Bible's own commentary, not an externally molded theological cast into which verses were forced. He showed me how Calvinists interpret simple Bible statements and passages on salvation in the light of hard passages rather than operating the other way around.

    Then, it was understanding that the base reason I became a Calvinist is that I was made to think that acknowledging free-will would lead to pride. The oft heard argument is that then "I had something to do with my salvation". So of course I wanted to be humble, so I said yeah ok. Then the concomitant argument is free-will faith amounts to work, which when I studied the Bible, was simply not true, as far the word of God goes (who cares what men who think they're more humble than even God's own standard of humility think).

    And then what cemented things, is the many Calvinists on this forum, who literally believed and stated that they are elected (I didn't say "saved" but "elected") outside of Jesus Christ. That is still shocking to me but many here think nought of it.

    Here's another ex-Calvinist:

     
    #24 George Antonios, Jan 25, 2020
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  5. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    I usually don't click on videos (who has an hour and a half for this stuff), but sampled the one above. Apparently Calvinists have been taken captive by the Devil and his will. Helpfully, though, the teacher is willing to explain the difference between Christianity and Calvinism.

    It's almost enough to make me forgive cage-stage Calvinists.

    But not quite. They're as obnoxious as he is.
     
    #25 rsr, Jan 25, 2020
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  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God;s must punish the transgressors of His Law, for they have a sin debt obligation to God....
     
    #26 Yeshua1, Jan 25, 2020
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  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Before God can affect the change in any sinner, their own sin debt must be atoned and paid for!
     
    #27 Yeshua1, Jan 25, 2020
  8. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    taken captive at the devil's will (2Ti.2:26) doesn't automatically mean that the person is lost. A preacher can be caught in the snare of the devil yet still be a Christian, according to Paul (1Ti.3:7). The man in the video did not mean to imply that Calvinists are lost; if that's what you understood (not sure).
     
    #28 George Antonios, Jan 25, 2020
  9. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Well, that's SO much better. Besides, I did not assume, assert or intimate that "taken captive" meant anything of the sort. I guess you would have no problem if I asserted that preachers who reject Augustinian soteriology are caught in the snare of the devil or I maintained that premillennial dispensationalists are caught in the snare of the devil.
     
    #29 rsr, Jan 25, 2020
  10. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't sure what you meant, so was just trying to clarify.
    And yes, that is SO much better. There's a huge difference between considering a man a heretic yet a brother, and considering a man to be lost and on his way to hell.
     
    #30 George Antonios, Jan 25, 2020
  11. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Not really. Someone else's opinion of my eternal destiny is, in fact, of no concern to me. The only opinion that counts is God's, and I do not presume to speak for Him, either in my case nor in the case of anyone else.

    Same for heresy. My bar for heresy is pretty high and don't consider the Arminian-Calvinist disagreement to hurdle that bar.
     
    #31 rsr, Jan 25, 2020
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I consider everyone except me to be heretics. The good news is I am selling heresy offsets. Interested?
     
    #32 JonC, Jan 25, 2020
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  13. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Interesting. Tetzel's first name was John. Any relation?
     
    #33 rsr, Jan 25, 2020
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  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    How about WoF, so called Charismatic chaos?
     
    #34 Yeshua1, Jan 25, 2020
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Probably. We have a long line (John the Baptist, John the apostle, Jonathan Edward's, John Knox, John Calvin, John Wesley.... Jon Snow,....).
     
    #35 JonC, Jan 25, 2020
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  16. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Kevin Thompson is a complete waste of time. He can't exegete anyting his caricatures all lame and he's got nothing to say
     
    #36 Iconoclast, Jan 25, 2020
  17. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    A fresh pontifical statement! Well I guess that settles it!
     
    #37 George Antonios, Jan 25, 2020
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  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    This is the problem with the "anti" folk. They wage war against Christians, sometimes never understanding the opposing view.

    We saw this in Dr. Flowers Soteriology 101 video as he argued against Calvinism by addressing ideas that are not a part of Calvinism.

    At the same time you have "stage caged" Calvinists who cannot grasp someone could understand yet still reject their position.

    There is no shortage of fools on either side.


    BTW, did you know John means "God is gracious" or "God's gracious gift"? @rsr, I am God's blessing to you! :Biggrin
     
    #38 JonC, Jan 25, 2020
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    LOL.... I am afraid you are going to have to get used to those types of replies or start ignoring a group. This and the politics section is the worst.
     
    #39 JonC, Jan 25, 2020
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  20. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    Regardless of his post-Calvinist position, his observations regarding "epistemic vulnerabilities" and what he calls "presuppositionally white-listing virus definitions" are useful and not all limited to a particular school of thought, as he himself points out.

    http://beyondthefundamentals.com/Document_Files/Why_You_Became A_Calvinist_rfs.pdf
     
    #40 RighteousnessTemperance&, Jan 25, 2020
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