Was Bible possesion banned by the Catholic Church?

[37818]

we must eat His FLESH and drink His BLOOD in order to have life with us (John 6:53).

Which means to believe in Him as the true manna from Heaven, John 6:58. Jesus explained, John 6:35, ". . . , I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. . . ." And in John 6:47, ". . . Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. . . ." Jesus further explained, John 6:63, ". . . It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. . . ." Peter understood, John 6:68, ". . . Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life." Genuine Christians have Christ, 1 John 5:12, and know they have eternal life by believing in Him, 1 John 5:13. 1 John 5:1, says, "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . ." And so also know God, John 17:3, having now eternal life through belief in His Son.

 

[37818]

Wrong.

The Eucharist is at the center of the Christian faith:
1 Cor. 11:23-26
For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you,k that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, 24 and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.

This corresponds with the Bread of Life Discourse in John 6, where Jesus was emphatic about the fact that we must eat His FLESH and drink His BLOOD in order to have life with us (John 6:53). Interestingly - He doesn't use the usual word for human eating (Phago). He uses the word for the way an animal gnaws and rips apart his food (Trogo). He uses this hyperbole in order to make His point that His flesh is TRUE FOOD and His blood is TRUE DRINK (John 6:55).

Just as the Jews were required to consume the Passover Lamb - it is also true for Christians that we must consume the Lamb of GOD. This is why we read people like 1st century Bishop of Antioch, St. Ignatius who wrote:
Ignatius of Antioch
Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1 [A.D. 110]).

This was the UNANIMOUS belief and teaching of the Early Church. Not "most" believed it - but ALL believed it.
It didn't change until the Protestant Revolt in the 16th century . . .

All revelation is the revelation of Jesus Christ, Luke 24:44, Revelation 19:10. And the giving of the revelation called the Revelation of Jesus Christ, Revelation 1:1-3 brought all other claims of revelation to an end saying, Revaltion 22:18, ". . . For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, . . ."

 

[MarysSon]

That the New Testament (those 27 books) are the sole Apostolic authority for Christianity are in evidence.

The New Testament is the sole Apostlic succession of any kind.

Then the onus is on YOU to show me where the Bible itself makes this claim.
As a Sola Scripturist - you are bound by Scripture ALONE to prove every claim you make about Christ or His Church.

You see - MY Bible states repeatedly - and emphatically that the CHURCH is the Final earthly Authority and NOT Scripture alone.

In Matt. 16:19 and Matt. 18:15-18, Christ gives His Church SUPREME Authority - that WHATEVER it binds or losses on earth shall also be bound and loosed in Heaven. He gives Peter the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt. 16:18).

In Luke 10:16, Christ again give His Church final earthly Authority when He tells its leaders that whoever listens to or rejects the Church - listens to or rejects HIM and the ONE who sent Him.

At the Last Supper (John 16:12-16) - Jesus guarantees the leaders of His Church that they will be led to ALL Truth by the Holy Spirit.

Finally - after His Resurrection (John 20:21-23) - Christ gives the leaders of His Church the power to forgive or retain sins in His name.

I eagerly await your response and the Scriptural proof YOU have for Sola Scriptura . . .

 

[MarysSon]

All revelation is the revelation of Jesus Christ, Luke 24:44, Revelation 19:10. And the giving of the revelation called the Revelation of Jesus Christ, Revelation 1:1-3 brought all other claims of revelation to an end saying, Revaltion 22:18, ". . . For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, . . ."

NONE of this nullifies the fact that the Eucharist is at the center of the Christian faith:

 

[MarysSon]

Which means to believe in Him as the true manna from Heaven, John 6:58. Jesus explained, John 6:35, ". . . , I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. . . ." And in John 6:47, ". . . Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. . . ." Jesus further explained, John 6:63, ". . . It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. . . ." Peter understood, John 6:68, ". . . Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life." Genuine Christians have Christ, 1 John 5:12, and know they have eternal life by believing in Him, 1 John 5:13. 1 John 5:1, says, "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . ." And so also know God, John 17:3, having now eternal life through belief in His Son.

John 6:63
"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

YOUR mistake is that you actually believe that Jesus is talking about HIS flesh here - and that HIS flesh avails "nothing".
Jesus' flesh and blood avails us EVERYTHING, as it was the sacrifice of His flesh that paid for the SINS of the world.

To properly understand this verse - you need to look at ALL of the verses leading up to it. Jesus was telling an UNBELIEVING crown that they need to eat (trogo) His flesh and drink His blood in order to have Life. He went onto say that His flesh was TRUE FOOD and His blood was TRUE DRINK (John 6:55). He told the crowd: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day" (John 6:44).

