Featured Who are the 'elders' and 'four beasts' of Revelation 5:8?

Who are the 'elders' and 'four beasts' of Revelation 5:8?

A statement was made in another thread (recently closed) which stated:

This has brought about this thread and question.

In a full study of Revelation 5:8 (in context) there are no beings of mankind present, but only the "elders" (aka Ancients (Isaiah 24:23), leaders or Heavenly High counsel of the unfallen worlds (Luke 15:4-6; Revelation 12:12)) and the "four beasts" (representing all the beings from the unfallen worlds). They are acting as 'priests' in the Heavenly Sanctuary, as the angels ascend with the prayers of the saints (2 Chronicles 30:27; Psalms 6:9, 30:8, 66:19, 119:170; Daniel 9:20-23; Matthew 18:10; Luke 1:13; Acts 10:31, etc) unto them, presenting them to the Great High Priest, Jesus Christ, who presents them before the Father in His righteousness (Revelation 8:3-4).

The only beings of Mankind that are in heaven at that time are Enoch, Moses, Elijah, Firstfruits and Jesus, none of which are the 'elders' or 'four beasts'.

 

Quick question, Are you (Sai) a "Jehovah's Witness" (a member of the WTS), or a "Bible Student", or related thereto, as the theology just expounded is very much rooted in that system. I am just curious. No fear of telling me, as I am only interested in truth. I must disagree with the picture you provided and the tagline that came with it on several scriptural (KJB) reasons, which, if you are interested in, we may study together.

 

You might be interested in the following:

The Feasts Of The LORD (JEHOVAH) - http://sdamaranathachurch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/The-Feasts-Of-The-LORD.pptx

Feasts Chart Image - https://i2.wp.com/sdamaranathachurc...s/2019/03/AWHN-Bible-7-Feasts-Of-The-LORD.jpg

Revelation 12 Line By Line Study - http://sdamaranathachurch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Revelation-12-–-The-Great-Controversy.pptx

Daniel 7 & Revelation 13 Comparison - http://sdamaranathachurch.org/wp-co...-Revelation-13-language-and-time-parallel.pdf

7000 Years - http://sdamaranathachurch.org/wp-co...on-7000-Years-And-The-Everlasting-Gospel.pptx

7000 Years Chart Image - https://i1.wp.com/sdamaranathachurch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/AWHN-Bible-7000-Years.jpg

Daniel & Revelation & The Sanctuary Structure Comparison Line By Line - http://sdamaranathachurch.org/wp-co...-Revelation-compared-7-Branch-Candlestick.pdf

Daniel & Revelation & Creation & Redemption Chart Image - https://i0.wp.com/sdamaranathachurc...7-Vs-13-Thy-Way-O-God-Is-In-The-Sanctuary.jpg

Prophecy Overall From Eternity past to Eternity Future Chart Image - https://i0.wp.com/sdamaranathachurc...phecy-of-Daniel-8-Vs-14-And-Its-Sub-Parts.jpg

Also, this series may be of some help also -

 

Malo. Won't know until you look. Look at the structure one at least.

 

Agreed and also ch. 10 (Ez.).

 

Googled your name, some interesting results come up (Navy, TN (USA), Mike, Tamera (HI, USA), etc)). Is that you, or another, just curious.

 

Not at all. For many before her taught it as given from the scriptures (citations upon request), and most of the ECF (that you claim to believe, about 2/3's) were conditionalists (I can cite these also).

Not according to those whom I can cite, all before sister White, including the Apostles themselves in the NT, and the Prophets themselves of the OT. Just say that you are interested in this, and they shall be given.

None that I am aware of, and I have done a thorough study of all the scripture. But, this thread focuses on the 24 elders and 4 beasts, please. Start a new thread and I would be glad to discuss it there in magnified detail.

Is this your best?

Not at all, since you went to a Symbolic Book, filled with Symbols, that represent things. For instance, you do realize that the Seal you have mentioned is the 5th Seal, and it follows the First four seals with Horses and riders jumping out of a scroll? Let's look a little closer, shall we? I do hope you are interested in hearing another consideration, to be sure of the position you are taking.

