Is Veneration of the Saints something that is allowed by God?

What Christian sect are you a member of? I don't remember you telling us before.

 

I Cor 1, Paul calls all of the Christians in Corinth “Saints”

Ie, all believers are “Saints”

 

Christians believe in the communion of saints. Communio is in our nature.

Perhaps Protestants should chisel off and stop writing R.I.P. from their tombstones...

 

What sect are you a member of?

 

The “veneration of the saints” was most likely an attempt to “Christianize” the pagan practice of praying to ancestors for guidance. The Romans made small idols of their ancestors and prayed to them.

So, I suspect, Church leaders advised believers to pray to their “Christian” ancestors, and led them to believe strong Christians like Paul or Mary or others could make intercession for you with Jesus/God the Father.

It is sinful, imo, because it violates scripture that says there is only one mediator between God and man; Jesus.

peace to you

 

Was David influenced by pagan practices?

David in Psalm 103:21 ---> "Praise the Lord, all his heavenly hosts, you his servants who do his will."

In Psalm 148:1-2 ---> "Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord from the heavens; praise him in the heights above. Praise him, all his angels; praise him, all his heavenly hosts."

Scripture records the saints in heaven interceding in St. John's Revelation...

Revelation 5:6---> "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints."

Revelation 8:4 ---> "And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand."


Intercessor: One who intercedes
Intercede: To act or interpose in behalf of someone in difficulty or trouble, as by pleading or petition

St. John explicitly describes God receiving prayers from someone other than the primary petitioner in Rev. 5:8 and Rev. 8:4. This makes the person presenting and taking the prayers of the primary petitioner to God - by definition - an intercessor.

St. Paul also told the faithful at Galatia that there is at least one other mediator. Unless you believe the Apostle contradicted himself or simply didn't couldn't add, it demonstrates there is more than one type of mediator...

Galatians 3:19 ---> "Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator."

Here the Apostle lists another as a mediator and uses the exact same Greek word (mesités) to refer to Moses as a mediator as he does for Christ as mediator. Thus, the Scriptures teach there is a differentiation between Christ's unique mediation (as the God-man) and man's mediation (as members of God's Church).

His referring to Christ as mediator in his letter to his young bishop St. Timothy (which I presume you are referencing) is a Christological statement testifying to Christ's unique mediation as the one and only God-man who offered Himself to the Father. (cf. 1 Tim 2:5-6)

Mesités: an arbitrator, a mediator

Original Word: μεσίτης, ου, ὁ

Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine

Transliteration: mesités

Phonetic Spelling: (mes-ee'-tace)

Short Definition: a mediator, go-between

Definition: (a) a mediator, intermediary, (b) a go-between, arbiter, agent of something good.

Source: Strong's Greek: 3316. μεσίτης (mesités) -- an arbitrator, a mediator


Mediator: advocate, arbiter, arbitrator, go-between, honest broker, interceder, intermediary, judge, middleman, moderator, negotiator, peacemaker, referee, umpire

Source: mediator synonym | English synonyms dictionary | Reverso

 

The Latin Rite of Christianity, more commonly known as "Roman Catholic". Now, if our friend Hobie will just answer my initial query.

 

We are all part of the priesthood too, but some of us are ordained and therefore set apart from the rest of us in a leadership role. Orthodox Christians call their leaders priests while other Christians use the term pastor.

It is the same with "the Saints" as they are known by orthodox Christians. They have been rightly set apart through momentous deeds like martyrdom, people whom the rest of us can look up to and try to emulate. A person like St. Thomas Moore comes to mind, a man steadfast in his faith and convictions who refused to buckle to Henry VIII under pain of death - and die he did. How many of us could do the same?

 

Not sure how you are connecting David’s palms to praying to the images of saints. Makes no sense.

As far as your references to the book of Revelation, you gave no example of any Christian still alive on earth praying to a dead saint to intercede for them before God. It isn’t there.

As far as your reference to OT passages concerning mediators, including Moses, you have completely missed the point. The Law of Moses put mediators between men and God. They were priests. They were alive. No where in OT is anyone instructed to pray to former saints, now dead, to intercede before God for those alive on the earth. It isn’t there. In fact, the closest thing to such an event was when King Saul used the witch of Endor to summon the dead prophet Samuel to get advice. He was condemned for his actions.

