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Featured Spiritual Death

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Feb 5, 2020.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    the second death id eternal spiritual death, as even they will live physical state forever!
     
    #41 Yeshua1, Feb 11, 2020
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That is interesting. Scripture does use the word "world" but perhaps it is speaking of mankind (Scripture gives another reason for Creation).

    Anyway, I can only go off what the Bible says. Spiritual life is of the "imperishable seed". Whatever Adam had before the Fall it was not imperishable. I suspect Scripture is correct about Adam being natural and the spiritual coming afterwards.
     
    #42 JonC, Feb 11, 2020
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    adam was in a right relationship with God, and then he was not, and we all save Jesus have been born with sin natures due to fall, correct? if we have sin natures, how are we not spiritual dead until reborn from above then?
     
    #43 Yeshua1, Feb 11, 2020
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    paul stated to us that all of creation itself groans and awaits for us to become glorified, as then the curse upon it shall be undone, how is that not sin and death?
     
    #44 Yeshua1, Feb 11, 2020
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Keep reading (you have the passage but are not looking at it as a whole).

    Did Paul say creation is under the curse of sin and death because Adam sinned..... Or did God subject all of Creation to futility for another reason (perhaps one concerning redemption)?
     
    #45 JonC, Feb 11, 2020
  6. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Colossians 3:10 came to mind.
    '.....And have put on the new man [NASB 'self'] who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him.' [Ephesians 4:24 is similar]
    This is speaking of Christians and they are being renewed or renovated so that they are made like God, according to His image., in accordance with how God made man in the beginning. So Adam and Eve were given the true knowledge of God when they were created, and this knowledge is restored to believers. Therefore it must have been lost at the Fall.
     
    #46 Martin Marprelate, Feb 11, 2020
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  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Where do you find that "Adam and Eve were given the true knowledge of God"?

    It seems that Cain, Able, David, Moses, etc also had a true knowledge of God.

    I am not arguing against you (yet :Biggrin). I just do not follow where you get this information.
     
    #47 JonC, Feb 11, 2020
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Yes, the image- bearer doctrine is very instructive in how God restores man to peace and rest.

    Christopher Culver sermon notes
    Sacred Space in the First Creation

    The reality of sacred space is an eternal conception in the sense that it speaks to God’s intention regarding His relationship with His creation, and particularly His image-bearers. All that has been “playing out” on the stage of history since the creation of the universe constitutes the outworking of God’s eternal counsel (Ephesians 1:3-12), and sacred space – with all that encompasses and implies – is at the heart of that determination.


    But relationship implies intimacy; God must be present with His image-bearers to fulfill His purpose in and for them. He must dwell among them if they are to know Him; hence the necessity for and centrality of sacred space. From its opening words the Bible leaves no doubt that this is its focus (as indeed it must be if this religious text is the revelation of the personal Creator God). No sooner does the Scripture introduce the fact of the creation than it moves to the core concerns in creation, all of which speak to God’s intention to dwell with His image-sons – his intention with regard to sacred space.


    A. Essence of Sacred Space

    At the outset the Bible introduces the motif of sacred space, and from that point forward it serves as its core and unifying theme. (Many would argue that the kingdom of God is the preeminent theme in the Scripture, but even this grand theme has its focus in sacred space.) The text begins with an account of the creation, with God’s creative work culminating in His planting of a garden in Eden. The man and woman were to reside there and, from that central place, fulfill their creational mandate (Genesis 1:1-2:15). More importantly, this garden was created as a sanctuary: the appointed place where God would meet with His image-bearers. As the location where God first dwelled in relation to His creation, Eden was the first expression of sacred space.

    Eden’s status as God’s dwelling place is evident less from the creation narrative itself than from the way the rest of the Bible interprets and interacts with it. In particular, the Scripture assigns two titles to Eden that identify it as the divine habitation: It is called both the mountain of God and the garden of God. These titles, while referring to the physical Eden of the first creation, serve importantly to connect it with other manifestations of sacred space. In this way the Bible shows that Eden provides a foundational prototype of sacred space, one that will be drawn upon and developed throughout the balance of biblical revelation.

