Questions for Adventist

That is a misunderstanding of the investigative judgment (and "probation") and what Seventh-day Adventists (including sister White), teaches on assurance. Probation and assurance are not exclusive to each other, but complimentary, as also is the knowledge of the Redeemer to redeem and to keep the person unto the end. I know right now whether or not, I am in or not in, Christ Jesus during the time of probation.

That which you present as our (Seventh-day Adventist) theology is not actually ours. It is one of fear. It is a bad caricature.

The Roman Catholic (especially the Jesuit council of "Trent") is nothing like the Seventh-day Adventist theology. "Trent" repudiated everything the Reformation stood for.

 

Also seen in Truth About Angels, Patriarchs & Prophets, Story Of Redemption and Early Writings, and maybe a scattering of a few others (like Great Controversy). Ellen G. White Writings

Yes. True. Correct. Verily.

Yes, in all cases, as they are also mentioned in scripture, when studied in detail.

Yes, the scenes were likewise shown to her (as like unto other prophets OT (Isaiah 14; Ezekiel 28; Daniel 7) and NT (2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6; Revelation 12), etc).

This is your opinion (unsubstantiated in your present reply). I disagree with your assessment of the material, as I find all of it very much in tune with scripture, even in details (and those details we may consider together).

This is again your opinion showing through, and is not a proper question (iow, it is a leading question) given the circumstances (ie, without evidence or documentation to give credence to your position). I pray you do not think I would merely accept your position based upon your say so.

I have not taken anything sister White stated in person or in print merely based upon her "say-so" (sic), ever.

 

Sda teaches that none will have Jesus to mediate for them, that one must keep the Law as he did to merit keeping salvation, and denies pauline Justification!

 

The entire Investigative Judgement is bogus, as NONE of the Sda theologians have ever been able to find it in the scriptures!

 

Sister White (see Great Controversy, etc), Joseph Bates, James White, and the pioneers all 'found' it (there) in scripture. Also, who is this, and what are they looking at in scripture?



The "theologians" you are referring to, in meeting with Walter Martin, were all being deceptive with one another, and are most definitely not representative of the Seventh-day Adventist body collectively. Dathan, Korah and Abiram were among God's people, and denied God's word, as Judas also, but their theology was not that of God's.

 

Only sinners need a Mediator. When Jesus blots out the sins (end of the day of atonement) just before He returns (Acts 3:19-20), what need of the Priestly role of Jesus for sin as sin has been eradicated in their (saints) lives alive on earth at that time (they are then sinless)? Jesus (now wearing priestly garments in Heaven, see Revelation 1), after coming out, comes dressed as KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS (changed His clothes, see Revelation 19).

They have the Holy Spirit at that time, keeping them until Jesus comes, as the Just shall live by faith.

It would do you well to study the roles of Kings and Priests in scripture, and the places of the Sanctuary (Psalms 77:13), and the phases of Jesus ministry, and purpose, in each.

 

No, I do not assume. I have tested already, and I accept those matters of fact. From your point of view they seem to be assumed, but from my point of view, they are not assumed, but known to be true based upon the study thereof. I am not asking you to accept my position in regards them. I am asking you to accept my understanding of my position (in other words, accept that I believe them to be true based upon what I have studied and told you I have studied, whether or not you believe the conclusion I have come to, but accept that I have that conclusion). I am not begging anything. I am free to declare to be true without you ever having to accept that position. Truth does not need your consent. Truth is true, whether or not you, I or any of mankind accepted or acknowledged it or not.

 

No, she hasn't. What you have done (I can only assume based upon your present scenario in this present matter), is read in a few places, and those not very carefully or very prayerfully (and I assume you read the originals and not merely from some anti-Seventh-day Adventist website, which are notorious for grievous and blatant and ignorant errors (citations upon request)). Please allow me to show you the immediate context, and the remaining context of what sister White wrote on the same thing you have brought up in numerous places (I just went through ever single reference and citation, reading them each, and collated them for you, and it took only about 2-3 hours). It should be most clear to you after this response (I pray), and that I also hope you will not attempt this in the same manner with others afterwards. I will leave you with all the evidence you will need, and if you are honest (as I hope you are), then you will know what to do with that presented evidence. Ok?

I pray you consider what I will present, just shortly.