By the time we get to verse 63 - the crown is just about ready to walk away from Him. THIS is where He tells them that they are thinking with fleshly human logic instead of spiritual logic from above. Christ was trying to
He wasn't telling the crowd that HIS FLESH didn't profit them.
He was telling them that their FLESHLY THINKING didn't profit them.

THIS is why He says right after this:
John 6:64-65
"But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

This truth had not yet been revealed to them by the Father, so they could ONLY use their fleshly minds to discern it.

As we know - in the very next verse (John 6:66) - they abandoned Him and returned to their former way of life.
Did Jesus try to stop them to say, "Hey - I was just speaking metaphorically! Let me explain!"

NO. He turns to the Twelve and says: "Do you ALSO want to leave?" (John 6:67).
Peter speaks for ALL of them when he responds with. "Master, to whom shall we go. You have the words of eternal life" (John 6:68).

They didn't quite understand either - but they TRUSTED in Him.
MOST of His followers abandoned him that day for the SAME reasons YOU are arguing because they leaned on their OWN understanding instead of relying on God's (Prov. 3:5-6).

 

[37818]

You see - MY Bible states repeatedly - and emphatically that the CHURCH is the Final earthly Authority and NOT Scripture alone.

Where? Do you know the difference between what a text says and interpreation of a text?

 

[37818]

I eagerly await your response and the Scriptural proof YOU have for Sola Scriptura . . .

There is no Apostolic authroity other than the New Testament documents.

 

[37818]

NONE of this nullifies the fact that the Eucharist is at the center of the Christian faith:

At best that is an interpretation based on the sole Apostolic authority - which are solely the New Testament documents.

 

[MarysSon]

Where? Do you know the difference between what a text says and interpreation of a text?

WHERE??

I gave you a list of verses - with explanations of each. Go back and read my post instead of pretending that I didn't explain it to you. Here they are again for your edification:

In Matt. 16:19 and Matt. 18:15-18, Christ gives His Church SUPREME Authority - that WHATEVER it binds or losses on earth shall also be bound and loosed in Heaven. He gives Peter the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt. 16:18).

In Luke 10:16, Christ again give His Church final earthly Authority when He tells its leaders that whoever listens to or rejects the Church - listens to or rejects HIM and the ONE who sent Him.

At the Last Supper (John 16:12-16) - Jesus guarantees the leaders of His Church that they will be led to ALL Truth by the Holy Spirit.

Finally - after His Resurrection (John 20:21-23) - Christ gives the leaders of His Church the power to forgive or retain sins in His name.

NOWHERE do we see Christ giving any other source this same final Authority.

 

[MarysSon]

There is no Apostolic authroity other than the New Testament documents.

This is a non-answer.

I gave you a fairly comprehensive Scriptural explanation for the Catholic position.
Now, give me the Scriptural explanation for YOUR position . . .

 

[37818]

John 6:63
"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

YOUR mistake is that you actually believe that Jesus is talking about HIS flesh here - and that HIS flesh avails "nothing".
Jesus' flesh and blood avails us EVERYTHING, as it was the sacrifice of His flesh that paid for the SINS of the world.

To properly understand this verse - you need to look at ALL of the verses leading up to it. Jesus was telling an UNBELIEVING crown that they need to eat (trogo) His flesh and drink His blood in order to have Life. He went onto say that His flesh was TRUE FOOD and His blood was TRUE DRINK (John 6:55). He told the crowd: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day" (John 6:44).

By the time we get to verse 63 - the crown is just about ready to walk away from Him. THIS is where He tells them that they are thinking with fleshly human logic instead of spiritual logic from above. Christ was trying to
He wasn't telling the crowd that HIS FLESH didn't profit them.
He was telling them that their FLESHLY THINKING didn't profit them.

THIS is why He says right after this:
John 6:64-65
"But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

This truth had not yet been revealed to them by the Father, so they could ONLY use their fleshly minds to discern it.

As we know - in the very next verse (John 6:66) - they abandoned Him and returned to their former way of life.
Did Jesus try to stop them to say, "Hey - I was just speaking metaphorically! Let me explain!"

NO. He turns to the Twelve and says: "Do you ALSO want to leave?" (John 6:67).
Peter speaks for ALL of them when he responds with. "Master, to whom shall we go. You have the words of eternal life" (John 6:68).

They didn't quite understand either - but they TRUSTED in Him.
MOST of His followers abandoned him that day for the SAME reasons YOU are arguing because they leaned on their OWN understanding instead of relying on God's (Prov. 3:5-6).

You are reliant on your physical church to maintain some kind of hope of eternal life.

Genuine Christians have this certainty:
1 John 5:11-13, ". . . And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. . . ."

