Is Veneration of the Saints something that is allowed by God?

[Adonia]

You don't seem to know the difference between a mediator and an intercessor.

As our friend posted earlier .

Mediator: advocate, arbiter, arbitrator, go-between, honest broker, interceder, intermediary, judge, middleman, moderator, negotiator, peacemaker, referee, umpire.

Looks to me they are about one and the same. But go ahead, what does your dictionary say about the two words?

 

[canadyjd]

But that is exactly what you are doing when you ask someone to pray for you, they have taken the role of a mediator between you and Christ. Pray to Jesus yourself and forget about anyone else interceding for you.

I understand that you see no difference between asking a physically alive person to pray for you and praying to a dead saint to relay your prayers to God.

As I stated before, when I ask someone to pray for me, I’m not asking they pray instead of me. I don’t believe God will hear their prayers if mine our not. I’m not “praying to their spirits” as the pagans prayed to the spirits of their ancestors,, since they are still alive and I can communicate directly to them.

These petitions are very different. One violates scripture and the other does not. One usurps Jesus”s role as mediator and one does not.

That said, we can disagree.

peace to you

 

[Revmitchell]

As our friend posted earlier .

Mediator: advocate, arbiter, arbitrator, go-between, honest broker, interceder, intermediary, judge, middleman, moderator, negotiator, peacemaker, referee, umpire.

Looks to me they are about one and the same. But go ahead, what does your dictionary say about the two words?

Of course it does. That way you can continue to make your incorrect and false accusation.

 

[Walpole]

David’s spirit cried out that all that lived in heaven and on earth should lift their voices and praise God. He does not pray to physically dead saints or angels, as you claimed. He does not ask that relay his prayers to God. It is not there.

David prayed to and invoked those in heaven. He petitions them, and as you now concede, he cries out to them in heaven. Therefore, according to your previous assertion, that makes him a pagan.

I am glad you can agree with me that the passage you cited in Revelation doesn’t support your position.

I do not agree with you regarding Revelation. I simply said you are free to dismiss the example of Revelation and instead to turn our attention to David's example of invoking the angels and saints in heaven.

Jesus did away with the imperfect human mediators and took the role for Himself. Christians on earth convey the gospel message but God conveys grace through Holy Spirit. We may preach the gospel, but Holy Spirit convicts the heater of the truth about sin and grace. No man on earth, not even one, controls God’s grace; as to when it is given or to whom. God alone dispenses His grace.

The only logical end to this “I have a direct line to God” theology is.....

“Thank you Lord Jesus, that my salvation is not subject to the whims of men. May I be a true and faithful servant to You, my Lord and my God.“

peace to you

The only logical end for his commands to teach, baptize, instruct, forgive sins, offer the Eucharistic sacrifice etc. etc. is His Church is an extension of the Incarnation and hence continues His mission...

"Thank you Lord Jesus for becoming man and giving us the Church so as to know the truth, be sanctified by your grace and to live with you forever."

 

[canadyjd]

David prayed to and invoked those in heaven. He petitions them, and as you now concede, he cries out to them in heaven. Therefore, according to your previous assertion, that makes him a pagan.



I do not agree with you regarding Revelation. I simply said you are free to dismiss the example of Revelation and instead to turn our attention to David's example of invoking the angels and saints in heaven.



The only logical end for his commands to teach, baptize, instruct, forgive sins, offer the Eucharistic sacrifice etc. etc. is His Church is an extension of the Incarnation and hence continues His mission...

"Thank you Lord Jesus for becoming man and giving us the Church so as to know the truth, be sanctified by your grace and to live with you forever."

To claim King David prayed to angels is blasphemous. David sang a song (psalm) declaring all of creation should sing praises to God. He did not petition saints or angels in heaven to deliver his prayers to God.

When Jesus taught us to pray, He said to pray, “Our Father, who is in Heaven....” Jesus gave us the direct line to God.

He did not say to pray like this, “Oh Virgin Mary (insert favorite patron saint here) hear my prayer....”

To pray to dead saints is to usurp the authority a Jesus took for Himself as the only mediator between God and man.

There is a role for the church in this world. Men have routinely abused the position Jesus gave them and have added to His teachings things that are untrue and harmful to the cause of Christ in the world.

peace to you

 

[Adonia]

Of course it does. That way you can continue to make your incorrect and false accusation.

No Catholic sees anyone else as the Savior except Jesus Christ, the advocate before God for all men who call upon him. His death and resurrection is the prime focus of our worship service above all else.

 

[Van]

I am not sure I understand this thread, but here goes:

Giving honor to fellow members of the body of Christ is certainly supported by scripture, i.e. honor one another.
OTOH, praying (communicating) to the dead is not supported, Luke 16.
Clearly no replica should be "worshiped, prayed to, or otherwise idolized.:

But I have several biographies of past Christians (i.e. Hudson) and using their lives to encourage others seems appropriate to me.

