Questions for Adventist

[Yeshua1]

Have you even read a single work by sister White in its entirety? Sister White most certainly did not deny that "Hell was real". Do you need me to provide that evidence from many quotations, or can I trust you, to simply go to the following site and type in "hell" and read for yourself and adjust your comments from this point forward? - Ellen G. White Writings

What sister White denied was 'eternal torment', and rightly so, as scripture (KJB) doesn't teach it, anywhere.

Jesus taught hell was eternal more than anyone else!

 

[Yeshua1]

According to scripture, Jesus [the Son of the Father] had taken upon Himself the likeness of sinful flesh (iow, fallen sinful flesh; Romans 8:3), and thus condemned "sin" in that very flesh, the flesh we also bear (Hebrews 2:17). Jesus, himself knew no sin, did no sin, but that speaks to the heart/mind (as Jesus was born of the Holy Ghost; Luke 1:35), not the flesh, as it is written (John 3:6).

To teach that Jesus did not take upon Himself that fallen sinful flesh of mankind, is to negate the entire Gospel, the plan of salvation and redemption. This is why John was so serious in stating what he did here:

1Jn_4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2Jn_1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
​

To deny it, would be to also deny that Jesus came of the seed of David according to the flesh (Romans 1:3), being that flesh received from fallen Adam (Luke 3:38).

To deny that Jesus took upon Himself fallen sinful flesh, would also deny what Paul stated in Hebrews 2:

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
​

Angels of Heaven have unfallen flesh, not fallen (1 Corinthians 15:38-42)

jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, so no sin nature!

 

[Protestant]

No. Moses' record is accurate and correct, and so is sister White's, which refers back to Moses' (even God's) record in Genesis, and that specifically Genesis 3.

EGW invents a meeting between two ‘good’ angels and Adam and Eve:

“God assembled the angelic host to take measures to avert the threatened evil. It was decided in Heaven’s council for angels to visit Eden and warn Adam that he was in danger from the foe. Two angels sped on their way to visit our first parents…….”

These angels allegedly explained Satan and his rebellion to the innocent couple. They were to be on guard, because Satan would somehow attempt them to disobey the law of God. “They were moral agents free to obey or disobey.”

Here the prophetess changes the nature of the test given Adam. She imagines an explicit warning given by angels. Apparently the original warning given by the Lord was insufficient to be heeded. God needed back-up. Do you not discern how EGW diminishes the glory of God? Do you not discern how EGW infers the Holy Spirit left out crucial information, re: the two angels warnings, for thousands of years? Such carelessness in relating a critical time in the history of mankind infers a God who is less than perfect. Do you not understand?

 

[Yeshua1]

Are you aware the SDA doctrine of probation, whereby it is not possible to know for certain if you will eventually be welcomed into the presence of the Lord, has its origin in Roman Catholicism?

Please read The Council of Trent decree: On Justification, First Decree, Chapter 9, Against the Vain Confidence of Heretics (Source). In it we are told, "But, although it is necessary to believe that sins neither are remitted, nor ever were remitted save gratuitously by the mercy of God for Christ's sake; yet is it not to be said, that sins are forgiven, or have been forgiven, to any one who boasts of his confidence and certainty of the remission of his sins, and rests on that alone; seeing that it may exist, yea does in our day exist, amongst heretics and schismatics; and with great vehemence is this vain confidence, and one alien from all godliness, preached up in opposition to the Catholic Church."

Supreme irony that the Sda hates RCC with passion, and yet their salvation theology mirrors that of Rome!

 

[Yeshua1]

There have been numerous so-called 'prophets' who have claimed heavenly visions, as well as a divine calling to be messengers of God. Their supporters all 'swore' by these 'prophets.' Their supporters were all sincere in their beliefs, as are you. However, when comparing all their 'revelations' it becomes quite obvious:
(1) Their visions and messages are disparate.
(2) They all inevitably contradict orthodox doctrine.
(3) Their followers all believe they alone hold divine truth.
(4) Their prophecies fail.
(5) Each sect has its own unique laws and commandments which must be kept, lest they perish.

All true biblical prophets had the approval of God, as evidenced by the numerous miracles they performed. Furthermore, in studying their doctrine it is obvious they do not contradict each other.

Thus, verification of their divine calling came from their miracles, which could only be possible by the power of God, and the harmony of their doctrine.