    1. Eden as the Mountain of God

    The title, “mountain of God,” is most often associated with Mount Horeb (Mount Sinai) where Moses first encountered God in the burning bush and later received the covenant on behalf of the sons of Israel (Exodus 3:1-2, 24:1-13; cf. 1 Kings 19:1-8). In this usage the emphasis isn’t on God’s habitation as such, but rather the place where God meets with men; the place where the divine and human are brought together (cf. Genesis 22:14).

    This same connotation is carried forward and further developed in the Bible’s treatment of Mount Zion as the site of the temple in Jerusalem. It was there that the sons of Israel met with Yahweh, and the prophets spoke of the day when all the nations would join them. The point of that imagery is not that the whole world would literally journey to Jerusalem, but that, in the fulfillment to come, all the nations would become worshippers of the true and living God (Isaiah 66:20; Jeremiah 3:17; Micah 4:1-2). Jerusalem is so closely linked with the “mount of God” that the terms are sometimes used synonymously (ref. Isaiah 37:32, 66:20; Daniel 9:16; Joel 2:32, 3:17; Zechariah 8:3).
     
    #48 Iconoclast, Feb 11, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2020
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    How do you reconcile your concept here that salvation is restoring man's relationship to God (bring back "spiritual life") with Scripture?
     
    #49 JonC, Feb 12, 2020
  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    The Bible teaches it clearly in Romans, Ephesians, and Colossians in particular as the other men have indicated.
    Dead alienated sinners have peace with God In Christ.rom5:1,12-21]
    Restoring sacred space restores peace and rest.
     
    #50 Iconoclast, Feb 12, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2020
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The Bible does teach that sin separates God from man. But that is not what I am asking.

    Part of the reason I wonder is your idea here regarding sacred space. I was not going to mention it, but since you bring it up I will. Part of my concern here is that Christianity does not look to restoring sacred space. Christianity does not look at Christ as restoring mankind back to what man was in the Garden. That is paganism. ANE paganism is based on this type of restoration (ANE temple cities were situated as sacred spaces very much like we read of the Garden in Genesis).

    What Christianity looks to is a re-creation (not a return to the original creation). There will be a new heaven and a new earth, and a new mankind of whom Christ is the Firstborn. It is something new - not a return to something old. Where paganism looks back Christianity sees Genesis (and all of Scripture) looking forward and the object of its gaze is Christ.

    This is why you interpreted the "first Adam who became a living soul" and the "last Adam who became a life-giving spirit" as Adam being created with a natural body and then made spiritually alive. You miss the entire point of the passage (the "last Adam" is Christ, first the natural and then the spiritual) because you are cutting up Scripture to try and support your theology (which is actually more philosophy because it is not Christ centered).

    I encourage you to read Scripture rather than using it as a tool to defend your arguments. You are very wrong about 1 Corinthians 15.
     
    #51 JonC, Feb 12, 2020
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Do we really know just how glorious Adam was before he fell, and one must restored back to spiritual life before one can get then glorified!
     
    #52 Yeshua1, Feb 12, 2020
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I do not think that Scripture speaks of the glory of Adam. These are things that cannot be discussed because they are unable to be based in Scripture itself. It is like @Martin Marprelate 's comment that Adam and Eve had a true knowledge of God. What does that mean? That Enoch and David had a false knowledge of God? It is like @Iconoclast 's post about Christ coming to restore mankind to a post-Fall state. Where did that come from?

    These things cannot be defended (which is why I suspect they will not be defended here) because they are not based on God's Word but on a narrative men have created. Did Adam have some sort of glory? Maybe. But Scripture does not say so. Did Adam and Eve have a "true knowledge of God"? First the "true knowledge of God" has to be defined. Then, maybe. But all we have to go on is Scripture. Did Christ come to restore mankind to a post-Fall state? Absolutely not (that one we can address).

    My point is we can say things around people who hold the same view that may not square with Scripture without problems arising. But when we start arguing these narratives they need to stick close to Scripture and at least be able to be defended.
     
    #53 JonC, Feb 12, 2020
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We do know that Adam was immortal until he fell though, as sin brought death into creation....
     
