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Featured Just how does the wrath of god be appeased if no penal Substitution?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Yeshua1, Jan 29, 2020.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Except that the penalty due for committing sin will be death, both physically and then spiritually, so God cannot just excuse that offense against Him away, someone MUST pay that debt!
     
    #21 Yeshua1, Jan 30, 2020
  2. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    Why does sin need a courtroom drama only? Why is Jesus Christ not a high priest and sin offering, a Pascal lamb of Passover, and a sacrifice for a new covenant as seems indicated by Hebrews? Why does the shedding of blood purify and take away sin?
     
    #22 Steven Yeadon, Jan 30, 2020
  3. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    You are quite emphatic. :)

    ... but Why?

    No one died in punishment for Richard's death.
    Why does someone HAVE to serve the sentience?

    To press our analogy, a Judge can sentence a guilty man to prison and the Governor can pardon him. Criminals are granted amnesty for a variety of reasons.

    So what would happen if NO person served the sentence? :Barefoot
     
    #23 atpollard, Jan 30, 2020
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin!
     
    #24 Yeshua1, Jan 30, 2020
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    For there to be a judgment that would be legal and binding someone has to serve it, and God was able to freely pardon us due to the truth that Jesus agreed to pay the penalty rendered against sin.
     
    #25 Yeshua1, Jan 30, 2020
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The wages of sin are death. Did Jesus pay that penalty so we would not? Of course not (that is the conversation you fled on the other thread). Per your theory Jesus suffered separation from God do we would not (even though we start out that way). You render His actual blood as worthless.
     
    #26 JonC, Jan 30, 2020
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes. But Why? That is what you cannot answer. The worth of the Atonement in your view is the punishment inflicted by the Father - NOT the sacrifice of the Son.
     
    #27 JonC, Jan 30, 2020
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Two things happened on that Cross, as He who knew no sin became sin for us, and bore in Himself the wrath and judgment of God against those sins, and he also actually died by shedding His blood. Its all part of the atonement process...
     
    #28 Yeshua1, Jan 30, 2020
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The soul that sins must die, and there is only remission for sins in the blood, and in order to have that sacrifice acceptable to God the Father, the person must be sinless and must bear in Himself the wrath and judgment against our sins!
    When Jesus screamed out about God forsaking Him, it was to Him at that moment was a real and present reality. and that was what he dread in the Garden the most, having to endure that Cup of wrath!
     
    #29 Yeshua1, Jan 30, 2020
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I am not asking what you think happened. I am asking why you think what you think happened. We all know Christ she'd His blood for us, He suffered and died. The difference is you see this as a side movement of no consequence (in your view what matters is the Father punished the Son with our punishment instead of punishing us).
     
    #30 JonC, Jan 30, 2020
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus had to shed his blood ad die on that cross, as if he would have die from a heart attack, or getting roled over by a chariot would not have worked!
     
    #31 Yeshua1, Jan 30, 2020
  12. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    We agree, but why does bloodshed please God in sacrifice all the way back to Abel?
     
    #32 Steven Yeadon, Jan 30, 2020
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Life is in the blood....
     
    #33 Yeshua1, Jan 30, 2020
  14. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    Why does God require a loss of life? Why does life purify golden objects in the tabernacle and temple? I'm just saying there is more than meets the eye.
     
    #34 Steven Yeadon, Jan 30, 2020
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    all we can with certainty say is that the soul that sins must die, and life is in the blood, and without the shedding of blood no remission for sins!
     
    #35 Yeshua1, Jan 30, 2020
  16. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    I agree. I'm just saying the thoughts and wisdom of God are above us. That penal substitution is one understanding with others covered by scripture.
     
    #36 Steven Yeadon, Jan 30, 2020
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Why not? If what really matters, what really settled our debt and reconciled us to God was not Christ's incarnation, life, and death but our punishment being inflicted by God to satisfy the demands of divine justice?

    You have provided absolutely no reason that Christ had do die or that His blood had to be shed in a redemptive sense. You have given us verses about what happened, about what was required insofar as blood being shed, but absolutely no redemptive quality for the shedding of His blood.

    What is more important - Christ's submission or the Father punishing Him instead of us? What is the main focus of Scripture, the main focus of Jesus and Paul?
     
    #37 JonC, Jan 30, 2020
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  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Christ's substitutionary sacrifice on the cross provides the propitiation or means of salvation from the wrath of God when an individual undergoes the circumcision of Christ and the washing of regeneration. Thus only when an individual's faith is credited as righteousness by God and then God places them in Christ are they inside the propitiatory shelter of Christ, where the circumcision of Christ and the washing of regeneration occurs. Not in Christ, not justified, forgiven, or saved. In Christ, justified, forgiven and saved. This is really basis.
     
    #38 Van, Jan 30, 2020
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The focus is upon the fact that the triune God had the Cross of the Messiah already in place for the plan of salvation, and you have yet to demonstrate just how God can freely forgive our sins if there was no penal Substitution!
     
    #39 Yeshua1, Jan 31, 2020
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    You fail to see that the reason WHY His death and shed blood DID achieve the salvation of god towards us was due to Him satisfying in full the wrath and judgment against sins for our sake! That was done first, in order to have his death by the shedding of his blood acceptable to the Father!
     
    #40 Yeshua1, Jan 31, 2020
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