EGW fails the test of God as set forth in His Word. There is no doubt she was a prolific writer who had help from her many 'spirit guides,' 'literary assistants,' and large library. She was also adept at mesmerism which enabled her to use Svengali-like powers over the men.... a la Jim Jones.

mary baker eddy, Joseph Smith, Ellen White Satan was busy at that time!

 

[Yeshua1]

EGW invents a meeting between two ‘good’ angels and Adam and Eve:

“God assembled the angelic host to take measures to avert the threatened evil. It was decided in Heaven’s council for angels to visit Eden and warn Adam that he was in danger from the foe. Two angels sped on their way to visit our first parents…….”

These angels allegedly explained Satan and his rebellion to the innocent couple. They were to be on guard, because Satan would somehow attempt them to disobey the law of God. “They were moral agents free to obey or disobey.”

Here the prophetess changes the nature of the test given Adam. She imagines an explicit warning given by angels. Apparently the original warning given by the Lord was insufficient to be heeded. God needed back-up. Do you not discern how EGW diminishes the glory of God? Do you not discern how EGW infers the Holy Spirit left out crucial information, re: the two angels warnings, for thousands of years? Such carelessness in relating a critical time in the history of mankind infers a God who is less than perfect. Do you not understand?

If they would not believe the Lord, what would mere angels do for them?

 

[Yeshua1]

Also seen in Truth About Angels, Patriarchs & Prophets, Story Of Redemption and Early Writings, and maybe a scattering of a few others (like Great Controversy). Ellen G. White Writings

Yes. True. Correct. Verily.

Yes, in all cases, as they are also mentioned in scripture, when studied in detail.

Yes, the scenes were likewise shown to her (as like unto other prophets OT (Isaiah 14; Ezekiel 28; Daniel 7) and NT (2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6; Revelation 12), etc).

This is your opinion (unsubstantiated in your present reply). I disagree with your assessment of the material, as I find all of it very much in tune with scripture, even in details (and those details we may consider together).

This is again your opinion showing through, and is not a proper question (iow, it is a leading question) given the circumstances (ie, without evidence or documentation to give credence to your position). I pray you do not think I would merely accept your position based upon your say so.

I have not taken anything sister White stated in person or in print merely based upon her "say-so" (sic), ever.

God quit giving forth additional revelations when John died!

 

[Alofa Atu]

sda took FIVE years to search the scriptures among their best scholars, and could not find it there!

Fake news. It's a thing these days. The video given and powerpoint show otherwise, as well as the material already written by sister White (and others in the pioneer materials) long before the meetings with Walter Martin. In my own Bible study, it took much much less time than "FIVE" (sic) years, and saw it present it from Genesis to Revelation.

 

[Alofa Atu]

God quit giving forth additional revelations when John died!

You are a Calvinistic Cessationist. I am not. I agree with the scripture, which states that God would pour forth His Holy Spirit in the last days, upon men and women, and that the gifts to the Church (such as prophets, prophecy) are still very present with her.

 

[Alofa Atu]

If they would not believe the Lord, what would mere angels do for them?

Angels are sent forth by God as "ministers" (to minister truth, knowledge, science, etc; see Daniel 9:22, etc):

Psa_104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

Heb_1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.​

So, to believe the Angels (Gabriel and 'Herald') sent, is to believe God, notice, one who doubted the Angel (Gabriel) sent:

Luk 1:12 And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.
Luk 1:13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
Luk 1:14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
Luk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
Luk 1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
Luk 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
Luk 1:18 And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.
Luk 1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
Luk 1:20 And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.​

 

[Alofa Atu]

Those judged worthy in the IJ to merit salvation must keep law as well as Jesus, per EW!

The IJ is not about "merit[ing] salvation" ~ at all. Salvation is not "merit[ed]" ~ (period). You will not find among the writings of sister White, nor any faithful Seventh-day Adventist, that the IJ is to or for "merit[ing] salvation".

Obedience to God in all things, is the Law of Life, as it has always been. Obedience to God, in all things, is not the matter "for" salvation, but that which exists "in" salvation.

 

[Alofa Atu]

...What I find amazing is the fact that the original 'divine vision' which I cited was left unchanged.

There is a HUGE difference in declaring "The Lord commanded our first parents not to eat, neither to touch it, lest they die" versus "The Lord commanded our first parents not to eat, lest they die."

