1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Calvinism and Arminianism are Each Partially Right

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Steven Yeadon, Jan 31, 2020.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2017
    Messages:
    2,391
    Likes Received:
    315
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I would love to hear more of this wisdom you accumulated about the underpinnings of the theological positions on soteriology.
     
  2. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2019
    Messages:
    2,895
    Likes Received:
    298
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Oh please.
     
  3. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2019
    Messages:
    2,895
    Likes Received:
    298
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Actually, to his credit, he admitted it was.
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    34,633
    Likes Received:
    3,698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You're the only one, but that's why I like you Steven. :)

    I attended the same seminary as a few members here, so I think that they set through the same lectures and probably hold the same views at least on the nature of these things.

    When I was just a young pup (not too young and not too much a pup) I took an undergraduate class on theology. The professor was Elmer Towns (one of the co-founders of Liberty University). At the start he defined theology (and the different areas under theology).

    Biblical theology as a branch of theology (all theology should be biblical, but speaking of a branch of theology) deals with the text of Scripture in a limited view (not the whole of Scripture).

    Systematic theology is built on Biblical Theology (it is found first and foremost on Scripture) but looks at Scripture as a whole and implements extra-biblical means to develop doctrines. Systematic Theology uses reasoning, philosophy and makes use of things like historic theology, and historical/ scientific developments. Systematic theology is where doctrines are developed and address the questions that are being asked.

    Take the Doctrine of the Trinity, for example. What was being asked (actually challenged) was assumptions and biblical ideas that had not been presented as a complete doctrine previously. People had to wrestle not only with Scripture but also philosophical ideas concerning terms like "persons" and "nature". They had to reason out Scripture and come up with a working doctrine to express how they determined Scripture to teach (in an overall sense) about the Trinity.

    Calvinism is like this. Calvinism looks to the same Scripture that non-Calvinists look to. But in addition to Scripture there are questions that have to be asked in regard to Calvinism as a theology. What is sin, exactly? What type of justice is divine justice? Can sin be transferred? What effect does sin have on human nature? What is human nature? And the list goes on.

    There is an inherit flaw in theology - that is the human condition. We cannot comprehend the mind of God except insofar as God has revealed Himself to us. This does not mean that Calvinism is wrong. It does not mean that Arminianism is wrong. What we have to do is look at the process, the philosophy, the reasoning and compare this to Scripture. And we will each make different determinations.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    34,633
    Likes Received:
    3,698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    But I did not mean it that way.. Perhaps the inferiority of your reasoning missed the preeminence of my intellect. It was not smugness because of my humility. In fact, if I have any attribute that surpasses the character of those on this board it is humility. I am proud of my humility and anti-smugness. You don't have to apologize. I know you mean it way deep down, even if you don't know it yet, and that's all that matters. :D

    (I really did not mean the comment as smugness, I meant sometimes it does no good to argue).
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  6. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2017
    Messages:
    2,391
    Likes Received:
    315
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I see. My big difference is that I treat all historical sources as suggestive, including ecumenical councils, but my arguments must be founded in scripture. Long study of the bible is the first and last, but not only, tool of the theologian. So far I agree with the councils, but if I differed even slightly, I know I need an avalanche of scripture to defend my view. I'll even go so far as to say I checked the doctrine of the trinity a few years ago, and felt it was supported by a conclusive avalanche of scripture.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2017
    Messages:
    2,391
    Likes Received:
    315
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Thank you for ther explanation.

    I'll add that I think historical sources can be treated as non apostolic Gospel by those in a tradition of Christianity founded by a famous teacher. To my knowledge that is almost all of them. This reminds me of rabbanical Judaism's Mishnah. We should never reference theologians with authority but reference how their works make sense of scripture.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2019
    Messages:
    9,903
    Likes Received:
    1,820
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Oh please what? That is essentially the logic of your argument. Or, that God let's man exert power over Him.
     
  9. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2019
    Messages:
    2,895
    Likes Received:
    298
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Funny. And it was smug. And we all know it. Moving on.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    34,633
    Likes Received:
    3,698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It really was not smug on my part, but I do understand how it could be taken that way. I had one thought in mind but it seems you (probably others) saw something I did not intend in my words. Such is the problem of communication (especially this type).

    Given your assumption I suspect you are King James Version only (or at least prefer that version).

    Sometimes the beliefs we hold forces us to assume things about other people that is not true. I think that is what happened here. My example (KJVO) was ultimately a poor choice but it was chosen because I was unaware it was a view held on this thread.

    I was being kind (trying to be anyway) by my initial dismissal of the charge of smugness. That's all. I did not think the accusation an error worth addressing (I am not that important). As it has continued I thought it best to clear the air. You misjudged my intent based on your own views and expectations.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    George Antonios,

    You say that, Calvinists do not.

    No, you say that, Scripture says no such thing anywhere. You post it like it is mentioned somewhere in scripture, it is not.

    That is not what Calvinism says...you say it.

    No, you said that not God.

    No Calvinist says that. What is this a strawman fest?
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2014
    Messages:
    13,836
    Likes Received:
    2,478
    Faith:
    Baptist
    They are both right on total depravity. Past that, one is right and the other wrong.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    1,492
    Likes Received:
    18
    Arminianism rationale for evil makes more sense than Calvinism. Evil exists because of free will. God made us with a level of autonomy and from this we choose evil. God allowing us autonomy is not God willing us evil anymore than sinners perishing is God willing part of his creation to perish
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2019
    Messages:
    9,903
    Likes Received:
    1,820
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Here's the problem with that. God still had to create the possibility didn't He? If he did not will evil to exist why would you create the possibility?
     
  15. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    52,030
    Likes Received:
    3,657
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Nope, its your misguided caricature of his argument.
     
  16. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2014
    Messages:
    13,836
    Likes Received:
    2,478
    Faith:
    Baptist
    As Arminians, we call that "possibility" Free Will.
     
  17. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2019
    Messages:
    9,903
    Likes Received:
    1,820
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I understand what you call it but it is a cop out.
     
  18. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2019
    Messages:
    9,903
    Likes Received:
    1,820
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No, the misguided caricatures was what he was doing to Calvinists.
     
  19. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2014
    Messages:
    13,836
    Likes Received:
    2,478
    Faith:
    Baptist
    How so?
     
  20. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    52,030
    Likes Received:
    3,657
    Faith:
    Baptist
    He might be. However, that does not absolve you.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...