Thank you for sourcing directly. That is most helpful, though I prefer searching with this link (but never the less, thank you for the source (best to do it that way)) - Ellen G. White Writings

However, in your citation, you did not say that you added the italics and underline, as you ought to, as those are not original to that reference. Yet, this is minor, and only make that distinction to those who may read afterwards, and so to be clear. A more major error in your citation, is that you refer to "(Genesis 2:16-17)", which is not cited, nor referred to on that page in that actual work (The Spirit Of Prophecy, Volume 1; [PDF] page 22). That reference is your own (or another's from which you possibly copied) error. Sister White is not referring to Genesis 2:16-17 there. She is specifically referring to Genesis 3:1-5,6, as I will show you momentarily, and even will leave you with the Bible reference which is intimated and summarized there:

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.​

I pray that you see those two mistakes, one minor, the other much more major.

No, I do not, as your question has again a built in assumption, a biased apriori, which I do not acknowledge as being in any way true. In other words, I do not accept that sister White, and the word of God (KJB) are in "blatant discrepancy" to one another, neither even slightly so. They are not at all (period). I shall demonstrate shortly. Please have patience with me, and I shall pay thee all.

No. Moses' record is accurate and correct, and so is sister White's, which refers back to Moses' (even God's) record in Genesis, and that specifically Genesis 3.

Now, I shall present the evidence in the post to follow. Please read it carefully, and look at every reference (as I did), and if you need the full citations, I can provide them to you (as I read and copied every one down, personally, today - just for you (but I also benefited, and for that you are to be thanked - Thank you)).

 

Ok, see response part 1 here - Questions for Adventist

Now, to part 2 (a.) - the Evidence.

01. CITATIONS REFERNCES ONLY

[Citation 01]

- Spiritual Gifts, Volume 3, 35.2 (1864)

[Citation 02]

- Spiritual Gifts, Volume 3, 40.1 (1864)

[Citation 03]

- The Spirit Of Prophecy, Volume 1, 27.1 (1870)

[Citation 04]

- The Spirit Of Prophecy, Volume 1, 36.1 (1870)

[Citation 05]

- The Advent Review And Sabbath Herald; February 24, 1874; par. 12

[Citation 06]

- The Advent Review And Sabbath Herald; February 24, 1874; par. 14

[Citation 07]

- Redemption; or the Temptation of Christ in The Wilderness, page 9.2 (aka “2Red”; reprint Of articles appearing in Signs Of The Times & The Advent Review And Sabbath Herald; 1874-1875)

[Citation 08]

- Redemption; or the Temptation of Christ in The Wilderness, page 11.1 (aka “2Red”; reprint Of articles appearing in Signs Of The Times & The Advent Review And Sabbath Herald; 1874-1875)

[Citation 09]

- The Signs Of The Times, January 16, 1879; par. 25

[Citation 10]

- The Spirit Of Prophecy, Volume 4, 351.2-352.1 (1884)

[Citation 11]

- The Great Controversy 1888; page 532.1

[Citation 12]

- Experiences In Australia, page 107.5 (October, 1893)

[Citation 13]

- The Signs Of The Times, October 8. 1894; par. 3

[Citation 14]

- The Advent Review And Sabbath Herald, April 5, 1898; par. 8

[Citation 15]

- The Youth's Instructor, June 2, 1898; par. 3

[Citation 16]

- The Advent Review And Sabbath Herald, November 15, 1898; par. 9

[Citation 17]

- The Youth's Instructor, February 22, 1900; par. 2

[Citation 18]

- The Great Controversy 1911, page 532.1

[Citation 19]

- Patriarchs And Prophets, page 54.1 (1890)

[Citation 20]

- Manuscript 104, par. 11, (circa) 1893

[Citation 21]

- Manuscript 27, October 15, 1893; par. 1

[Citation 22]

- Signs Of The Times, February 13, 1896, par. 5

[Citation 23]

- Manuscript 16, March 25, 1897; par. 23

[Citation 24]

- Manuscript 56, June 24, 1897; par. 7

[Citation 25]

- Manuscript 145, December 30, 1897; Par. 2

[Citation 26]

- Manuscript 21, February 20, 1898; par. 29

[Citation 27]

- General Conference Daily Bulletin; Tree Of Life And The Tree Of Knowledge par. 3 (March 6, 1899), or article in total; par. 34

[Citation 28]

- Manuscript 140, September 27, 1903; par. 10

[Citation 29]

- Letter 245a, October 5, 1903; par. 30

[Citation 30]

- Education, page 23.3 (1903)

[Citation 31]

- Manuscript 164, December 28, 1905; par. 14

[Citation 32] [compilation 01]

- The Story Of Redemption, 24.1 (1947, compilation) [citing Spiritual Gifts, Volume 3, 35.2 (1864)]

[Citation 33] [compilation 02]

- The Story Of Redemption, 33.1 (1947, compilation) [citing Spiritual Gifts, Volume 3, 40.1 (1864)]

