Is Veneration of the Saints something that is allowed by God?

[canadyjd]

Slam dunk WINNER!!!!!!

Slam dunk WINNER!!!!!!

Slam dunk WINNER!!!!!!

I saw an “air ball” that went out of bounds. A good sport nevertheless,

peace to you

(edit) Apologies. I didn’t mean to post your post three times. If that is suppose to mean something in cyber speak, please know it was unintentional.

 

[Walpole]

Well, we agree again. Thank you presenting your opinions candidly and supported by scripture. I have stated before that I can, and have, changed my mind when presented with strong evidence from scripture.

Let’s talk again

peace to you

Thanks again for the kind words. I look forward to further discussions with you.

God bless.

 

[Noah Hirsch]

You can say they represent the Saints, yet they are still of wood or stone or metal, and people come and worship them no matter how it is called. Now what does scripture say, does God allow even the idol of a 'saint' or any idol, lets see...

"Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols;
and turn away your faces from all your abominations."
-Ezekiel 14:6

So how as history shows us can any church embrace and gather as many statues, medals, relics, and artifacts to themselves as a sign of holiness unto God. The Creator specifically states...

Exodus 20:4, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:"

Deuteronomy 29:17, "And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among them

Some churches teach their followers to bow down before these 'saints' when in prayer. Anyone can walk into these church and see kneelers before every statue place within. However, the Creator specifically states...

Exodus 20:5, "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God,visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"

Leviticus 26:1, "Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God."

So even though they change the name its still the same thing, so is 'Veneration of the Saints' the same sin against God?

Veneration of the saints is most certainly a form of idolatry. Those churches which you describe are not true Christian churches.

 

[Yeshua1]

Veneration of the saints is most certainly a form of idolatry. Those churches which you describe are not true Christian churches.

Even John got rebuked for venerating the Angel messenger, and that angle was more worthy of that then any human! Only the truine God is to be worshipped!

 

[utilyan]

Even John got rebuked for venerating the Angel messenger, and that angle was more worthy of that then any human! Only the truine God is to be worshipped!

We only worship God.

Maybe if your standard was not treating other people like trash.

Then every act of love by catholic would no longer make your sanctimonious worship look so bad.


What could you expect from people off the bat believe everyone they see deserves hell and God most likely hates them?

Of Course the way we treat Mary and Saints is shocking to you thats how they treat each other with kindness and love.

You know kindness and love those weak words that make you choke and are meaningless to you.

 

[Noah Hirsch]

Veneration of the saints is most certainly a form of idolatry. Those churches which you describe are not true Christian churches.

It is God who gets to declare and determine what qualifies as idolatry and what doesn’t. We must therefore, go by the meaning and description of idolatry contained in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to determine whether or not the generation of Mary and the saints is indeed idolatry. The rule to determine whether the religious devotion or service performed by anyone is acceptable to God, or whether it is idolatrous and an abomination in His sight is the written Word. What a trial therefore, be made by the Word of truth whether what they do to statues is idolatry according to the standard of the Word, whether or not venerating Mary and the saints is idolatry in God’s sight. Just if our own practices as Protestants in our religious service and devotions is to be judged by the Bible whether God accepts of it or not, so their worship, veneration, and devotions are to be judged by the rule of the Word. Neither they nor we Protestants are the rule or standard of that worship and service which God accepts and approves.

 

[Yeshua1]

We only worship God.

Maybe if your standard was not treating other people like trash.

Then every act of love by catholic would no longer make your sanctimonious worship look so bad.


What could you expect from people off the bat believe everyone they see deserves hell and God most likely hates them?

Of Course the way we treat Mary and Saints is shocking to you thats how they treat each other with kindness and love.

You know kindness and love those weak words that make you choke and are meaningless to you.

We are all saints to God when saved, and I am just as precious to Jesus as Mary was!

 

[utilyan]

We are all saints to God when saved, and I am just as precious to Jesus as Mary was!

Yes you are. Only I hate to show up on your birthday and be called a heretic for worshiping you.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes you are. Only I hate to show up on your birthday and be called a heretic for worshiping you.

Only worship the Trinity!

 

[Noah Hirsch]

We are all saints to God when saved, and I am just as precious to Jesus as Mary was!

If therefore, we are all saints (1 Corinthians 1:2) and are saved the same way Mary was, (Luke 1:46-55) then what shall we say of their invocation and veneration? If we ourselves are saints can it be but idolatrous to bow before statues of them? Even if it were allowable to bow before a statue, could it be said to be right to bow before a statue of one of our equals? But certainly, the veneration is paid to such as they believe a peculiar honor is due and consider them greater than themselves. But is not such reverence and veneration in exalting a fellow creature by bowing down before their image or invoking them a form of worship, and therefore idolatry?

