Catechisms

[Adonia]

The first catechism is purely synergism.



Rome, puts the emphasis on human works with God as the sidekick.

Where do we ever see an adoptee being invited to accept the parent(s) who are the adopter? Yet, here Rome makes humans the choosers, which is entirely contradictory to what Ephesians 1 and Romans 8 teach.

Adonia...this is the first catechism...only 2800 plus to go...

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

How you can get what you have gotten by that quote from the catechism is beyond me. There is nothing there that even remotely resembles what you have claimed. We have the "free will" to choose or reject God, that is what the particular passage you quoted is in essence saying.

"For this reason, at every time and in every place, God draws close to man".

God tries to draw close to man all the time - it is man who rejects Him.

"He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with all his strength".

Do you reject this truth?

"He calls together all men, scattered and divided by sin, into the unity of his family, the Church".

Again, do you also reject this?

"So that this call should resound throughout the world, Christ sent forth the apostles he had chosen, commissioning them to proclaim the gospel: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."4 Strengthened by this mission, the apostles "went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it."

Words straight from the Holy Scriptures - where's the problem?

"Those who with God's help have welcomed Christ's call and freely responded to it are urged on by love of Christ to proclaim the Good News everywhere in the world. This treasure, received from the apostles, has been faithfully guarded by their successors. All Christ's faithful are called to hand it on from generation to generation, by professing the faith, by living it in fraternal sharing, and by celebrating it in liturgy and prayer."

You are troubled by those words above somehow? Please enlighten me.

 

[Adonia]

Rome, puts the emphasis on human works with God as the sidekick.

Only in your estimation and I therefore reject your contention wholeheartedly.

 

[Adonia]

I am sure there is truth mixed in with false teaching. Satan, after all, quotes scripture...

The same can easily be said about the Baptist faith tradition.

 

[Particular]

How you can get what you have gotten by that quote from the catechism is beyond me. There is nothing there that even remotely resembles what you have claimed. We have the "free will" to choose or reject God, that is what the particular passage you quoted is in essence saying.

"For this reason, at every time and in every place, God draws close to man".

God tries to draw close to man all the time - it is man who rejects Him.

"He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with all his strength".

Do you reject this truth?

"He calls together all men, scattered and divided by sin, into the unity of his family, the Church".

Again, do you also reject this?

"So that this call should resound throughout the world, Christ sent forth the apostles he had chosen, commissioning them to proclaim the gospel: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."4 Strengthened by this mission, the apostles "went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it."

Words straight from the Holy Scriptures - where's the problem?

"Those who with God's help have welcomed Christ's call and freely responded to it are urged on by love of Christ to proclaim the Good News everywhere in the world. This treasure, received from the apostles, has been faithfully guarded by their successors. All Christ's faithful are called to hand it on from generation to generation, by professing the faith, by living it in fraternal sharing, and by celebrating it in liturgy and prayer."

You are troubled by those words above somehow? Please enlighten me.

Free will is never taught regarding salvation. We do not have the capacity to choose God. God must choose us. This is clear in scripture.

God doesn't call all men. If He did, all men would come and would be redeemed.

What is correct is that God chose his Apostles and commissioned them.

Here we see the false mixed with truth so as to muddy things.

 

[Adonia]

Free will is never taught regarding salvation. We do not have the capacity to choose God. God must choose us. This is clear in scripture.

God doesn't call all men. If He did, all men would come and would be redeemed.

What is correct is that God chose his Apostles and commissioned them.

Here we see the false mixed with truth so as to muddy things.

You are simply wrong. At the crucifixion one man on one side of Jesus chose God and salvation while the other man on the other side of Jesus did not. God wants all men to be saved, to come to Him, yet obviously here on Calvary one man through the "free will" that all men have been given by God chose not to.

You are being taught a false doctrine.

 

[Particular]

You are simply wrong. At the crucifixion one man on one side of Jesus chose God and salvation while the other man on the other side of Jesus did not. God wants all men to be saved, to come to Him, yet obviously here on Calvary one man through the "free will" that all men have been given by God chose not to.

You are being taught a false doctrine.

The thief never chose God. Jesus chose the thief. Look at what is said.

Luke 23:40-43

But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Jesus holds the power as King. Jesus decides who enters the Kingdom. Jesus chooses. It is right there in the passage.

Your version declares that the thief chose God and therefore had reason to boast that his own choice got him into the kingdom. But, that is not expressed at all in the passage. In fact, the thief knew he was justly condemned. It is purely by God graciously choosing the thief that the thief is redeemed. (By the way...no water baptism required.)