    #54 Yeshua1, Feb 12, 2020
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, we cannot know that because Scripture does not speak of that. You assume it based on death entering the world due to Adam's sin. By that logic Adam was not created male (he was asexual) because Eve had yet been created.

    We have to remember that God is sovereign over creation. God does not have to create a provision for things outside of His redemptive plan. As a Calvinist you of all people should recognize this.
     
    #55 JonC, Feb 12, 2020
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    IF Adam had not sinned, he would have not physical died then, correct?
     
    #56 Yeshua1, Feb 12, 2020
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That is philosophy. I am talking about Scripture. If Adam had not sinned then Christ would not be the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
     
    #57 JonC, Feb 12, 2020
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    scriptures states the soul that sins must die, that death entered in due to the fall, so my point seems to be lining up with scriptures...
     
    #58 Yeshua1, Feb 12, 2020
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, it isn't. You are stating passages we all agree on to prove unrelated conclusions. You ssid "if" a Adam had not sinned (philosophical question) then he would not have died (you also stated he would live forever, be ageless, and had dome type of glory). You cannot prove that point by stating what actually occurred.
     
    #59 JonC, Feb 12, 2020
  20. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    In discussing Adam, it is, of course, important to realise the amazing status he had before the Fall. I put some of this on another thread, but since this one is so similar, I think it may be helpful to put it here as well.
    First of all, of course, he was unique, both in his creation (Genesis 1:27) and in his fall (Romans 5:12-21). He was also the apex of all God's creation. All creation was 'good' but after the creation of man, God pronounced it 'very good.' Man is therefore creation's crowning glory. So it was necessary that Adam be created sinless, but, of course, he was also defectable, otherwise the warning of Genesis 2:17 would not have been necessary. 'Truly, this only have I found: that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes' (Ecclesiastes 7:29).
    May I suggest that before the Fall, Adam was designated prophet, priest and king under God? The 'king' bit is easy: God gave Adam 'dominion over.......all the earth' (Genesis 1:26). Adam is told 'Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it.' This is an instruction that Adam would have had to pass on to his progeny; hence, he was a prophet, speaking the words that God gave him. Eden was a place where God walked (Genesis 3:8); his presence, pre-Fall, was with the first couple. Where else is God's presence with man made manifest? In the Tabernacle (Exodus 40:34), the Temple (1 Kings 8:10-11), in the Church (Matthew 18:20), and in the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:3). So Eden was a garden temple, a place where man met with God. Therefore Adam was a priest.
    So was Adam spiritually alive? Beyond doubt. 'A sinless image-bearer was called by God to be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth with others like him. He was to subdue the earth and rule over the other creatures, starting in the garden of Eden and going out from there (Genesis 1:28). He was made of body and soul outside the garden (Genesis 2:7-8). He was put in the garden to begin the task assigned to him as a priest. He was given a law to obey and a helper to compliment him so that he could fulfill his task. He was a son of God (Luke 3:38). He was a spokesman for God (i.e. a prophet) and a ruler. He was in covenant with God . [Yet the humblest Christian is greater than he. For] he violated the covenant He sinned and transgressed God's law. He was subsequently cursed, clothed with animal skins and exiled from the garden. Now he's sinful, a terrible image of God, a covenant-breaker, and no longer the keeper of God's garden temple.' [R. Barcellos, Better than the Beginning. RBAP, 2013]

    When we compare the opening chapters of Genesis with the closing chapters of Revelation, there are some interesting similarities and contrasts:
    1. The devil, who first appears in Gen. 3, is thrown into the lake of fire.
    2. The first heavens and first earth of Genesis 1:1 become the new heavens and new earth of Revelation 21:1.
    3. The tree of life, that first appears in Gen. 2, turns up on the new earth.
    4. As God dwelt with Adam in Eden, so He will dwell with all the citizens of the new earth.
    5. There will no longer be any death in the new earth. Christians are better placed than Adam was.

    'In Him the tribes of Adam boast
    More blessings than their father lost'     Isaac watts.
     
    #60 Martin Marprelate, Feb 12, 2020
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