Not at all, let's consider, in just a moment:

 

As I have shown in the OP, they are not mankind. They existed before even this world was created.

Now, let's consider the 5th Seal.

Should we have to go over the first four "Seals" to understand they are given in Symbols, that we might understand earthly events?

The Fifth Seal is no different, for it refers to events on Earth. How do we know? The context. The texts reads that these "souls" were "under the Altar" - Rev. 6:9.

Question. According to the Scriptures, which Altar is this, the one in the Courtyard, or the Holy Place?​

It is the one in the Courtyard. How do we know? Context. For the blood of the first group of Martyrs mentioned in it, was poured out at the base of that altar, just as it is given us:

And he shall put [some] of the blood upon the horns of the altar which [is] before the LORD, that [is] in the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall pour out all the blood at the bottom of the altar of the burnt offering, which [is at] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. Leviticus 4:18

"And the priest shall ... shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar." Leviticus 4:30

And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put [it] upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar: Leviticus 4:34

And he shall sprinkle of the blood of the sin offering upon the side of the altar; and the rest of the blood shall be wrung out at the bottom of the altar: it [is] a sin offering. Leviticus 5:9

And he slew [it]; and Moses took the blood, and put [it] upon the horns of the altar round about with his finger, and purified the altar, and poured the blood at the bottom of the altar, and sanctified it, to make reconciliation upon it. Leviticus 8:15

And the sons of Aaron brought the blood unto him: and he dipped his finger in the blood, and put [it] upon the horns of the altar, and poured out the blood at the bottom of the altar: Leviticus 9:9​

That Altar of Burnt Offering, in which the Blood was poured out at the base, upon the earth, was in the Courtyard, which represents the Earth, where Christ Jesus died. See Exo. 40:29, etc.

Therefore, the symbolism is pointing to the reality of Earthly events, not Heaven ones.

The Souls under The Altar cannot be understood, unless the structure, timing, language, types and symbols of the Scriptures be understood. The Altar deals with the portion of the Sanctuary and the service of the Great High Priest, Jesus Christ. The timing of the events listed in the 5th seal, are two fold, namely there are two groups mentioned. One group that has already died/martyred in the past, during the 1,260, and one group yet future to be so, coming soon. The second group is picked up in Revelation 20:4, as those "beheaded", and this prophecy event has yet to occur. The language itself also needs to be carefully considered, for there are similar passages in scripture.

The 5th Church, 5th Seal and 5th Trumpets are unique in their scope, as they are backward and forward looking from their point. They are connectors from the transition of the 4th and 6th of those things.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Revelation 6:9

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Revelation 20:4​

See also Revelation 6:10-11 for context between the two verses.

In the first text we see that there were those "slain for":

[A1] "the word of God"
[B1] "the testimony [G3141] which they held"​

In the second text we see that there will be those "beheaded for":

[B2] "the witness ["testimony" G3141] of Jesus"
[A2] "the word of God"​

In Revelation 6:

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Revelation 6:9

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? Revelation 6:10

And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Revelation 6:11​

We are dealing with symbols, as we have been in the previous 4 seals Revelation 6:1-8. We are not looking at literal people stuck under a giant sanctuary fixture somewhere.

We see these "crying" out, we must understand this, that their martyred selves, by their shed blood upon the earth cries out for Justice, even as Abel's was spilled to the ground:

And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. Genesis 4:10

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. Hebrews 12:24

That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Matthew 23:35

From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation. Luke 11:51​

Other things also "cry out" in scripture, but are not actually alive:

For the stone shall cry out of the wall, and the beam out of the timber shall answer it. Habakkuk 2:11

And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out. Luke 19:40​

Other things also "cry out":

My soul longeth, yea, even fainteth for the courts of the LORD: my heart and my flesh crieth out for the living God. Psalms 84:2​

Now notice that these are dead, and that they, by their shed blood, in which was the Life - John 15:13, see also Genesis 9:4; Leviticus 17:11,14; Deuteronomy 12:23;, etc, are symbolically crying out for justice, even as Abels Blood shed from the foundation of the world, and they should "rest" [sleep of death in the grave] a little season longer "until" something was to happen... and that something is the slaying of the rest of the martyrs in the end, and will be vindicated in the Resurrection.