[Citation 34] [compilation 03]

- Temperance (1949, compilation), [cited from MS 27, 1893]

[Citation 35] [compilation 04]

- Selected Messages Book 1, 214.1 (1958, compilation) [Manuscript 16, March 25, 1897; par. 23]

[Citation 36] [compilation 05]

- Confrontation, 14.2 (1971, compilation) [citing The Advent Review And Sabbath Herald, February 24, 1874; par. 14]

[Citation 37] [compilation 06]

- From Here To Forever, page 328.2 (1982, compilation) [citing Spirit Of Prophecy, Volume 4, 351.2]

[Citation 38] [compilation 07]

- The Impending Conflict, page 14.3 (compilation, January 1, 1988) [citing The Great Controversy 1888 & 1911; page 532.1]

[Citation 39] [compilation 08]

- Lift him Up, 20.2 (1988, compilation, citing the Story Of Redemption, pages 24-31)

[Citation 40] [compilation 09]

- The Truth About Angels, 54.2-54.4 (1996, compilation)

[Citation 41] [compilation 10]

- Darkness Before Dawn, page 13.3 (1997, compilation) [citing The Great Controversy 1888 & 1911; page 532.1]

[Citation 42] [compilation 11]

- From The Heart, page 141.5 (September 7, 2010, compilation) [citing The Advent Review And Sabbath Herald, February 24, 1874; par. 14]

[Citation 43] [compilation 12]

- Christ Triumphant, page 21.4 (December 5, 2010) [citing Patriarchs And Prophets, page 54.1]

[Citation 44] [compilation 13]

- The Great Hope (Condensed), page 14.2 (January 1, 2012, compilation) [citing The Great Controversy 1888 & 1911; page 531.2]

 

Ok, see response part 1 here - Questions for Adventist

OK, see response part 2 here (part 2 (a.) - the Evidence) - Questions for Adventist

Now, to part 2 (b.) - Who Stated What?

02. WHO STATED WHAT???

[01] God commands??? (references followed by citations)

[Citation 01] - Spiritual Gifts, Volume 3, 35.2 (1864)
[Citation 03] - The Spirit Of Prophecy, Volume 1, 27.1 (1870)
[Citation 32] [compilation 01] - The Story Of Redemption, 24.1 (1947, compilation) [citing Spiritual Gifts, Volume 3, 35.2
(1864)]
[Citation 39] [compilation 08] - Lift him Up, 20.2 (1988, compilation, citing the Story Of Redemption, pages 24-31)

"... the Lord commanded our first parents not to eat, neither to touch it, lest they die. He told them that they might freely eat all of the trees in the garden except one; but if they ate of that tree they should surely die. ..."​

Do you see the context? The "Lord commanded" "not to eat", and "He told them that they might freely eat ... except one", and "if they ate". God said nothing about "neither to touch it", as He only gave "one" command ("not to eat"), not two ("neither to touch it"). The part about "neither to touch it" (as the whole reference) comes from the context of Genesis 3 with Eve speaking to the serpent. She (Eve) added to the word of God. Sister White, in context, is simply summing Genesis 3:3, without quotation marks, or giving the reference directly. See more:

[Citation 12] - Experiences In Australia, page 107.5 (October, 1893)

"... God placed only one restriction upon them. Of the fruit of the tree which was in (508) the midst of the garden, He said, “Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.” If they would not regard this restriction, they would forfeit their life. ..."​

Again, notice the reference cited is Genesis 3:3, not Genesis 2. The context of the statement again, is about Eve and the serpents conversation. Notice the words "one restriction", not two, and that single restriction ("this restriction", not "these restrictions") was "not eat of it", while the other part "neither shall ye touch it", was added by Eve, in that she said that God had said it. See further:

[Citation 21] - Manuscript 27, October 15, 1893; par. 1
[Citation 34] [compilation 03] - Temperance (1949, compilation), [cited from MS 27, 1893]

"... God made only one restriction. “The fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.” [Genesis 3:3.] They would forfeit their life if they did not obey the restriction. ..."​

Did you notice again, "only one restriction", and "not eat of it", and "the restriction", not "these restrictions". Did you also notice the reference given as "[Genesis 3:3]"? This means that sister White is citing what Eve said, and you may even see the quotation marks this time. The context that sister White is writing about is Genesis 3, and thus uses Genesis 3's reference to refer back to what God actually stated, though Eve was then adding to it (and also subtracting from it, for Eve misses the word "surely", as in "surely die"). It was Eve who both added and had taken away from God's word, not sister White. I even spake of this in another place in this forum recently.​

[02] Eve states that God said ...

