Oh good grief, the first part of the Hail Mary prayer comes directly from the scriptures, starting right from Luke 1:28. Are you saying that is idolatrous?
The second part is asking her to pray for us. So that is idolatrous too?
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Is Veneration of the Saints something that is allowed by God?
- Thread starter Hobie
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Oh good grief, the first part of the Hail Mary prayer comes directly from the scriptures, starting right from Luke 1:28. Are you saying that is idolatrous?
The second part is asking her to pray for us. So that is idolatrous too?
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
They were already risen from the dead when Jesus and Peter spoke to them. I haven’t denied they had been dead. Both Jesus and Peter prayed to God the Father. In John 11:41, (which you skipped over) Jesus thanks God the Father for hearing His prayer (not recorded) to raise Lazarus. Lazarus is already raised from the dead when they roll back the stone and Jesus calls to him to come out. Same with a Peter. Peter prays to God (again, you leave that part out), and then tells the now risen from the dead girl to get out of bed so her family can see her alive. They did not offer prayers to dead saints or angels. They only spoke to them after they had been raised from the dead.
(edited to clarify)
peace to you
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canadyjd
Well-Known Member
In psalm 148:3 (which you neglected to mention) David says, “Praise Him sun and moon; Praise Him all stars of light”
If David is “invoking” angels and saints in heaven, as you say, then to be consistent you must also say that in the very next verse David is “invoking” the sun, moon, and stars.
Your position makes David guilty of idolatry, because he “invoked” those things created (sun, moon, and stars). Your position cannot stand the most basic scrutiny of scriptural context.
If, however, David isn’t “invoking” anyone or anything, but simply singing a song that all of creation should (figuratively) sing praises to God, then David is giving praise glory and honor to God.
peace to you
WRONG.
John 11:43-44
When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” The DEAD MAN came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.
Lazarus was DEAD when Jesus spoke to him.
Acts 9:40
Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the DEAD WOMAN, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up.
Tabitha was DEAD when Peter spoke to her.
Go be dishonest somewhere else . . .
They were not dead though as in no ;longer in their physical bodies!
They were DEAD.
Their bodies were lifeless and brought back to life - and therein lie the miracles.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I’m not sure what bible version you are using. Mine does not say, “The DEAD MAN came out”. It says, “The man who had died came forth.”
If your version really says, “The DEAD MAN came out”, it would indicate he was still dead when he came out, maybe a zombie or something like it?
I notice you fail to mention that prior to calling for Lazarus to come out of the tomb, Jesus thanked God the Father for hearing His prayer. Certainly He was referring to His prayer to raise Lazarus from the dead.
Lazarus was already alive when Jesus called Him from the tomb.
peace to you
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Well, I’m not sure why you think I’ve been dishonest, but , as you request, I will avoid responding to you.
Thanks for the conversation.
peace to you
WRONG.
This is what Jesus said to the Father:
John 11:41-42
“Father, I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”
He DIDN'T say. "Raise Lazarus before I speak to him."
The ENTIRE miracle hinged on Jesus raising him from the dead.
I accused yo of being dishonest because you are misrepresenting Scripture which CLEARLY shows that Jesus raise up Lazarus - from the DEAD.
He didn't come to life before Jesus raised him
In Mark 5:35-43, we read the story f Jairus's DEAD daughter - to whom he said "Talitha koum" ("Little girl, get up!").
She was DEAD when He entered the room and he spoke to her and raised her from the DEAD.
This is NOT necromancy.
Necromancy is seeking oracles (information) - FROM the dead. It is NOT asking a saint in Heaven to pray FOR you.
Walpole
Well-Known Member
Thanks for your post.
David is invoking all of creation to David to praise its Creator. He starts with the higher order of creation - the angels and saints in heaven - then the lower order. Our Blessed Lord also affirms all creation gives glory to God...
"Truly I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them." (Mark 11:23) And again, "I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out." (Luke 19:40)
According to your previous assertion, David's prayer to the saints in heaven, which is what we were discussing, is sinful.
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canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I’ve not stated David was praying to the saints. You have stated David was praying to the saints. I pointed out that David used the same language to urge the “sun, moon, and stars” to praise God. That makes your position precarious at best, because if David is praying to saints in verses 1-2, the he must be praying to the “sun, moon, and stars” in verse 3 since he uses the same language.
I’ve stated David was singing a song (psalm) of praise and the language is figurative, which seems obvious to me in context.
peace to you
Hobie
Well-Known Member
You can see that David praised Gods for His 'mighty acts' and the heavens in many places....