Rest/Sleep:

[sleep, asleep, sleepeth] Deuteronomy 31:16; 2 Samuel 7:12; Job 3:13, 7:21, 14:12; 1 Kings 1:21, 2:10, 11:21,43, 14:20,31, 15:8,24, 16:6,28, 22:40,50; 2 Kings 8:24, 10:35, 13:9,13, 14:16,22,29, 15:7,22,38, 16:20, 20:21, 21:18, 24:6; 2 Chronicles 9:31, 12:16, 14:1, 16:13, 21:1, 26:2,23, 27:9, 28:27, 32:33, 33:20; Job 14:12; Psalms 13:3; Matthew 27:52; John 11:11-13; Acts 7:60, 13:36; 1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15; 2 Peter 3:4; [awake] Job 14:12; Psalms 17:15; Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; John 11:11-13; [grave/bed] Job 17:13; Psalms 139:8; Luke 17:34; [fathers and prophets are dead] John 6:49,58, 8:52,53; Acts 2:29,34, 13:36; Hebrews 11:4,13,16,40​

Do they have crowns yet according to the Symbolism and Prophecy? No.

Notice also the question, "How long..." must they wait so? and a simple search will yield many answers in the OT/NT about this:

If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness. Job 17:13

If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Job 14:14​

When will God avenge them? Not until the other group of Martyrs comes, and them God will avenge both groups together, in the 7 last plagues -

"...rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." Revelation 6:11​

For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. Revelation 16:6​

After those things, comes Jesus, and the Resurrection to awaken the saints from the dust of the earth where they were asleep and waiting, knowing nothing. See 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

 

What about the texts I cited in the OP? Will you consider those texts with me? Afterall, those are scripture.

Did you know that Jesus cited the scripture which calls those of mankind "gods" (John 10:35; citing Psalms 82:1,6), and this was from the beginning (Genesis 3:5), etc. Do you know what it means? I do. Be glad to show you if interested.

Even Rome says (though it isn't what scripture says/defines):

"... "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81 ... (81 - St. Thomas Aquinas, Opusc. 57, 1-4.) ..." - Catechism of the Catholic Church - "He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, and born of the Virgin Mary"​

Who are the 'gods' among the Romanists?

"... Innocent III. has written: " Indeed, it is not too much to say that in view of the sublimity of their offices the priests are so many gods." 8 ... (8. "Sacerdotes, propter officii dignitatem, Deorum nomine nuncupantur." Can. Cum ex injuncto. De Haret.) ..." - Dignities And Duties Of The Priest; Alphonsus De Liguori (PDF); page 12 - https://ia801408.us.archive.org/17/...uori - Dignities And Duties Of The Priest.pdf
​

I do not think you have read the history of how sister White first understood the state of the dead (remember she used to be Methodist, which taught the unscriptural theology of immortal soul/spirit theology):

"... One day I listened to a conversation between my mother and a sister, in reference to a discourse which they had recently heard, to the effect that the soul had not natural immortality. Some of the minister's proof texts were repeated. Among them I remember these impressed me very forcibly: "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." "The living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything." "Which in His times He shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of Lords; who only hath immortality." "To them who by patient continuance in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life." "Why," said my mother, after quoting the foregoing passage, "should they seek for what they already have?" {1T 39.1}

I listened to these new ideas with an intense and painful interest. When alone with my mother, I inquired if she really believed that the soul was not immortal. Her reply was that she feared we had been in error on that subject as well as upon some others. {1T 39.2}

"But, mother," said I, "do you really believe that the soul sleeps in the grave until the resurrection? Do you think that the Christian, when he dies, does not go immediately to heaven, nor the sinner to hell?" {1T 39.3}

She answered: "The Bible gives us no proof that there is an eternally burning hell. If there is such a place, it should be mentioned in the Sacred Book." {1T 39.4}