[Citation 02] - Spiritual Gifts, Volume 3, 40.1 (1864)

"... Eve answers ... "... God hath said ... neither shall ye touch it ..." ..."​

[Citation 04] - The Spirit Of Prophecy, Volume 1, 36.1 (1870)
[Citation 09] - The Signs Of The Times, January 16, 1879; par. 25

"... She answers ... "... God hath said ... neither shall ye touch it ..." ..."​

[Citation 05] - The Advent Review And Sabbath Herald; February 24, 1874; par. 12
[Citation 07] - Redemption; or the Temptation of Christ in The Wilderness, page 9.2 (aka “2Red”; reprint Of articles appearing in Signs Of The Times & The Advent Review And Sabbath Herald; 1874-1875)
[Citation 33] [compilation 02] - The Story Of Redemption, 33.1 (1947, compilation) [citing Spiritual Gifts, Volume 3, 40.1 (1864)]
[Citation 40] [compilation 09] - The Truth About Angels, 54.2-54.4 (1996, compilation)

"... She answered ... "... God hath said ... neither shall ye touch it ..." ..."​

[Citation 19] - Patriarchs And Prophets, page 54.1 (1890)
[Citation 28] - Manuscript 140, September 27, 1903; par. 10
[Citation 29] - Letter 245a, October 5, 1903; par. 30
[Citation 43] [compilation 12] - Christ Triumphant, page 21.4 (December 5, 2010) [citing Patriarchs And Prophets, page 54.1]

"... she replied ... "... God hath said ... neither shall ye touch it ..." ..."​

[Citation 10] - The Spirit Of Prophecy, Volume 4, 351.2-352.1 (1884)
[Citation 11] - The Great Controversy 1888; page 532.1
[Citation 13] - The Signs Of The Times, October 8. 1894; par. 3
[Citation 15] - The Youth's Instructor, June 2, 1898; par. 3
[Citation 16] - The Advent Review And Sabbath Herald, November 15, 1898; par. 9
[Citation 17] - The Youth's Instructor, February 22, 1900; par. 2
[Citation 18] - The Great Controversy 1911, page 532.1
[Citation 20] - Manuscript 104, par. 11, (circa) 1893
[Citation 22] - Signs Of The Times, February 13, 1896, par. 5
[Citation 24] - Manuscript 56, June 24, 1897; par. 7
[Citation 25] - Manuscript 145, December 30, 1897; Par. 2
[Citation 26] - Manuscript 21, February 20, 1898; par. 29
[Citation 27] - General Conference Daily Bulletin; Tree Of Life And The Tree Of Knowledge par. 3 (March 6, 1899), or article in total; par. 34
[Citation 31] - Manuscript 164, December 28, 1905; par. 14
[Citation 35] [compilation 04] - Selected Messages Book 1, 214.1 (1958, compilation) [Manuscript 16, March 25, 1897; par. 23]
[Citation 37] [compilation 06] - From Here To Forever, page 328.2 (1982, compilation) [citing Spirit Of Prophecy, Volume 4, 351.2]
[Citation 38] [compilation 07] - The Impending Conflict, page 14.3 (compilation, January 1, 1988) [citing The Great Controversy 1888 & 1911; page 532.1]
[Citation 41] [compilation 10] - Darkness Before Dawn, page 13.3 (1997, compilation) [citing The Great Controversy 1888 & 1911; page 532.1]
[Citation 44] [compilation 13] - The Great Hope (Condensed), page 14.2 (January 1, 2012, compilation) [citing The Great Controversy 1888 & 1911; page 531.2]

"... the woman said ... "... God hath said ... neither shall ye touch it ..." ..."​

[Citation 14] - The Advent Review And Sabbath Herald, April 5, 1898; par. 8

"... the woman said ... "... God hath saith ... neither shall ye touch it ..." ..."​

[Citation 30] - Education, page 23.3 (1903)

"... the woman's statement ... "... God hath said ... neither shall ye touch it ..." ..."​

In all these references sister White clearly states that it was "Eve", or "the woman", etc, that said that "God said ... neither shall ye touch it". All of sister Whites materials are clear on this point, if even some might be confused (as they do not read carefully or prayerfully) in the first three citations. Many people "wrest" sister White as also they do the scriptures, as many had done to Paul, as Peter warned of. All must be read together, precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little and there a little.​

 

Ok, see response part 1 here - Questions for Adventist

OK, see response part 2 here (part 2 (a.) - the Evidence) - Questions for Adventist