Jesus did away with the need for a mediator, such as a priest, to intercede for us. We go directly to God, through Jesus His Son, to make our petitions for salvation, forgiveness of sins, enabling grace and everything else. If Jesus did away with the earthly mediators (priests), which He did, He most certainly did not put into place prayer to dead saints.

Jesus is the only mediator a Christian needs. I suspect that were it possible to weep in heaven, the saints in heaven would weep every time someone prays to them instead of going directly to their Lord Jesus.

peace to you

 

Who is praying to images of saints. I saw a Baptist pastor kneeling before a chair with a bible upon it. Am I to assume he was worshipping the chair or the bible?

 

Or how about these Protestants worshipping a pulpit...





Or these worshipping plants?




Sometimes it's hard to take these folks seriously...

 

Let me try to make sense of why I posted those quotations of David praying to those in heaven. The reason I did is because you asserted seeking the intercession of the saints was pagan.

Here is your post ---> Is Veneration of the Saints something that is allowed by God?

You can dismiss Revelation for the sake of this argument. That leaves you with explicit example of David praying to those in heaven in the Psalms. According to your previous assertion, that makes him a pagan.

I direct you again to the words of David, who prayed to the angels and saints in heaven...

David in Psalm 103:21 ---> "Praise the Lord, all his heavenly hosts, you his servants who do his will."

In Psalm 148:1-2 ---> "Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord from the heavens; praise him in the heights above. Praise him, all his angels; praise him, all his heavenly hosts."

Unless the "heavenly hosts", the "angels", those "from the heavens" and those "in the heights above" are God Himself, David is petitioning those in heaven - other than God - to join him in praise.

Jesus did not do away with the need for a mediator. The Church is an extension of the Incarnation. Throughout salvation history, God has always used mediators to convey his message. This act of using man to convey His message culminates when God entered into His creation by becoming Man. By virtue of the Incarnation, God now continues to use man to convey not only His message, but now His grace. The logical end of this "I have a direct line to God" theology would thus lead to the belief that...

- One can formulate one's own credal statements about Who God Is
- One can pen one's own Scripture
- One can preach one's own sermons
- One can baptize himself
- One can marry himself
- One can ordain himself
- One can anoint himself
- One can forgive his own sins by confessing them to himself
- One can confect one's own Eucharistic sacrifice


The Scriptures teach there is a differentiation between Christ's unique mediation (as the God-man) and man's mediation (as members of God's Church).

 

And then the only reply to that is do not ever ask someone to pray for you as that person then becomes a mediator between you and God. I don't understand how you do not see that those now asleep are really not dead but as alive in Christ as you or me. They still remain a part of the body of Christ, do they not?

 

If you are praying to saints, with or without images makes no difference, it violates the teachings of scripture that Jesus is the only mediator between God and man.

As far as the Baptist Pastor, why would you assume he was worshipping the chair or the Bible, instead of worshipping our Lord Jesus?

peace to you

 

You don't seem to know the difference between a mediator and an intercessor.

 

Yes, they are part of the body of Christ, spiritually alive, in heaven and not relaying the prayers of physically alive brethren to God. That is not their role in heaven. Jesus has taken the role of mediator for Himself.

When I ask someone to pray for me, I am not asking that they pray instead of me. My asking for their prayers is not praying to them at all. I can communicate with them without prayer. And I don’t assume their prayers will be heard if mine are not.

Praying to someone who is physically dead and asking that they present my petition to God, instead of praying to Jesus for that petition, usurps the authority Jesus has as our one and only mediator before God. It dishonors our Lord.

peace to you

 

But that is exactly what you are doing when you ask someone to pray for you, they have taken the role of a mediator between you and Christ. Pray to Jesus yourself and forget about anyone else interceding for you.

 

See my previous post.

 

David’s spirit cried out that all that lived in heaven and on earth should lift their voices and praise God. He does not pray to physically dead saints or angels, as you claimed. He does not ask that relay his prayers to God. It is not there.

I am glad you can agree with me that the passage you cited in Revelation doesn’t support your position.

Jesus did away with the imperfect human mediators and took the role for Himself. Christians on earth convey the gospel message but God conveys grace through Holy Spirit. We may preach the gospel, but Holy Spirit convicts the heater of the truth about sin and grace. No man on earth, not even one, controls God’s grace; as to when it is given or to whom. God alone dispenses His grace.

The only logical end to this “I have a direct line to God” theology is.....

“Thank you Lord Jesus, that my salvation is not subject to the whims of men. May I be a true and faithful servant to You, my Lord and my God.“

peace to you