If God had wanted all...every person at the crucifixion and every human in the world would be redeemed. God's will cannot be thwarted.

You proclaim God as weak and man as strong. It is what Rome has taught for centuries and it is a false teaching. Synergism oozes from the pores of Rome.

 

[Adonia]

The thief never chose God. Jesus chose the thief. Look at what is said.

Yes, let us look at the passage. The thief says: "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom". So before Jesus says anything, it is the thief who speaks.....and chooses. The other man stays silent and does not choose Jesus (as is his right under the concept of the free will that God has given every human being).

Jesus holds the power as King. Jesus decides who enters the Kingdom. Jesus chooses. It is right there in the passage.

Yes, Jesus holds all the power - I totally agree. It is his words that grants the thief a place in heaven, no baptism is required of this one individual. As for the rest of us, the Scriptures remain clear about the requirement of baptism.

You proclaim God as weak and man as strong.

I do not. God has all the power - he can do whatever he wants. Man is nothing compared to his greatness. I really do not know where you get such an assessment. We are not the one's who follow the doctrines of a sect started by one man (John Smyth), who was nothing but a renegade of the original renegades.

 

[Particular]

Yes, let us look at the passage. The thief says: "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom". So before Jesus says anything, it is the thief who speaks.....and chooses. The other man stays silent and does not choose Jesus (as is his right under the concept of the free will that God has given every human being).



Yes, Jesus holds all the power - I totally agree. It is his words that grants the thief a place in heaven, no baptism is required of this one individual. As for the rest of us, the Scriptures remain clear about the requirement of baptism.



I do not. God has all the power - he can do whatever he wants. Man is nothing compared to his greatness. I really do not know where you get such an assessment. We are not the one's who follow the doctrines of a sect started by one man (John Smyth), who was nothing but a renegade of the original renegades.

The thief doesn't choose. The thief makes a request that the King remember him. The King is under no compulsion to grant him the request, but the King, showing amazing grace, chooses to allow the thief into the Kingdom.
In no way, shape, or form does the thief choose God.
Before this moment, we see that the thief had been observing and seeing how Jesus responded to his persecutors.

Luke 23:32-43 Two others, who were criminals, were led away to be put to death with him. And when they came to the place that is called The Skull, there they crucified him, and the criminals, one on his right and one on his left. And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” And they cast lots to divide his garments. And the people stood by, watching, but the rulers scoffed at him, saying, “He saved others; let him save himself, if he is the Christ of God, his Chosen One!” The soldiers also mocked him, coming up and offering him sour wine and saying, “If you are the King of the Jews, save yourself!” There was also an inscription over him, “This is the King of the Jews.” One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.”

And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

As for baptism it is never required for salvation. None of the Apostles were baptized other than Paul. However, baptism is an ordinance of obedience where we make our declaration of citizenship in the Kingdom. It is entirely separate from salvation.

If you declare baptism as a necessary work for salvation then you declare grace empty and void.

I anticipate you will attempt to use
Acts 2:37-38 as an argument. Let's look at it.

Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

When you read this verse in the Greek language you see that Peter emphasizes repentance for the forgiveness of sins. The verse can be rendered, Repent, everyone of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and be baptized and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
The key to forgiveness is repentance, not baptism.

In conclusion:
Salvation is not a synergist activity where you cause God to act and graciously save you because you chose him and chose to be baptized. Such a belief places all the glory on the human who rationally and smartly chose the correct God.

Instead, salvation is a monergist activity where God caused you to be made alive and gave you faith so that you would repent and therefore obey His ordinance of baptism. It is all God doing the work in causing you to respond to His adoptive work on your behalf. You get zero credit. No reason to boast.

Sadly, synergism runs rampant. People demanding that they have control and God react to their decisions. In this area, the Reformation failed. Humans and churches lift up themselves and have a small view of God. The Roman Catholic Church is preeminent in synergism and small God thinking.

 

[Adonia]

The thief doesn't choose. The thief makes a request that the King remember him.

A request is choosing. The fact is, had he not chosen he would have stayed silent and it is unbelievable that you can come to the point at which you have arrived on this. You take what can be the only common sense conclusion of this event and throw it out the window.

 

[Particular]

A request is choosing. The fact is, had he not chosen he would have stayed silent and it is unbelievable that you can come to the point at which you have arrived on this. You take what can be the only common sense conclusion of this event and throw it out the window.