 

[MarysSon]

When Jesus taught us to pray, He said to pray, “Our Father, who is in Heaven....” Jesus gave us the direct line to God.

He did not say to pray like this, “Oh Virgin Mary (insert favorite patron saint here) hear my prayer....”

To pray to dead saints is to usurp the authority a Jesus took for Himself as the only mediator between God and man.

There is a role for the church in this world. Men have routinely abused the position Jesus gave them and have added to His teachings things that are untrue and harmful to the cause of Christ in the world.

peace to you

First of all - Christ taught us how to pray - to the FATHER.
He never stated that this was the "only" type of prayer. The lesson He was teaching was about how to approach the FATHER.

Secondly - we don't pray to "dead" saints. They are MORE alive that YOU are because they have been made perfect in Christ. YOU are still being worked on - so why is it okay for YOU to pray for somebody??

Thirdly - Rev. 5:8 shows the Elders in Heaven taking our prayers to God - and Rev. 8:4-5 shows the angels doing the SAME thing. They are all interceding for is. James 5:16 commands us to intercede for each other. It states the the prayers of a RIGHTEOUS person are very powerful. ALL those in Heaven have been made righteous in Christ. Protestants always tell me that there is "NONE" righteous on earth (Rom. 3:10).

Finally - there is NO prohibition in praying to those in heaven to ask them to pray for us. The prohibitions in Leviticus and Deuteronomy are against NECROMANCY, which is an attempt to glean information from the dead. We don't do that. We simply ask them to pray FOR us - as we would any other member of the Body of Christ.

 

[canadyjd]

First of all - Christ taught us how to pray - to the FATHER.
He never stated that this was the "only" type of prayer. The lesson He was teaching was about how to approach the FATHER.

Secondly - we don't pray to "dead" saints. They are MORE alive that YOU are because they have been made perfect in Christ. YOU are still being worked on - so why is it okay for YOU to pray for somebody??

Thirdly - Rev. 5:8 shows the Elders in Heaven taking our prayers to God - and Rev. 8:4-5 shows the angels doing the SAME thing. They are all interceding for is. James 5:16 commands us to intercede for each other. It states the the prayers of a RIGHTEOUS person are very powerful. ALL those in Heaven have been made righteous in Christ. Protestants always tell me that there is "NONE" righteous on earth (Rom. 3:10).

Finally - there is NO prohibition in praying to those in heaven to ask them to pray for us. The prohibitions in Leviticus and Deuteronomy are against NECROMANCY, which is an attempt to glean information from the dead. We don't do that. We simply ask them to pray FOR us - as we would any other member of the Body of Christ.

Like I said, Jesus told us how to pray. For some people, that isn’t good enough. They add things that Jesus didn’t say and proclaim that since Jesus prohibit it, it must be ok to follow pagan practices and pray to those that have died, physically, and ask they petition God for them.

Jesus did warn us not to pray like the pagans who believed they would be heard for their many words. And yet, some ignore Jesus and pray like the pagans.

Someone claimed David “invoked” the angels and saints in heaven. He didn’t even realize he was using pagan terminology. The pagans “invoked” the spirits by certain prayers that were believed to compel the spirits to do their bidding.

Revelation is highly symbolic. Yet no where are the prayers of the saints said to be directed to elders or angels.

peace to you

 

[Yeshua1]

We are all part of the priesthood too, but some of us are ordained and therefore set apart from the rest of us in a leadership role. Orthodox Christians call their leaders priests while other Christians use the term pastor.

It is the same with "the Saints" as they are known by orthodox Christians. They have been rightly set apart through momentous deeds like martyrdom, people whom the rest of us can look up to and try to emulate. A person like St. Thomas Moore comes to mind, a man steadfast in his faith and convictions who refused to buckle to Henry VIII under pain of death - and die he did. How many of us could do the same?

I am as much of a saint to God as peter , paul. and John were!

 

[Yeshua1]

What Christian sect are you a member of? I don't remember you telling us before.

Believe he is Sda....

 

[Adonia]

I am as much of a saint to God as peter , paul. and John were!

That's nice.

 

[MarysSon]

Like I said, Jesus told us how to pray. For some people, that isn’t good enough. They add things that Jesus didn’t say and proclaim that since Jesus prohibit it, it must be ok to follow pagan practices and pray to those that have died, physically, and ask they petition God for them.

Jesus did warn us not to pray like the pagans who believed they would be heard for their many words. And yet, some ignore Jesus and pray like the pagans.

Someone claimed David “invoked” the angels and saints in heaven. He didn’t even realize he was using pagan terminology. The pagans “invoked” the spirits by certain prayers that were believed to compel the spirits to do their bidding.

Revelation is highly symbolic. Yet no where are the prayers of the saints said to be directed to elders or angels.

peace to you

And, like I said - Jesus taught us how to pray to the FATHER because He was showing the crowd how to approach him AS a Father. Jesus never said, "This is the ONLY way you should pray."
Apparently - YOU don't know what "pray" means. Time for a language lesson . . .

Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary:
Full Definition of pray
transitive verb

1: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying

intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

You will notice that "worship" is a SECONDARY definition.
The PRIMARY definition simply means "to ASK". It is a legal, juridical term that is used in police reports and the court system. YOU pray to others every time you ask them a question.

As to your 2nd comment above in RED - that is describing necromancy because they were trying to compel spirits to give them information. This is NOT the case with asking a member of the Body of Christ to pray for you.

Finally - as to Rev. 5:8 and Rev. 8:4-5 - these are examples of intercession by those in Heaven.
WHERE do you think they GOT the prayers they are taking to God in the first place??

 

[Walpole]

To claim King David prayed to angels is blasphemous. David sang a song (psalm) declaring all of creation should sing praises to God. He did not petition saints or angels in heaven to deliver his prayers to God.

You have just called David not only a de facto pagan (in your previous post), but now you must also call him a blasphemer. Here again is is PRAYER to the angels in heaven...

Psalm 103:21 ---> "Praise the Lord, all his heavenly hosts, you his servants who do his will." (Psalm 103:21)

Psalm 1348:1-2 ---> "Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord from the heavens; praise him in the heights above. Praise him, all his angels; praise him, all his heavenly hosts."

When Jesus taught us to pray, He said to pray, “Our Father, who is in Heaven....” Jesus gave us the direct line to God.

He did not say to pray like this, “Oh Virgin Mary (insert favorite patron saint here) hear my prayer....”

To pray to dead saints is to usurp the authority a Jesus took for Himself as the only mediator between God and man.

The Communion of Saints is not usurping Jesus' authority, rather it reminds us that because of Christ, we are members of His body.

There is a role for the church in this world. Men have routinely abused the position Jesus gave them and have added to His teachings things that are untrue and harmful to the cause of Christ in the world.

peace to you

The Church is an extension of the Incarnation. Its mission is to continue the mission of Jesus by teaching, sanctifying and hence making saints.

 

[canadyjd]

You have just called David not only a de facto pagan (in your previous post), but now you must also call him a blasphemer. Here again is is PRAYER to the angels in heaven...

Psalm 103:21 ---> "Praise the Lord, all his heavenly hosts, you his servants who do his will." (Psalm 103:21)

Psalm 1348:1-2 ---> "Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord from the heavens; praise him in the heights above. Praise him, all his angels; praise him, all his heavenly hosts."





The Communion of Saints is not usurping Jesus' authority, rather it reminds us that because of Christ, we are members of His body.




The Church is an extension of the Incarnation. Its mission is to continue the mission of Jesus by teaching, sanctifying and hence making saints.

Our beliefs are miles apart. Thanks for the conversation.

peace to you

 

[Walpole]

Our beliefs are miles apart. Thanks for the conversation.

peace to you

Agreed. I think about the only thing we probably have in common is that we both believe in God.

God bless.

 

[canadyjd]

Agreed. I think about the only thing we probably have in common is that we both believe in God.

God bless.

Well, I that’s a start. I do understand your position, and just disagree.

God bless you as well. My request for God to bless you went directly to God. Please don’t ask one of the saints to relay your blessing request for me to God.......lol just kidding. I need every blessing I can get.

peace to you

 

[Walpole]

Well, I that’s a start. I do understand your position, and just disagree.

God bless you as well. My request for God to bless you went directly to God. Please don’t ask one of the saints to relay your blessing request for me to God.......lol just kidding. I need every blessing I can get.

peace to you

Thank you so much for your prayers.

Thank you also for the pleasant and charitable discussion. While I realize there is much that we will likely not reach an agreement on, I always hope that at the end of any of these types of discussions, each side would come to the conclusion that the other’s position is at least a reasonable one to hold.

God bless.

 

[Walter]

You have just called David not only a de facto pagan (in your previous post), but now you must also call him a blasphemer. Here again is is PRAYER to the angels in heaven...

Psalm 103:21 ---> "Praise the Lord, all his heavenly hosts, you his servants who do his will." (Psalm 103:21)

Psalm 1348:1-2 ---> "Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord from the heavens; praise him in the heights above. Praise him, all his angels; praise him, all his heavenly hosts."





The Communion of Saints is not usurping Jesus' authority, rather it reminds us that because of Christ, we are members of His body.




The Church is an extension of the Incarnation. Its mission is to continue the mission of Jesus by teaching, sanctifying and hence making saints.

Slam dunk WINNER!!!!!!

 

[canadyjd]

Thank you so much for your prayers.

Thank you also for the pleasant and charitable discussion. While I realize there is much that we will likely not reach an agreement on, I always hope that at the end of any of these types of discussions, each side would come to the conclusion that the other’s position is at least a reasonable one to hold.

God bless.

Well, we agree again. Thank you presenting your opinions candidly and supported by scripture. I have stated before that I can, and have, changed my mind when presented with strong evidence from scripture.

Let’s talk again

peace to you