The latter phrase is biblical, while the former is unbiblical and not of God.

With all due respect, the fact that you are not troubled by this blatant 'divine' error I find quite troubling.

Allow me to re-emphasize what I have already stated:

"I pray that the evidence is overwhelmingly clear. If it is not, then something else is the matter, and that something I cannot remedy. What remedy I can give, has here been given. All who are honest, will see what was here given."​

You (presently) cannot be healed by the remedy provided. There is only one reason for that condition which now exists with you. Jesus spake of it in Matthew 13, citing Isaiah. Thank you for the question, and I have rejoiced in God for what God has provided in answer, even if others remain as they are before it was given from on High. I will now move onto another question, as the answer to this is now exhausted.

 

[Alofa Atu]

There have been numerous so-called 'prophets' who have claimed heavenly visions, as well as a divine calling to be messengers of God.

True. Joseph Smith (LDS) being an infamous one, and yet he wouldn't be the first nor last. This is why God, in the scriptures, warned about false prophets that would be present, along with the true:

Mat_24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mat_24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mar_13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

1Co_14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

Eph_3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Eph_4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

2Pe_2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

1Jn_4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.​

Their supporters all 'swore' by these 'prophets.'

Of course. Many believed Hananiah (Jeremiah 28:1-17) the false prophet in the days of Jeremiah the true prophet. The devil always raises up a (or many) counterfeit(-s) when the true is revealed and present. It was always been this way from the beginning. Even when Enoch and Noah were prophesying, others were raised up by the devil to counter their message, with messages of "peace, peace", and "peace and safety".

Their supporters were all sincere in their beliefs

I would say as a general rule, "No doubt, no doubt.", though some might be in it to simply make money, or for their own gains (say like the nearest to Benny Hinn, etc).

as are you.

I am most sincere, but being sincere is not the basis for deciding what is true from false. The Bible (KJB) is the standard for delineating Truth from Error, not myself (or my sincerity).

However, when comparing all their 'revelations' it becomes quite obvious:

(1) Their visions and messages are disparate.
(2) They all inevitably contradict orthodox doctrine.
(3) Their followers all believe they alone hold divine truth.
(4) Their prophecies fail.
(5) Each sect has its own unique laws and commandments which must be kept, lest they perish.

Generally true, though not always in every case. Some prophecies can be realized even with a false prophet, as it is written in scripture:

Deu_13:2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;​

Moreover, for Seventh-day Adventists, we do not, and have never, claimed that we "alone hold divine truth". For instance, many (not all) Baptists hold to the literal, natural, consecutive 7 days of Creation by God about 6,000 years ago. Truth is not owned by us. Truth is God's, and He shares it with whom He wills. Another for instance, is in the teaching that Michael is just another designation for the Son of God, and this was (and in some cases still is) held by many, including Baptists, Methodists, Anglicans, Theologians, Scholars, etc. The truth of that matter is not merely held by us (Seventh-day Adventists). Thus goes for all the truths we hold (state of the dead, Justification, diet, etc), with the possible exceptions of the Investigative Judgment and Heavenly Sanctuary, which all are free to claim as truth also.

All true biblical prophets had the approval of God, as evidenced by the numerous miracles they performed.

Miracles are no sign of a true prophet, though they can be present with a true prophet. John the Baptist, as others I can list from scripture, did no miracle (like Daniel, etc). I can name false prophets which did do miracles.

Furthermore, in studying their doctrine it is obvious they do not contradict each other.

Truth, as sister White herself does not contradict herself, neither the previous prophets before her.

Thus, verification of their divine calling came from their miracles, which could only be possible by the power of God, and the harmony of their doctrine.

Not true, see Daniel, John the Baptist, etc. No miracles.

EGW fails the test of God as set forth in His Word.

I, of course by the evidence I have seen, disagree with you.

There is no doubt she was a prolific writer who had help from her many 'spirit guides,' 'literary assistants,' and large library.

Moses was guided by Jethro, and his assistant was Aaron, Miriam and also Joshua. Daniel had schooling, etc. The libraries of Israel I am sure were quite large, for Solomon, and others like Jeremiah (whose scribe and assistant was Baruch), and likewise for Paul (whose assistant was at least Tertius (for Romans)).. Daniel, Peter and Paul were all visited by angels, among others.