 

[Yeshua1]

If therefore, we are all saints (1 Corinthians 1:2) and are saved the same way Mary was, (Luke 1:46-55) then what shall we say of their invocation and veneration? If we ourselves are saints can it be but idolatrous to bow before statues of them? Even if it were allowable to bow before a statue, could it be said to be right to bow before a statue of one of our equals? But certainly, the veneration is paid to such as they believe a peculiar honor is due and consider them greater than themselves. But is not such reverence and veneration in exalting a fellow creature by bowing down before their image or invoking them a form of worship, and therefore idolatry?

They are practicing outright Idolatry!

 

[utilyan]

Only worship the Trinity!

The joke went over your head. I forgot your a Calvinist, i should really dumb things down.

 

[canadyjd]

I will admit that because of my conversation with some of the Catholics here, I have changed my mind in this way: I don’t view the “veneration” as idolatry.

They have been clear they don’t consider it worship of these saints. They view it as the same as asking a brother or sister here this side of heaven to pray for them. I know there are exceptions within the a Catholic community that view Mary as a co-redemptive, but that is another issue.

I don’t believe it benefits them, nor is it necessary since we are told by Jesus to make our requests directly to God, and He remains our one and only mediator.

However, I see no reason not to trust our brothers and sisters in Christ, when they explain their beliefs, especially since they have provided scripture which supports their beliefs, even if I disagree with their interpretation I cannot deny the plausible interpretation from Revelation that the saints in heaven are delivering the prayers of the saints on earth to God. It is there.

peace to you

 

[Walpole]

I will admit that because of my conversation with some of the Catholics here, I have changed my mind in this way: I don’t view the “veneration” as idolatry.

They have been clear they don’t consider it worship of these saints. They view it as the same as asking a brother or sister here this side of heaven to pray for them. I know there are exceptions within the a Catholic community that view Mary as a co-redemptive, but that is another issue.

I don’t believe it benefits them, nor is it necessary since we are told by Jesus to make our requests directly to God, and He remains our one and only mediator.

However, I see no reason not to trust our brothers and sisters in Christ, when they explain their beliefs, especially since they have provided scripture which supports their beliefs, even if I disagree with their interpretation I cannot deny the plausible interpretation from Revelation that the saints in heaven are delivering the prayers of the saints on earth to God. It is there.

peace to you

Thank you for this post. While you might not accept and agree with the Catholic understanding, you are honest enough to admit that it is a reasonable position to hold.

God bless.

 

[canadyjd]

Thank you for this post. While you might not agree and accept with the Catholic understanding, you are honest enough to admit that it is a reasonable position to hold.

God bless.

I will continue to meditate on the issue. I believe it important when debating to be able to accurately state the opposing view without distortion. I hope I was able to do that.

I think our conversation could be a model to others here that we can hold firm our beliefs without resorting to name calling and insults. These issues have been debated for thousands of years. We won’t solve it here, but can behave in a Christ-like manner...and we may learn something when are not expecting to.

peace to you

 

[Yeshua1]

I will continue to meditate on the issue. I believe it important when debating to be able to accurately state the opposing view without distortion. I hope I was able to do that.

I think our conversation could be a model to others here that we can hold firm our beliefs without resorting to name calling and insults. These issues have been debated for thousands of years. We won’t solve it here, but can behave in a Christ-like manner...and we may learn something when are not expecting to.

peace to you

Except when the RCC teaches damnable heresies, such as going against the true Gospel itself!

 

[canadyjd]

Except when the RCC teaches damnable heresies, such as going against the true Gospel itself!

Ok, but I don’t see the “veneration” issue as a damnable heresy, especially as explained by some folks here.

The passage from Revelation clearly says the saints in heaven deliver the prayers of the saints on earth. They see “veneration” in the same light as asking the brethren here to pray for you.

I’m not convince the saints from earth are actually praying to the saints in heaven, but I will not condemn someone as believing a damnable heresy if they see it otherwise.

I have always maintained our beliefs are determined by scripture, even when it cuts against what I have believed.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Please read Revelation 5:8. Isn’t it clear the saints in heaven are delivering the prayers of the saints on earth to our Lord Jesus?

peace to you

 

[Yeshua1]

Ok, but I don’t see the “veneration” issue as a damnable heresy, especially as explained by some folks here.

The passage from Revelation clearly says the saints in heaven deliver the prayers of the saints on earth. They see “veneration” in the same light as asking the brethren here to pray for you.

I’m not convince the saints from earth are actually praying to the saints in heaven, but I will not condemn someone as believing a damnable heresy if they see it otherwise.

I have always maintained our beliefs are determined by scripture, even when it cuts against what I have believed.

peace to you

The heresy of the Church of Rome would be in how they view salvation itself!

 

[canadyjd]

The heresy of the Church of Rome would be in how they view salvation itself!

The OP is about veneration. Did you read Revelation 5:8? Don’t you see a connection to veneration?

peace to you