Is Veneration of the Saints something that is allowed by God?

Oh good grief, the first part of the Hail Mary prayer comes directly from the scriptures, starting right from Luke 1:28. Are you saying that is idolatrous?

The second part is asking her to pray for us. So that is idolatrous too?

 

They were already risen from the dead when Jesus and Peter spoke to them. I haven’t denied they had been dead. Both Jesus and Peter prayed to God the Father. In John 11:41, (which you skipped over) Jesus thanks God the Father for hearing His prayer (not recorded) to raise Lazarus. Lazarus is already raised from the dead when they roll back the stone and Jesus calls to him to come out. Same with a Peter. Peter prays to God (again, you leave that part out), and then tells the now risen from the dead girl to get out of bed so her family can see her alive. They did not offer prayers to dead saints or angels. They only spoke to them after they had been raised from the dead.

(edited to clarify)
peace to you

 

In psalm 148:3 (which you neglected to mention) David says, “Praise Him sun and moon; Praise Him all stars of light”

If David is “invoking” angels and saints in heaven, as you say, then to be consistent you must also say that in the very next verse David is “invoking” the sun, moon, and stars.

Your position makes David guilty of idolatry, because he “invoked” those things created (sun, moon, and stars). Your position cannot stand the most basic scrutiny of scriptural context.

If, however, David isn’t “invoking” anyone or anything, but simply singing a song that all of creation should (figuratively) sing praises to God, then David is giving praise glory and honor to God.

peace to you

 

WRONG.

John 11:43-44
When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” The DEAD MAN came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.

Lazarus was DEAD when Jesus spoke to him.


Acts 9:40
Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the DEAD WOMAN, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up.

Tabitha was DEAD when Peter spoke to her.

Go be dishonest somewhere else . . .

 

They were not dead though as in no ;longer in their physical bodies!

 

They were DEAD.
Their bodies were lifeless and brought back to life - and therein lie the miracles.

 

I’m not sure what bible version you are using. Mine does not say, “The DEAD MAN came out”. It says, “The man who had died came forth.”

If your version really says, “The DEAD MAN came out”, it would indicate he was still dead when he came out, maybe a zombie or something like it?

I notice you fail to mention that prior to calling for Lazarus to come out of the tomb, Jesus thanked God the Father for hearing His prayer. Certainly He was referring to His prayer to raise Lazarus from the dead.

Lazarus was already alive when Jesus called Him from the tomb.

peace to you

 

Well, I’m not sure why you think I’ve been dishonest, but , as you request, I will avoid responding to you.

Thanks for the conversation.

peace to you

 

WRONG.

This is what Jesus said to the Father:
John 11:41-42
“Father, I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”

He DIDN'T say. "Raise Lazarus before I speak to him."

The ENTIRE miracle hinged on Jesus raising him from the dead.

 

I accused yo of being dishonest because you are misrepresenting Scripture which CLEARLY shows that Jesus raise up Lazarus - from the DEAD.
He didn't come to life before Jesus raised him

In Mark 5:35-43, we read the story f Jairus's DEAD daughter - to whom he said "Talitha koum" ("Little girl, get up!").
She was DEAD when He entered the room and he spoke to her and raised her from the DEAD.

This is NOT necromancy.
Necromancy is seeking oracles (information) - FROM the dead. It is NOT asking a saint in Heaven to pray FOR you.

 

Thanks for your post.

David is invoking all of creation to David to praise its Creator. He starts with the higher order of creation - the angels and saints in heaven - then the lower order. Our Blessed Lord also affirms all creation gives glory to God...

"Truly I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them." (Mark 11:23) And again, "I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out." (Luke 19:40)

According to your previous assertion, David's prayer to the saints in heaven, which is what we were discussing, is sinful.

 

I’ve not stated David was praying to the saints. You have stated David was praying to the saints. I pointed out that David used the same language to urge the “sun, moon, and stars” to praise God. That makes your position precarious at best, because if David is praying to saints in verses 1-2, the he must be praying to the “sun, moon, and stars” in verse 3 since he uses the same language.

I’ve stated David was singing a song (psalm) of praise and the language is figurative, which seems obvious to me in context.

peace to you

 

I would say that asking those in Heaven to pray for us IS Biblical.

In EVERY debate I've had with Sola Scriptura-adhering Protestants about Mary's sinlessness - they have thrown the following verses at me:
Rom. 3:10
There is none righteous, no, not one.

Rom. 3:23
"... for ALL have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God.

HOWEVER - those in Heaven ARE righteous because they have been made perfect in Christ.
Rev. 21:27 tells us that NOTHING imperfect can enter Heaven.

In James 5:16, he tells his readers to "pray for one another" - and that the prayers the a righteous person are very powerful.

Now - if those in Heaven are the ONLY ones that are truly righteous - per Sola Scriptura - then asking a saint in Heaven to pray for you is not only perfectly acceptable - it is ADVISED by James.

YOUR turn . . .

 

I am right now in sight of God as righteous as Mary, and the Apostles, and we are commanded to ONLY pray and seek God!

 

Soooooo, let me get this straight.
Are you saying that YOU are righteous - or that you are "covered" in the righteousness of Christ.

I eagerly await your response.
I'm always fascinated at witnessing the birth of a new splinter group within a Protestant denomination . . .

 

God Himself imputed to me the very righteousness of Jesus, and declared me as being a saint now in Christ!

 

The article is false based on it's very title that says: "The belief in immortality and Worship of the dead". There is no "worship" involved here, that belongs to God and God alone - that is our belief and the teaching of the Holy Church.

Now, since you have been duly informed of the truth, from this point on if you continue with that charge you are guilty of false witness, a serious violation of one of Gods commandments.