She was also adept at mesmerism

This is simply an accusation, baseless in evidence. It may be safely ignored. She wrote whole books against "mesmerism", see "Mind, Character and Personality", Volumes 1 & 2 to begin with.

which enabled her to use Svengali-like powers over the men.... a la Jim Jones.

Jim Jones had some interesting connections, and his basic background was in Roman Catholic social justice theology. He also had people kill themselves (at gun point no less).

Sister White is far removed from any such thing. To say otherwise, is to paint with a palette of colour representative of the enemy of all souls.

Thank you for your personal commentary. I disagree with much of it, based upon my scriptural & historical position evidenced in facts.

 

[Alofa Atu]

mary baker eddy, Joseph Smith, ... Satan was busy at that time!

Did you ever think to ask, why so many false after so long a time? Did you ever think to ask, what was satan attempting to bury? Think of the days of Jesus Christ, when so many false Messiahs arose.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Supreme irony that the Sda hates RCC with passion, and yet their salvation theology mirrors that of Rome!

Seventh-day Adventists do not hate people, just erroneous theologies, practices. Catholics can be Christians (just depends on the persons/individuals).

The theologies of both systems, are as night and day. It is interesting that Rome knows who the enemy is, and points them out by name in their material.

 

[Alofa Atu]

jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, so no sin nature!

Do not make the tragic mistake of confusing the flesh with the spirit:

Joh_3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.​

 

[Alofa Atu]

God quit giving forth additional revelations when John died!

Have you heard of the prophecy of George Wishart? or John Huss? or of Luther's prophecy? or the dreams of Patrick of Ireland? or the dreams of the Duke Frederick the elector of Saxony? or dreams of Maniilaq? or dreams of brother Matteson, or the prophecies of Auka? or the visions of William Foy or Hazen Foss? If not, I can present them to you for case study.

 

[Alofa Atu]

EGW invents a meeting between two ‘good’ angels and Adam and Eve:

You added the word "invents', which implies a subtil motive. Please be assured, based upon all the evidence available (even to you, in the link I provided), sister White never had such subtil motive as stated here.

“God assembled the angelic host to take measures to avert the threatened evil. It was decided in Heaven’s council for angels to visit Eden and warn Adam that he was in danger from the foe. Two angels sped on their way to visit our first parents…….”

The citation is found in 4 sources:

See this link - Ellen G. White Writings

1. The Story of Redemption, p. 29.2 (1947, compilation) [citing "SoPv1" (1870)]
2. The Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 1, p. 32.3 (1870) [original]
3. The Truth About Angels, p. 51.4 (1996, compilation) [citing "SoPv1" (1870)]
4. The Signs of the Times January 16, 1879 paragraph 17 (January 16, 1879) [citing "SoPv1" (1870)]​

The citation is based upon that which is in scripture (if studied carefully and prayerfully), and shown to sister White simply. Think of it like the difference between a book (scripture) and a movie (vision)

These angels allegedly explained Satan and his rebellion to the innocent couple. They were to be on guard, because Satan would somehow attempt them to disobey the law of God. “They were moral agents free to obey or disobey.”

All quite true of course.

The second quotation, as given here, is found in 4 sources also:

See this link - Ellen G. White Writings

1. The Story of Redemption, p. 30.1 (1947, compilation) [citing "SoPv1" (1870)]
2. The Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 1, p. 33.2 (1870) [original]
3. Lift Him Up, p. 20.5 (1988, compilation) [citing "SoPv1" (1870)]
4. The Signs of the Times January 16, 1879 paragraph 19 (January 16, 1879) [citing "SoPv1" (1870)]​

Who can read the scriptures and doubt that Adam and Eve were moral agents free to obey or disobey? Just consider Genesis 1-3 to begin with. Adam and Eve were given a choice. Love or selfishness. Obey or disobey based upon the evidence God provided them (God created before (in front of) Adam, provided all their needs, gave them joy and communion with Himself, etc).

Here the prophetess changes the nature of the test given Adam.

Not at all. The test was always, 'obey' or 'disobey' of which the trees were central. Sister White is simply sharing what God had shown her by vision in simple words, which is also present in scripture by deep and prayerful studying line upon line.

She imagines an explicit warning given by angels.

Sister White did not "imagine" the warning sent by God. It is in scripture. One must understand the events of Revelation 12 with Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28, with Genesis 1-3, among other texts and piece them together correctly.