"Why, mother!" cried I, in astonishment, "this is strange talk for you! If you believe this strange theory, do not let any one know of it; for I fear that sinners would gather security from this belief, and never desire to seek the Lord." {1T 39.5}

"If this is sound Bible truth," she replied, "instead of preventing the salvation of sinners, it will be the means of winning them to Christ. If the love of God will not induce the rebel to yield, the terrors of an eternal hell will not drive him [40] to repentance. Besides, it does not seem a proper way to win souls to Jesus, by appealing to one of the lowest attributes of the mind, abject fear. The love of Jesus attracts; it will subdue the hardest heart." {1T 39.6}

It was some months after this conversation before I heard anything further concerning this doctrine; but during this time my mind had been much exercised upon the subject. When I heard it preached, I believed it to be the truth. From the time that light in regard to the sleep of the dead dawned upon my mind, the mystery that had enshrouded the resurrection vanished, and the great event itself assumed a new and sublime importance. My mind had often been disturbed by its efforts to reconcile the immediate reward or punishment of the dead with the undoubted fact of a future resurrection and judgment. If at death the soul entered upon eternal happiness or misery, where was the need of a resurrection of the poor moldering body? {1T 40.1}

But this new and beautiful faith taught me the reason why inspired writers had dwelt so much upon the resurrection of the body; it was because the entire being was slumbering in the grave. I could now clearly perceive the fallacy of our former position on this question. The confusion and uselessness of a final judgment, after the souls of the departed had already been judged once and appointed to their lot, was very plain to me now. I saw that the hope of the bereaved is in looking forward to the glorious day when the Life-giver shall break the fetters of the tomb, and the righteous dead shall arise and leave their prison house to be clothed with glorious immortal life. {1T 40.2} ..." - Testimonies For The Church, Volume 1, pages 39,1 - 40.2​

So, she heard her mother and another sister speaking, then a sermon and studied the matter out from the scriptures. She made up nothing.

You might consider this study of the scriptures, and we can go over any concerns or questions or texts.

Different subject. Non sequitur.

Yes, in that order. The word "angel" simply means those sent with a message for another. God created many "worlds" before ours (Hebrews 1:2, 11:3; Psalms 33:6, etc), and thus as this world, notice:

Isa_45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Job_1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job_2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.​

Even the Jesuits of Rome know, though in a twisted manner. Citations upon request.

Yep, the higher and lower creatures, sure, from the ape and dog and dolphin to the ant and flea and mote the flitters in the sunbeam.

 

I said nothing about "secret" creations. Scripture plainly mentions these, as cited in the OP, notice again:

Mat 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Mat 18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Luk 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Luk 15:5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
Luk 15:6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Rev_12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.​

This world is the one lost sheep. The 99 are the representative of the unfallen worlds ["friends and neighbours", see Psalms 24 and Revelation 4-5], which "need no repentance", and "which went no astray" (did not sin), who "rejoice[d]" when Jesus return to Heaven ["home"], where they all dwell.

As it is written:

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Joh 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.​

Each "world" is as a "mansion" or gorgeous room, within the "Father's house", which is the universe spread out like a "tent" for God and His whole family.

Isa_40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:​

The 24 Elder (aka "Ancients") are the representatives of the unfallen worlds before God. They are distinct from the other angels (morning stars). Notice:

Job_38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?​

When Adam was created, He was called a "son of God".:

Luk_3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.​

Adam had Dominion over this world, until satan usurped it, and became the new "god of this world" (2 Corinthians 4:4).

You may understand our position better if you consider this presentation on it:

In part, yes. No question. As it is written:

Mat_6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Luk_11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.​

Thus, when God had Moses to separate the tribes, etc, it was after a pattern, that already existed in Heaven. The earthly model was to reflect the Heavenly model already present (before a Levitical priest ever existed).

This is where the occult (Jesuits, Masons, etc) and astrologists twist the scripture, "As above, so below.", and seek for guidance for things on earth by planetary motions, etc., all of which is simply taking that which was God's plan and altering it to suit the carnal heart.