Just how does the wrath of god be appeased if no penal Substitution?

[Yeshua1]

What would be the means by which God can propiate His wrath if by other methods?

 

[Reformed]

What would be the means by which God can propiate His wrath if by other methods?

Biblically, I am not sure there is another way. The wrath of God is satisfied by Christ's sacrificial death on the cross. While I do not subscribe to the Christus Victor view of the Atonement, this theory claims that Christ's death made satisfaction for sin but it also adds that Christ had to redeem humanity and creation from the devil. I do not believe the latter view can be found in scripture.

 

[Revmitchell]

What would be the means by which God can propiate His wrath if by other methods?

"God" needs to have a capital "G"

 

[Reynolds]

What would be the means by which God can propiate His wrath if by other methods?

You would need to back up and establish why He is required to show wrath in the first place.

 

[Yeshua1]

You would need to back up and establish why He is required to show wrath in the first place.

Substitute His Godly anger towards sin if you find that term more to your liking!

 

[Yeshua1]

"God" needs to have a capital "G"

Agreed never caught that until you mentioned it!

 

[Yeshua1]

Biblically, I am not sure there is another way. The wrath of God is satisfied by Christ's sacrificial death on the cross. While I do not subscribe to the Christus Victor view of the Atonement, this theory claims that Christ's death made satisfaction for sin but it also adds that Christ had to redeem humanity and creation from the devil. I do not believe the latter view can be found in scripture.

The other prominent view would be that expressed by NT Wright on atonement, and just do not see how we can understand Pauline Justification apart from seeing it in the framework of Isaiah 53, where the Servant of Yahweh is surely being out to death for the sins and in the place of those sinners!

 

[atpollard]

What would be the means by which God can propitiate His wrath if by other methods?

By what means is our wrath (anger) propitiated?

True story:
My brother was walking the two blocks (1/2 mile) from a shopping center to his house, when a Methodist Minister suffered an attack of low blood sugar. The man in the car made a U-turn across the median of a divided highway, drove down the grass shoulder at 45 mph bouncing over the curbed driveways as he crossed them, and struck my brother from behind. Richard was ripped out of his shoes, bounced along the car crushing the hood, windshield and roof, before being flung like a rag-doll and landing thirty feet away in the street. He died gasping in the road, unable to breathe or speak as blood poured from his mouth, nose and ears.

[An aside: Under the OT Law,as the oldest male of my family the responsibility as the Blood Avenger would have fallen to me.]

At Richard's funeral, my younger (Richard's older) brother asked me if I wanted revenge. Here is what I responded to that question as I buried the baby brother that I had shared birthdays with all of his life (we were born two days apart and I have not celebrated a birthday since his death).

"If killing Reverend [blank] would bring Richard back, I would crush the life out of his body with my bare hands; but it won't. I want Richard alive, not him dead. There is nothing that I want from him."

Does it bother anyone else that I can forgive a murder without needing someone to die, and God can't?
[I do not believe that it is about paying for sin so God can forgive in the way that we describe a Judge paying the fine himself. It must be something far deeper than "fair"; something touching the innate character of God.]

 

[Yeshua1]

By what means is our wrath (anger) propitiated?

True story:
My brother was walking the two blocks (1/2 mile) from a shopping center to his house, when a Methodist Minister suffered an attack of low blood sugar. The man in the car made a U-turn across the median of a divided highway, drove down the grass shoulder at 45 mph bouncing over the curbed driveways as he crossed them, and struck my brother from behind. Richard was ripped out of his shoes, bounced along the car crushing the hood, windshield and roof, before being flung like a rag-doll and landing thirty feet away in the street. He died gasping in the road, unable to breathe or speak as blood poured from his mouth, nose and ears.

[An aside: Under the OT Law,as the oldest male of my family the responsibility as the Blood Avenger would have fallen to me.]

At Richard's funeral, my younger (Richard's older) brother asked me if I wanted revenge. Here is what I responded to that question as I buried the baby brother that I had shared birthdays with all of his life (we were born two days apart and I have not celebrated a birthday since his death).

"If killing Reverend [blank] would bring Richard back, I would crush the life out of his body with my bare hands; but it won't. I want Richard alive, not him dead. There is nothing that I want from him."

Does it bother anyone else that I can forgive a murder without needing someone to die, and God can't?
[I do not believe that it is about paying for sin so God can forgive in the way that we describe a Judge paying the fine himself. It must be something far deeper than "fair"; something touching the innate character of God.]

The correct analogy would be that the guilty person went before the court, and was sentenced to life in prison, but you requested to serve out his sentence in his place.
And sorry to hear about your brother.....

 

[Steven Yeadon]

There is a classic view of the atonement as Christ our Paschal Lamb. Jesus Christ is an efficacious sin offering that in fact takes away sin preconfigured in the sacrificial cultus of the tabernacle and temple. Jesus Christ is also the paschal lamb of Passover that guards those marked with His blood. Christ is also the sacrifice of a new covenant as at Mount Horeb when the old covenat was made by sacrifice and blood sprinkling the people. This view is easily backed up with Hebrews.

Unlike say the idea a ransom was paid to the devil, an ancient idea popularized by Chrysostom.

 

[Reynolds]

Substitute His Godly anger towards sin if you find that term more to your liking!

I agree with you. This is a spin off of another thread, and you need to scripturally prove it, whatever you want to call it.

 

[Reformed]

The other prominent view would be that expressed by NT Wright on atonement, and just do not see how we can understand Pauline Justification apart from seeing it in the framework of Isaiah 53, where the Servant of Yahweh is surely being out to death for the sins and in the place of those sinners!

I have looked at N.T. Wright's view of the Atonement and it is confusing. Wright has other problems, most notably his stand on Pauline justification, so I see him as more of an outlier on his atonement view.