OK, see response part 3 here (part 2 (b.) - Who Stated What? - Questions for Adventist

[03] So who said what exactly? It was Eve that wrongly added the clause, "neither shall ye touch it":

[Citation 06] - The Advent Review And Sabbath Herald; February 24, 1874; par. 14
[Citation 08] - Redemption; or the Temptation of Christ in The Wilderness, page 11.1 (aka “2Red”; reprint Of articles appearing in Signs Of The Times & The Advent Review And Sabbath Herald; 1874-1875)
[Citation 36] [compilation 05] - Confrontation, 14.2 (1971, compilation) [citing The Advent Review And Sabbath Herald, February 24, 1874; par. 14]
[Citation 40] [compilation 09] - The Truth About Angels, 54.2-54.4 (1996, compilation)
[Citation 42] [compilation 11] - From The Heart, page 141.5 (September 7, 2010, compilation) [citing The Advent Review And Sabbath Herald, February 24, 1874; par. 14]

"... Eve had overstated the words of God's command. He had said to Adam and Eve, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." In Eve's controversy with the serpent, she added the clause, "Neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die." Here the subtlety of the serpent was seen. This statement of Eve ..."

"... used her own words, “He hath said, ‘If ye touch it, ..."​

[04] Sister White, what ever could you possibly mean (even though you were so clear in so many places for those who read carefully and prayerfully). Here is a clarification if there was ever any doubt in all that was said:

[Citation 23] - Manuscript 16, March 25, 1897; par. 23 [The Key Clarification By Sister White]

"... There are many beliefs that the mind has no right to entertain. Adam believed the lie of Satan, the wily insinuations against the character of God. “And the Lord commanded man saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” [Genesis 2:16, 17.] When Satan tempted Eve, he said, “Hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it,” (this God did not say) “lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” [Genesis 3:1-5.] ..." - Manuscript 16, March 25, 1897; par. 23​

Did you read the part where sister White placed in parentheses "(this God did not say)" in reference to the words "neither shall ye touch it", as she, as in so many places here referred to, was citing or alluding to Genesis 3:3 in the context of Genesis 3:1-5,6?​

Most of the citations are directly citing (and the others indirectly referencing) Genesis 3:1-5,6 (depending on the citation).

For instance, many (original and compilation) even directly give the reference, see:

Original (when sister White was alive):

[Citation 10] - The Spirit Of Prophecy, Volume 4, 351.2-352.1 (1884)
[Citation 11] - The Great Controversy 1888; page 532.1
[Citation 18] - The Great Controversy 1911, page 532.1
[Citation 20] - Manuscript 104, par. 11, (circa) 1893
[Citation 21] - Manuscript 27, October 15, 1893; par. 1
[Citation 23] - Manuscript 16, March 25, 1897; par. 23
[Citation 24] - Manuscript 56, June 24, 1897; par. 7
[Citation 25] - Manuscript 145, December 30, 1897; Par. 2
[Citation 26] - Manuscript 21, February 20, 1898; par. 29
[Citation 28] - Manuscript 140, September 27, 1903; par. 10
[Citation 29] - Letter 245a, October 5, 1903; par. 30
[Citation 30] - Education, page 23.3 (1903)
[Citation 31] - Manuscript 164, December 28, 1905; par. 14​

Compilation (after sister White went to sleep):

[Citation 35] [compilation 04] - Selected Messages Book 1, 214.1 (1958, compilation) [Manuscript 16, March 25, 1897; par. 23]
[Citation 37] [compilation 06] - From Here To Forever, page 328.2 (1982, compilation) [citing Spirit Of Prophecy, Volume 4, 351.2]
[Citation 38] [compilation 07] - The Impending Conflict, page 14.3 (compilation, January 1, 1988) [citing The Great Controversy 1888 & 1911; page 532.1]
[Citation 40] [compilation 09] - The Truth About Angels, 54.2-54.4 (1996, compilation)
[Citation 41] [compilation 10] - Darkness Before Dawn, page 13.3 (1997, compilation) [citing The Great Controversy 1888 & 1911; page 532.1]
[Citation 44] [compilation 13] - The Great Hope (Condensed), page 14.2 (January 1, 2012, compilation) [citing The Great Controversy 1888 & 1911; page 531.2]
​

I pray that the evidence is overwhelmingly clear. If it is not, then something else is the matter, and that something I cannot remedy. What remedy I can give, has here been given. All who are honest, will see what was here given.

 

sda took FIVE years to search the scriptures among their best scholars, and could not find it there!

 

Those judged worthy in the IJ to merit salvation must keep law as well as Jesus, per EW!