Psalm 150:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
1 Praise ye the Lord. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.
2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.
That does not say or mean to worship the dead or pray to 'saints'.
Psalm 150:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
1 Praise ye the Lord. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.
2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.
That does not say or mean to worship the dead or pray to 'saints'.
I would say that asking those in Heaven to pray for us IS Biblical.
In EVERY debate I've had with Sola Scriptura-adhering Protestants about Mary's sinlessness - they have thrown the following verses at me:
Rom. 3:10
There is none righteous, no, not one.
Rom. 3:23
"... for ALL have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God.
HOWEVER - those in Heaven ARE righteous because they have been made perfect in Christ.
Rev. 21:27 tells us that NOTHING imperfect can enter Heaven.
In James 5:16, he tells his readers to "pray for one another" - and that the prayers the a righteous person are very powerful.
Now - if those in Heaven are the ONLY ones that are truly righteous - per Sola Scriptura - then asking a saint in Heaven to pray for you is not only perfectly acceptable - it is ADVISED by James.
YOUR turn . . .
I am right now in sight of God as righteous as Mary, and the Apostles, and we are commanded to ONLY pray and seek God!
Soooooo, let me get this straight.
Are you saying that YOU are righteous - or that you are "covered" in the righteousness of Christ.
I eagerly await your response.
I'm always fascinated at witnessing the birth of a new splinter group within a Protestant denomination . . .
God Himself imputed to me the very righteousness of Jesus, and declared me as being a saint now in Christ!
Hobie
Well-Known Member
This 'veneration of the saints' is nothing but the old pagan worship of the dead, hidden with the names of dead men and women, but still from paganism not God. Here is something I came across on the issue..
"To judge by the accounts we possess not only of savage and barbarous tribes but of some highly civilised peoples, the worship of the human dead has been one of the commonest and most influential forms of natural religion, [pg 24] perhaps indeed the commonest and most influential of all. Obviously it rests on the supposition that the human personality in some form, whether we call it a soul, a spirit, a ghost, or what not, can survive death and thereafter continue for a longer or shorter time to exercise great power for good or evil over the destinies of the living, who are therefore compelled to propitiate the shades of the dead out of a regard for their own safety and well-being. This belief in the survival of the human spirit after death is world-wide; it is found among men in all stages of culture from the lowest to the highest; we need not wonder therefore that the custom of propitiating the ghosts or souls of the departed should be world-wide also. No doubt the degree of attention paid to ghosts is not the same in all cases; it varies with the particular degree of power attributed to each of them; the spirits of men who for any reason were much feared in their lifetime, such as mighty warriors, chiefs, and kings, are more revered and receive far more marks of homage than the spirits of common men; and it is only when this reverence and homage are carried to a very high pitch that they can properly be described as a deification of the dead. But that dead men have thus been raised to the rank of deities in many lands, there is abundant evidence to prove. And quite apart from the worship paid to those spirits which are admitted by their worshippers to have once animated the bodies of living men, there is good reason to suspect that many gods, who rank as purely mythical beings, were once men of flesh and blood, though their true history has passed out of memory or rather been transformed by legend into a myth, which veils more or less completely the real character of the imaginary deity. The theory that most or all gods originated after this fashion, in other words, that the worship of the gods is little or nothing but the worship of dead men, is known as Euhemerism from Euhemerus, the ancient Greek writer who propounded it. Regarded as a universal explanation of the belief in gods it is certainly false; regarded as a partial explanation of the belief it is unquestionably true; and perhaps we may even go further and say, that the more we penetrate into the inner history of natural religion, [pg 25] the larger is seen to be the element of truth contained in Euhemerism. For the more closely we look at many deities of natural religion, the more distinctly do we seem to perceive, under the quaint or splendid pall which the mythical fancy has wrapt round their stately figures, the familiar features of real men, who once shared the common joys and the common sorrows of humanity, who trod life's common road to the common end."...The Belief in Immortality and the Worship of the Dead, Volume 1 (of 3) by Frazer
A good explanation of how it traces back to Babylon is given in "The Worship Of The Dead Or The Origin And Nature Of Pagan Idolatry And Its Bearing Upon The Early History Of Egypt And Babylonia"
https://www.amazon.com/Worship-Dead-Idolatry-Bearing-Babylonia/dp/1331981697
And more..
