• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Is Veneration of the Saints something that is allowed by God?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Walpole

Walpole

Well-Known Member
Noah Hirsch said:
Usually they will argue what they are doing is not prayer, but in reality as to the sense of what they do it is form. They say they invoke Mary, not pray to her. But as to the nature and essence of prayer is not invoking (calling upon) Mary really praying to her?

“Will he delight himself in the Almighty, And call upon God at all times?” (Job 27:10 ASV)

What is it that the Psalmist does in Psalm 5:2? Is it not invoke or call upon God?

“Hearken unto the voice of my cry, my King, and my God; For unto thee do I pray.” (Psalm 5:2 ASV)

What is this crying to God, but calling upon Him, calling upon His name?
Click to expand...


Have you removed the Psalms from your Bible? Here is David...


David in Psalm 103:21 ---> "Praise the Lord, all his heavenly hosts, you his servants who do his will."

In Psalm 148:1-2 ---> "Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord from the heavens; praise him in the heights above. Praise him, all his angels; praise him, all his heavenly hosts."


Unless you can make the case the "heavenly hosts", the "angels", those "from the heavens" and those "in the heights above" are God Himself, David is invoking someone in heaven other than God.
 
Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Noah Hirsch said:
Usually they will argue what they are doing is not prayer, but in reality as to the sense of what they do it is form. They say they invoke Mary, not pray to her. But as to the nature and essence of prayer is not invoking (calling upon) Mary really praying to her?

“Will he delight himself in the Almighty, And call upon God at all times?” (Job 27:10 ASV)

What is it that the Psalmist does in Psalm 5:2? Is it not invoke or call upon God?

“Hearken unto the voice of my cry, my King, and my God; For unto thee do I pray.” (Psalm 5:2 ASV)

What is this crying to God, but calling upon Him, calling upon His name?
Click to expand...
What are they doing in the Hail Mary and Beads then?
 
canadyjd

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
MarysSon said:
He was also FULLY Man.
Was he guilty of necromancy in His humanity?

Was Peter guilty of necromancy when he spoke to a DEAD Tabitha and raised her from the dead??
Click to expand...
Jesus is God. He wasn’t guilty of sin when talking to Moses and Elijah. He was transfigured into His glory when He did so.

Jesus and Peter spoke to people that had already been raised from the dead, so they weren’t offering prayers to those that had died. Peter prayed to God to raise Tabitha, not a saint or angel.

peace to you
 
Noah Hirsch

Noah Hirsch

Active Member
Yeshua1 said:
Many Catholics cross over from venerating to actually worshiping ping Mary!
Click to expand...

Well, the term “veneration” is a word that is used to justify their practice of worshiping Mary. As to the essence of what they do they worship her. But yes, there are also those particular in countries were their religion is dominant that admit to worshiping her.
 
Noah Hirsch

Noah Hirsch

Active Member
Yeshua1 said:
What are they doing in the Hail Mary and Beads then?
Click to expand...

They are praying to Mary, but they would deny that what they are doing is praying. Instead they would say they are invoking her, but whatever terms or words they use does not change the reality of what they are doing, that it is idolatry, being condemned as idolatry according to the Scripture account. It is quite clear and plain that the Hail Mary is a prayer to Mary regardless how they may try to justify it, arguing that it is not really prayer.
 
Walpole

Walpole

Well-Known Member
canadyjd said:
Jesus is God. He wasn’t guilty of sin when talking to Moses and Elijah. He was transfigured into His glory when He did so.

Jesus and Peter spoke to people that had already been raised from the dead, so they weren’t offering prayers to those that had died. Peter prayed to God to raise Tabitha, not a saint or angel.

peace to you
Click to expand...


Both Lazarus and Tabitha were most certainly physically dead. Regarding Lazarus, St. John provides an awful lot of detail to make it explicit that at Jesus' words, the dead Lazarus arose. He is clear that Lazarus was physically dead before the words our Blessed Lord spoke to him...

Jesus explicitly tells the disciples Lazarus is most assuredly dead. ---> John 11:14

When Jesus arrives in Bethany, Lazarus had been dead and in the grave for four days. ---> John 11:17

Martha warns Jesus that because he had been dead for four days, if He opens the grave, he will stinketh. ---> John 11:39

Jesus commands the dead Lazarus to come forth. ---> John 11:43

The dead Lazarus comes forth AFTER our Lord's command. ---> John 11:44

The risen Lazarus is still covered in his burial clothes, which Jesus then orders to have removed. ---> John 11:44



Regarding Tabitha at Joppa, St. Luke too provides details to make it explicit that at St. Peter's words, the dead Tabitha arose. He is clear that Tabitha was physically dead before the words St. Peter spoke to her...

Tabitha was sick and died ---> Acts 9:37

When St. Peter arrives, he is brought to the grieving family of Tabitha ---> Acts 9:39

St. Peter commands the dead Tabitha to arise ---> Acts 9:40

The dead Tabitha arrises and is presented to her family ---> Acts 9:41



Were Jesus and St. Peter wrong to speak to the dead?
 
M

MarysSon

Active Member
canadyjd said:
Jesus is God. He wasn’t guilty of sin when talking to Moses and Elijah. He was transfigured into His glory when He did so.
Jesus and Peter spoke to people that had already been raised from the dead, so they weren’t offering prayers to those that had died. Peter prayed to God to raise Tabitha, not a saint or angel.

peace to you
Click to expand...
WRONG.

Jesus spoke to Lazarus when he was DEAD.
Peter spoke to Tabitha when she was DEAD.

If necromancy is simply "speaking to" the dead - then they are BOTH guilty . . .
 
Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Walpole said:
Both Lazarus and Tabitha were most certainly physically dead. Regarding Lazarus, St. John provides an awful lot of detail to make it explicit that at Jesus' words, the dead Lazarus arose. He is clear that Lazarus was physically dead before the words our Blessed Lord spoke to him...

Jesus explicitly tells the disciples Lazarus is most assuredly dead. ---> John 11:14

When Jesus arrives in Bethany, Lazarus had been dead and in the grave for four days. ---> John 11:17

Martha warns Jesus that because he had been dead for four days, if He opens the grave, he will stinketh. ---> John 11:39

Jesus commands the dead Lazarus to come forth. ---> John 11:43

The dead Lazarus comes forth AFTER our Lord's command. ---> John 11:44

The risen Lazarus is still covered in his burial clothes, which Jesus then orders to have removed. ---> John 11:44



Regarding Tabitha at Joppa, St. Luke too provides details to make it explicit that at St. Peter's words, the dead Tabitha arose. He is clear that Tabitha was physically dead before the words St. Peter spoke to her...

Tabitha was sick and died ---> Acts 9:37

When St. Peter arrives, he is brought to the grieving family of Tabitha ---> Acts 9:39

St. Peter commands the dead Tabitha to arise ---> Acts 9:40

The dead Tabitha arrises and is presented to her family ---> Acts 9:41



Were Jesus and St. Peter wrong to speak to the dead?
Click to expand...
They were living at end of story correct?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top