A request is not choosing. It is an acknowledgement that one cannot do anything. The person does not have the capacity to choose. The person only has the capacity to ask.
The fact is God moved his heart and caused the thief to ask. Somehow, between the thief's trial and his sentencing on the cross, the thief was drawn by God to acknowledge he was a sinner in need of reconciliation. It went against his nature to repent. His nature was to rebel against God. But...God...made him alive with Christ...for by grace He was saved... (Ephesians 2)

I take what is the biblical conclusion. You create a conclusion through philosophical rationalism.

 

[Yeshua1]

A request is choosing. The fact is, had he not chosen he would have stayed silent and it is unbelievable that you can come to the point at which you have arrived on this. You take what can be the only common sense conclusion of this event and throw it out the window.

Why did he believe though, and not other thief?

 

[Adonia]

Why did he believe though, and not other thief?

How do I know why he believed. Maybe he wanted to repent of his evil ways and here was the Master right next to him with a once in a lifetime opportunity. What did he have to lose?

The question I have is why do you believe and your next door neighbor does not?

 

[Particular]

How do I know why he believed. Maybe he wanted to repent of his evil ways and here was the Master right next to him with a once in a lifetime opportunity. What did he have to lose?

The question I have is why do you believe and your next door neighbor does not?

Matthew tells us.

Matthew 3:11-12 He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

The repentant thief is the wheat Jesus gathers. The unrepentant thief is the chaff Jesus burns with unquenchable fire.

The entire Bible declares God's choice of whom he wills to redeem. The repentant thief repented because Jesus chose him and the unrepentant thief did not repent because Jesus did not choose him.

 

[Yeshua1]

How do I know why he believed. Maybe he wanted to repent of his evil ways and here was the Master right next to him with a once in a lifetime opportunity. What did he have to lose?

The question I have is why do you believe and your next door neighbor does not?

God enabled me to believe unto Jesus to be saved!

 

[Adonia]

The repentant thief repented because Jesus chose him and the unrepentant thief did not repent because Jesus did not choose him.

Where do you get such stuff? Why would God choose one and not the other of His creations? The Scriptures say He desires all to come to Him, that none should not perish. He exists, He made the sacrifice - it is up to each of us as individuals to accept Him and follow Him through our own free will.

 

[Yeshua1]

Where do you get such stuff? Why would God choose one and not the other of His creations? The Scriptures say He desires all to come to Him, that none should not perish. He exists, He made the sacrifice - it is up to each of us as individuals to accept Him and follow Him through our own free will.

Either God wanted some to get saved, who are, or else all shall be saved in the end!

 

[Particular]

Where do you get such stuff? Why would God choose one and not the other of His creations? The Scriptures say He desires all to come to Him, that none should not perish. He exists, He made the sacrifice - it is up to each of us as individuals to accept Him and follow Him through our own free will.

Do you ignore scripture I share?

We see that God gives sinners to Jesus that will repent.

John 6:36-39 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

Jesus specifically tells us the decision process, which we see take place in the repentant thief.

John 10:25-28 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Adonia, it seems that you refuse to read these words of Jesus and accept them. Why?
If what Jesus says is true...that makes your church a liar. Who is more important to you, Jesus or your church?

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you ignore scripture I share?

We see that God gives sinners to Jesus that will repent.

John 6:36-39 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

Jesus specifically tells us the decision process, which we see take place in the repentant thief.

John 10:25-28 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Adonia, it seems that you refuse to read these words of Jesus and accept them. Why?
If what Jesus says is true...that makes your church a liar. Who is more important to you, Jesus or your church?

To many Roman Catholics, Jesus and the Mother Church same thing!

 

[Walpole]

To many Roman Catholics, Jesus and the Mother Church same thing!

No just many Roman Catholics, but to ALL Catholics, the Church is the body of Christ. (cf. Eph 5:23, Col 1:24)

The Church therefore is an extension of the incarnation. It is the body of Christ, continuing in time and thus it is a divine institution. The reason this is so shocking to Protestants is because no Protestant sect claims to be a divine institution. Hence, they are nothing more than religious Elks Clubs.

 

[Yeshua1]

No just many Roman Catholics, but to ALL Catholics, the Church is the body of Christ. (cf. Eph 5:23, Col 1:24)

The Church therefore is an extension of the incarnation. It is the body of Christ, continuing in time and thus it is a divine institution. The reason this is so shocking to Protestants is because no Protestant sect claims to be a divine institution. Hence, they are nothing more than religious Elks Clubs.

the true church of Jesus Christ is NOT Rome, nor Baptist, but of all of the redeemed saved since Adam forward!