"CHARACTERISTIC 2 – Idolatry
9. How was Babylon’s rebellion against the true God revealed? Ezekiel 6:4
Answer: And I will cast down your slain men before your idols.
Modern Babylon is a system of religion that uses idols in its worship. Its statues, images, and religious icons revive the idolatry of ancient Babylon. Any system that incorporates images into its worship service is part of spiritual Babylon.
10. What clear, obvious command had God given His people? Exodus 20:4, 5
Answer: Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image…thou shalt not bow down thyself to them
CHARACTERISTIC 3 – Immortality/Ancestor Worship
11. What was the ancient Babylonian concept of death? In Ezekiel 8:14 whom were the Jewish women weeping for?
Answer: There sat women weeping for Tamuz.
Tamuz, the god of vegetation, was one of the many deities of Babylon. The Babylonians believed that in the winter, Tammuz died. In the season of abundant crops, they believed, he lived again. This worship of the dead was common in Babylon. The concept of the immortal soul was at the heart of Babylonian worship. The thought that the soul leaves the body at death comes directly from paganism...."
https://www.itiswritten.com/search-...23-the-mystery-of-spiritual-babylon-revealed/
"To judge by the accounts we possess not only of savage and barbarous tribes but of some highly civilised peoples, the worship of the human dead has been one of the commonest and most influential forms of natural religion, [pg 24] perhaps indeed the commonest and most influential of all. Obviously it rests on the supposition that the human personality in some form, whether we call it a soul, a spirit, a ghost, or what not, can survive death and thereafter continue for a longer or shorter time to exercise great power for good or evil over the destinies of the living, who are therefore compelled to propitiate the shades of the dead out of a regard for their own safety and well-being. This belief in the survival of the human spirit after death is world-wide; it is found among men in all stages of culture from the lowest to the highest; we need not wonder therefore that the custom of propitiating the ghosts or souls of the departed should be world-wide also. No doubt the degree of attention paid to ghosts is not the same in all cases; it varies with the particular degree of power attributed to each of them; the spirits of men who for any reason were much feared in their lifetime, such as mighty warriors, chiefs, and kings, are more revered and receive far more marks of homage than the spirits of common men; and it is only when this reverence and homage are carried to a very high pitch that they can properly be described as a deification of the dead. But that dead men have thus been raised to the rank of deities in many lands, there is abundant evidence to prove. And quite apart from the worship paid to those spirits which are admitted by their worshippers to have once animated the bodies of living men, there is good reason to suspect that many gods, who rank as purely mythical beings, were once men of flesh and blood, though their true history has passed out of memory or rather been transformed by legend into a myth, which veils more or less completely the real character of the imaginary deity. The theory that most or all gods originated after this fashion, in other words, that the worship of the gods is little or nothing but the worship of dead men, is known as Euhemerism from Euhemerus, the ancient Greek writer who propounded it. Regarded as a universal explanation of the belief in gods it is certainly false; regarded as a partial explanation of the belief it is unquestionably true; and perhaps we may even go further and say, that the more we penetrate into the inner history of natural religion, [pg 25] the larger is seen to be the element of truth contained in Euhemerism. For the more closely we look at many deities of natural religion, the more distinctly do we seem to perceive, under the quaint or splendid pall which the mythical fancy has wrapt round their stately figures, the familiar features of real men, who once shared the common joys and the common sorrows of humanity, who trod life's common road to the common end."...The Belief in Immortality and the Worship of the Dead, Volume 1 (of 3) by Frazer
A good explanation of how it traces back to Babylon is given in "The Worship Of The Dead Or The Origin And Nature Of Pagan Idolatry And Its Bearing Upon The Early History Of Egypt And Babylonia"
https://www.amazon.com/Worship-Dead-Idolatry-Bearing-Babylonia/dp/1331981697
And more..
"CHARACTERISTIC 2 – Idolatry
9. How was Babylon’s rebellion against the true God revealed? Ezekiel 6:4
Answer: And I will cast down your slain men before your idols.
Modern Babylon is a system of religion that uses idols in its worship. Its statues, images, and religious icons revive the idolatry of ancient Babylon. Any system that incorporates images into its worship service is part of spiritual Babylon.
10. What clear, obvious command had God given His people? Exodus 20:4, 5
Answer: Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image…thou shalt not bow down thyself to them
CHARACTERISTIC 3 – Immortality/Ancestor Worship
11. What was the ancient Babylonian concept of death? In Ezekiel 8:14 whom were the Jewish women weeping for?
Answer: There sat women weeping for Tamuz.