1 John 5:1, "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . ."

 

[MarysSon]

At best that is an interpretation based on the sole Apostolic authority - which are solely the New Testament documents.

And you have YET to prove this.

On the other hand - I HAVE proven that Scripture is NOT our "sole" Authority.

 

[MarysSon]

You are reliant on your physical church to maintain some kind of hope of eternal life.

Genuine Christians have this certainty:
1 John 5:11-13, ". . . And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. . . ."

1 John 5:1, "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . ."

I couldn't agree more with the Scriptures you posted.
NOW - let's see what the BIBLE defines as "belief" in Christ . . .

- Being baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Rom. 6:1-11, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)
- Picking up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)
- Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)
- Obeying his commandments (John 14:15, 15:10)
- Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21, James 1:22)
- Suffering with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2)

You see - the Bible tells us that if ALL you do is "believe" - then you are NO better off than the demons, who also believe in the truths about God (James 5:16).

 

[37818]

This is a non-answer.

I gave you a fairly comprehensive Scriptural explanation for the Catholic position.
Now, give me the Scriptural explanation for YOUR position . . .

Silly. You are asking me to appeal to what I so stated are the sole Apostolic authroity. How did your appealing to said documents prove they are not the sole authroity?

 

[37818]

You see - the Bible tells us that if ALL you do is "believe" - then you are NO better off than the demons, who also believe in the truths about God (James 5:16).

The demons knew God, Jude 1:6; Matthew 25:41. But the salvation was made for man not the demons.

The differnce between perishinng and having eternity with God and His Christ is keeping one's name in His book, Exodus 32:33, Daniel 12:1, Revelation 20:15. 1 John 5:4-5; Revelation 3:5; Revelation 21:7; Romans 8:16; 1 John 5:9-10.

 

[37818]

I gave you a list of verses - . . .

And a rant of interpretations.

We can go back and forth doing just that. You trust in the on going rite of the mass of your phycical church. I believe Jesus is my eternal life and so actually know Him, 1 John 5:12; Romans 8:16. Knowing God through Christ, John 17:3. I know your interprtation is a false hope. I know what I have.

Now if you want to pick one point of disagreement and deal with it. We can compare how we interpet a passage of Scripture differently. At least be able to know why we disagree, at the very least. We know we disagree.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 4:35 PM Pacific.

 

[MarysSon]

The demons knew God, Jude 1:6; Matthew 25:41. But the salvation was made for man not the demons.

The differnce between perishinng and having eternity with God and His Christ is keeping one's name in His book, Exodus 32:33, Daniel 12:1, Revelation 20:15. 1 John 5:4-5; Revelation 3:5; Revelation 21:7; Romans 8:16; 1 John 5:9-10.

You completely missed the point James was making about the demons - and what constitutes FAITH as opposed to mere "belief".

James made the comparison to the demons and "belief" (James 2:19) to show that faith is MUCH more than that.
True faith = Belief + Works (obedience).
He goes onto explain that you cannot have one element and still have true faith (James 2:14-26).

 

[MarysSon]

And a rant of interpretations.

We can go back and forth doing just that. You trust in the on going rite of the mass of your phycical church. I believe Jesus is my eternal life and so actually know Him, 1 John 5:12; Romans 8:16. Knowing God through Christ, John 17:3. I know your interprtation is a false hope. I know what I have.

Now if you want to pick one point of disagreement and deal with it. We can compare how we interpet a passage of Scripture differently. At least be able to know why we disagree, at the very least. We know we disagree.

Once again - you fail to understand just WHAT Christ's Church is.

It is NOT some "invisible" gaggle of disjointed and perpetually-splintering sects that ALL teach different doctrines.
Christ said: that HIS Church was "... the light of the world - a city set on a hill that cannot be hidden" (Matt. 5:14).

- Christ's Church is a VISIBLE entity on earth.
- It is the Body of Christ and He is the Head (1 Cor. 12:12-31, Eph. 4:3-6, Col. 1:8).
- Jesus is Truth itself (John 14:6).
- Jesus promised His Church that the Holy Spirit would guide her to ALL Truth (John 16:12-15).
- Jesus told the leaders of His Church that WHATEVER they bound or loosed on earth would ALSO be bound and loosed in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, John 20:21-23).
- The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
- The Church is the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).
- Jesus identifies His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5).

 

[MarysSon]

Silly. You are asking me to appeal to what I so stated are the sole Apostolic authroity. How did your appealing to said documents prove they are not the sole authroity?

Because those very documents that YOU claim are our "SOLE" Authority insist that Christ's CHURCH is our final earthly Authority (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 8:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

You STILL haven't shown me where the Bible states that the BIBLE is our "sole" Authority . . .