In Genesis 3, we see that the Son of the Father (aka "the voice of the LORD God"; in other words, "the Word") would visit with Adam and Eve every so often, as in Genesis 3:8, and knew that the Son always travelled with two others (angels), as in Genesis 3, 11, 17-19; Luke 24:4; Acts 1:10, etc. These two Cherubims are also present in Genesis 3:24, as they had come down with the Son of the Father also at that time:

Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.​

The Hebrew word for "Cherubims" is indeed 'plural'. You may see that here - Link

God always sends warning to His people, even as He had among the angels in Heaven.

Perfect man (Adam, Eve) had communion not merely with the Son of the Father, but with the angelic hosts also, as Adam was the 'god (having dominion in stewardship) of this world', before his sin, and abdication and submission to 'satan'. Adam, as 'satan' afterwards, was able to meet with the other "sons of God" (Job 1 & 2) as representative of this world, as they were of theirs.

All throughout the OT and even the NT, angels are seen in conversation with various of God's chosen, and even seen in interaction with the wicked.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Apparently the original warning given by the Lord was insufficient to be heeded.

That is your misunderstanding, and own colouration of what is being stated. You have not coloured correctly.

God, throughout the scriptures, from Genesis to Revelation gives commands, and always sends further warning, instruction, reminders, etc by those whom He chooses (angels, men, animals, nature, etc). Thus God is always the same, character-wise, the same, yesterday, today and for ever. For instance, God dealt with Judas, as He had with King Saul, as He had with Lucifer himself in Heaven.

God needed back-up.

Back up? Odd way to state the events so named, since those events have many parallels in the scripture. Did God not send angels and men to warn men, even after God already commanded, God already worked? As it is written:

2Ch_36:15 And the LORD God of their fathers sent to them by his messengers, rising up betimes, and sending; because he had compassion on his people, and on his dwelling place:

Jer_7:25 Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them:

Jer_25:4 And the LORD hath sent unto you all his servants the prophets, rising early and sending them; but ye have not hearkened, nor inclined your ear to hear.​

Do you not discern how EGW diminishes the glory of God?

Not at all. It glorifies God all the more, for His great mercies, long suffering, and diligence and care as a loving Father. How many times did Jesus speak warnings to His own disciples, and even tell them of His own death? before and reminded them afterwards also?

Luk_24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:​

Do you not discern how EGW infers the Holy Spirit left out crucial information

I almost choked out a laugh here, but was able to contain. The Holy Ghost left out nothing, as it is in scripture if you read very carefully line upon line. The Testimonies (aka Spirit of Prophecy) are simple renditions of that which is deeply given in scripture.

... re: the two angels warnings, for thousands of years?

Let's assume (your position) for just a moment and think that God left out the warning for "thousands of years". If we were to apply that same reasoning, logic and understanding or position to the Bible itself, we would have to conclude that God did the same there also. Consider Paul in "Jannes and Jambres". Consider Jude in speaking of the resurrection of "Moses" and the confrontation over the body thereof. Consider just John's Gospel, as compared to Matthew, Mark's and Luke's, which (John's) was provided many years later. Consider the Revelation itself as summing up things in the OT and giving greater details and further expanding upon what was in the beginning. We can even just consider Genesis 1 compared to Genesis 2, in it's expansion of Genesis 1. Are we to then also assume God forget and had to add something more later? or should we consider God's method and character:

Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.​

1Co_3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.​

The revelation of God is always 'progressive', and 'expansive', building upon the foundation already begun.

And all that, if we just assume your position. Yet, I do not even have to take that route with the material under discussion.

Such carelessness in relating a critical time in the history of mankind infers a God who is less than perfect.

Only in your mind, which began upon the wrong foot as it were. I do not assume what you have assumed. My position isn't based upon that starting point of yours. Therefore, my position infers nothing about God being less than perfect. God is perfect. God does that which is always good, righteous and true, in His time, His way.

Do you not understand?

Oh, I can say without a doubt that my understanding is only partial at this time, with the fullness to come very shortly (as time goes):

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.​

 

[Yeshua1]

Fake news. It's a thing these days. The video given and powerpoint show otherwise, as well as the material already written by sister White (and others in the pioneer materials) long before the meetings with Walter Martin. In my own Bible study, it took much much less time than "FIVE" (sic) years, and saw it present it from Genesis to Revelation.

There is NO scripture that supports the Sda IJ, as it ONLY is "proven" by so called Sda visions!