Tamuz, the god of vegetation, was one of the many deities of Babylon. The Babylonians believed that in the winter, Tammuz died. In the season of abundant crops, they believed, he lived again. This worship of the dead was common in Babylon. The concept of the immortal soul was at the heart of Babylonian worship. The thought that the soul leaves the body at death comes directly from paganism...."
https://www.itiswritten.com/search-...23-the-mystery-of-spiritual-babylon-revealed/
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The article is false based on it's very title that says: "The belief in immortality and Worship of the dead". There is no "worship" involved here, that belongs to God and God alone - that is our belief and the teaching of the Holy Church.
Now, since you have been duly informed of the truth, from this point on if you continue with that charge you are guilty of false witness, a serious violation of one of Gods commandments.
Now, since you have been duly informed of the truth, from this point on if you continue with that charge you are guilty of false witness, a serious violation of one of Gods commandments.
Hobie
Well-Known Member
ven·er·a·tion
(vĕn′ə-rā′shən)
n.
1. A feeling of profound respect or reverence: an object held in veneration. See Synonyms at honor.
2. The act of venerating: displayed their veneration of the saint with a procession.
ven′er·a′tion·al adj.
American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition. Copyright © 2016 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.
veneration
(ˌvɛnəˈreɪʃən)
n
1. a feeling or expression of awe or reverence
2. the act of venerating or the state of being venerated
ˌvenerˈational adj
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged, 12th Edition 2014 © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2011, 2014
ven•er•a•tion
(ˌvɛn əˈreɪ ʃən)
n.
1. the act of venerating or the state of being venerated.
2. the feeling of a person who venerates.
3. an expression of this feeling.
[1400–50; late Middle English < Latin]
Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.
ThesaurusAntonymsRelated WordsSynonymsLegend:
Switch to new thesaurus
Noun 1. veneration - a feeling of profound respect for someone or something; "the fear of God"; "the Chinese reverence for the dead"; "the French treat food with gentle reverence"; "his respect for the law bordered on veneration"
reverence, awe, fear
emotion - any strong feeling
2. veneration - religious zeal; the willingness to serve God
idolatry, cultism, devotion
worship - the activity of worshipping
Bible-worship, bibliolatry - the worship of the Bible
grammatolatry, verbolatry, word-worship - the worship of words
symbolatry, symbololatry, symbol-worship - the worship of symbols
anthropolatry, worship of man - the worship of human beings
gynaeolatry, gyneolatry, woman-worship - the worship of women
lordolatry - the worship of a lord because of his rank or title
miracle-worship, thaumatolatry - the worship of miracles
place-worship, topolatry - the worship of places
I think everyone can see what this is....
(vĕn′ə-rā′shən)
n.
1. A feeling of profound respect or reverence: an object held in veneration. See Synonyms at honor.
2. The act of venerating: displayed their veneration of the saint with a procession.
ven′er·a′tion·al adj.
American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition. Copyright © 2016 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.
veneration
(ˌvɛnəˈreɪʃən)
n
1. a feeling or expression of awe or reverence
2. the act of venerating or the state of being venerated
ˌvenerˈational adj
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged, 12th Edition 2014 © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2011, 2014
ven•er•a•tion
(ˌvɛn əˈreɪ ʃən)
n.
1. the act of venerating or the state of being venerated.
2. the feeling of a person who venerates.
3. an expression of this feeling.
[1400–50; late Middle English < Latin]
Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.
ThesaurusAntonymsRelated WordsSynonymsLegend:
Switch to new thesaurus
Noun 1. veneration - a feeling of profound respect for someone or something; "the fear of God"; "the Chinese reverence for the dead"; "the French treat food with gentle reverence"; "his respect for the law bordered on veneration"
reverence, awe, fear
emotion - any strong feeling
2. veneration - religious zeal; the willingness to serve God
idolatry, cultism, devotion
worship - the activity of worshipping
Bible-worship, bibliolatry - the worship of the Bible
grammatolatry, verbolatry, word-worship - the worship of words
symbolatry, symbololatry, symbol-worship - the worship of symbols
anthropolatry, worship of man - the worship of human beings
gynaeolatry, gyneolatry, woman-worship - the worship of women
lordolatry - the worship of a lord because of his rank or title
miracle-worship, thaumatolatry - the worship of miracles
place-worship, topolatry - the worship of places
I think everyone can see what this is....
- Status