The question you asked in your OP is how is God's wrath satisfied if there is no penal substitution? The short answer is penal substitution provides the clearest and most accurate biblical response to the Atonement. Christ paid the sin-debt for the Elect as a substitutionary sacrifice. Christus Victor and the Ranson Theory attempt to answer your question but I believe they fall short.

 

[JonC]

What would be the means by which God can propiate His wrath if by other methods?

The only way to appease wrath is to address what this wrath is against. There have been many suggestions throughout Christian history (honor, value/ merit, justice, etc.). I think what you are looking at is how divine justice is satisfied (if not then please let me know).

How is justice satisfied? In my view are two ways. Either the criminal is removed from the community or the criminal is reformed so that he or she is no longer a criminal. I think that this is also biblical. Either one will be condemned for sin or one will repent and turn to God.

What you have suggested on another thread (which you left to come here without answering on that thread) was neither. You suggested that injury creates in God a deficit that must be satisfied in order for justice to be accomplished. I think that this philosophy is defective both in society and as attributed to divine justice.

 

[atpollard]

The correct analogy would be that the guilty person went before the court, and was sentenced to life in prison, but you requested to serve out his sentence in his place.
And sorry to hear about your brother.....

Thank you for your sympathy. God in His infinite wisdom decided to forge a sword.

You still have not explained why the Judge cannot simply release the prisoner without sending anyone to prison.

 

[JonC]

The correct analogy would be that the guilty person went before the court, and was sentenced to life in prison, but you requested to serve out his sentence in his place.
And sorry to hear about your brother.....

That is a poor analogy. It deals only with a sentence and not the nature. Was the crime stealing food? Was it an injury? A financial debt? An insult?

The reason it matters is it depends on the type of justice involved.

If you owe $100, are judged to pay today but do not have the money then I can pay for you (the debt is paid and justice satisfied).

But if you killed my father and are released because another has volunteered to serve the sentence then justice is not served and the judge is evil (has committed an abomnition to God).

If the crime was disobeying the judge, the judge does not suffer loss or harm, and I repent and obey then my crime can justly be forgiven based on reform without penalty.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

By what means is our wrath (anger) propitiated?

True story:
My brother was walking the two blocks (1/2 mile) from a shopping center to his house, when a Methodist Minister suffered an attack of low blood sugar. The man in the car made a U-turn across the median of a divided highway, drove down the grass shoulder at 45 mph bouncing over the curbed driveways as he crossed them, and struck my brother from behind. Richard was ripped out of his shoes, bounced along the car crushing the hood, windshield and roof, before being flung like a rag-doll and landing thirty feet away in the street. He died gasping in the road, unable to breathe or speak as blood poured from his mouth, nose and ears.

[An aside: Under the OT Law,as the oldest male of my family the responsibility as the Blood Avenger would have fallen to me.]

At Richard's funeral, my younger (Richard's older) brother asked me if I wanted revenge. Here is what I responded to that question as I buried the baby brother that I had shared birthdays with all of his life (we were born two days apart and I have not celebrated a birthday since his death).

"If killing Reverend [blank] would bring Richard back, I would crush the life out of his body with my bare hands; but it won't. I want Richard alive, not him dead. There is nothing that I want from him."

Does it bother anyone else that I can forgive a murder without needing someone to die, and God can't?
[I do not believe that it is about paying for sin so God can forgive in the way that we describe a Judge paying the fine himself. It must be something far deeper than "fair"; something touching the innate character of God.]

I am so sorry to hear about your brother. Your family has my well wishes and sympathy.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Answering, "What is Sin?" Sounds like a good place to start. In Eden it was to disobey God's command, making you into a competing will. In the language of governance, a rebel. Scripture seems to indicate it goes deeper than that. It is not just my present state that matters in the light of God's holiness. My past state matters too or else the Cross would not be needed. Beyond this I do not understand. We are talking about the nature of God after all.

 

[Yeshua1]

I have looked at N.T. Wright's view of the Atonement and it is confusing. Wright has other problems, most notably his stand on Pauline justification, so I see him as more of an outlier on his atonement view.

The question you asked in your OP is how is God's wrath satisfied if there is no penal substitution? The short answer is penal substitution provides the clearest and most accurate biblical response to the Atonement. Christ paid the sin-debt for the Elect as a substitutionary sacrifice. Christus Victor and the Ranson Theory attempt to answer your question but I believe they fall short.

Those 2 other theories on the atonement to me do not actually provide in them the means by which God can be appeased for divine wrath. That is why I think many seem to want the Wrath of God changed to being not really that anymore!

 

[Yeshua1]

The only way to appease wrath is to address what this wrath is against. There have been many suggestions throughout Christian history (honor, value/ merit, justice, etc.). I think what you are looking at is how divine justice is satisfied (if not then please let me know).

How is justice satisfied? In my view are two ways. Either the criminal is removed from the community or the criminal is reformed so that he or she is no longer a criminal. I think that this is also biblical. Either one will be condemned for sin or one will repent and turn to God.

What you have suggested on another thread (which you left to come here without answering on that thread) was neither. You suggested that injury creates in God a deficit that must be satisfied in order for justice to be accomplished. I think that this philosophy is defective both in society and as attributed to divine justice.

what you are suggesting here seems to be that God can excuse and pardon me for a crime, and that I can have a change of heart, and yet how would that be real justice if did not have to pay or serve any penalty? Without the sin debt being obligated and paid for, not even God can just freely forgive us!

 

[Yeshua1]

Thank you for your sympathy. God in His infinite wisdom decided to forge a sword.

You still have not explained why the Judge cannot simply release the prisoner without sending anyone to prison.

Judgment was made and rendered, was found guilty, someone has to serve the sentence!