God is Completely Sovereign or in Control of EVERYTHING that happens. PT 2

[timtofly]

You are trying to change the subject and ignore what I asked you.


You make an unsubstantiated assertion here. The Bible doesn't teach this. If it did, you would never have to choose Jesus and Jesus would never have needed to die. Humanity would be fully atoned and we would just live in paradise.


This is a form of Pelagianism which has been considered heresy since Pelagian voiced it.

So, here was my question.

Does God choose to redeem all humanity or a selection of humanity?

You answered that all humanity is saved at birth, their names are written in the book of life and Jesus atonement covers all humanities sins. (That is universalism by the way.)

The second question follows: If God chooses only a selection, is God evil for choosing only a selection and not all?

You reject this question in favor of universalism, with the caveat that humans can reject God (even though all their sins, including the sin of rejection, has been fully atoned for by the blood of Christ Jesus).

Tim, your theology is entirely based upon a false premise that is not supported in scripture, by God. You can continue to argue, but every orthodox believer here at the BB will know you have rejected the teaching of God passed down over millenniums.

Universalism says, even in sin, all will be saved. The false claim is that only the names in the book, will be saved.

The Bible says all are in the Lamb's book of life, but their works, will remove them. The precedent was given by Moses: Exodus 32:9-34

9 And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
11 And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

God wanted to destroy them, but Moses changed God’s mind. Later when Moses delivered the answer to God, and petitioned on his people's behalf,

30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the Lord; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.
31 And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
34 Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.

So God gave Moses the promise, that God would not destroy all mankind, but would only remove those who sin against God.

The point is not that humans were left out, but they would be removed.

Reformed theology was not passed down from Adam to Calvin. Reformed theology was passed down from Calvin to Satan in the Great Tribulation.

David in the Psalms knew that the Holy Spirit was at work in the womb. John the Baptist experienced the Holy Spirit working in the womb. Paul said all humanity knew the invisible things of God before they knew anything else, which would be in the womb. We are in Adam at conception. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit at conception. That is not the second birth. That is God preventing Satan from doing anything until we are redeemed, without God’s allowance. Our sin nature works against us driving our will against God. The Holy Spirit makes us willing. The moment we accept (the free will moment), we change from our will to God's will.

That is the second birth. The first one by water, the second by the Spirit. Our acceptance of Atonement gave the Holy Spirit full access. Paul states it is still dying to our flesh daily. We trade good habits for addictive thorns of the flesh. No where is universalism stated. We are not choosing universalism. We are choosing God’s Atonement. None of that is Reformed theology. Jesus did not teach Reformed theology. Paul did not teach Reformed theology. James did not teach Reformed theology. John the Baptist did not teach Reformed theology. John the Beloved did not teach Reformed theology. Moses did not put Reformed theology in the Law.

 

[atpollard]

Is the book of Job about?

God and man?
Satan and man?

God and Satan?

Who is the pawn in the book?

Who moves the pawn?

The Book of Job is primarily about how a Righteous Man responds when it appears from circumstances that God has abandoned him and he faces false accusations even from his friends.

It is a useful example to have, because in life not everything seems to make sense all of the time.

 

[AustinC]

Universalism says, even in sin, all will be saved. The false claim is that only the names in the book, will be saved.

The Bible says all are in the Lamb's book of life, but their works, will remove them. The precedent was given by Moses: Exodus 32:9-34

9 And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
11 And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

God wanted to destroy them, but Moses changed God’s mind. Later when Moses delivered the answer to God, and petitioned on his people's behalf,

30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the Lord; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.
31 And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
34 Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.

So God gave Moses the promise, that God would not destroy all mankind, but would only remove those who sin against God.

The point is not that humans were left out, but they would be removed.

Reformed theology was not passed down from Adam to Calvin. Reformed theology was passed down from Calvin to Satan in the Great Tribulation.

David in the Psalms knew that the Holy Spirit was at work in the womb. John the Baptist experienced the Holy Spirit working in the womb. Paul said all humanity knew the invisible things of God before they knew anything else, which would be in the womb. We are in Adam at conception. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit at conception. That is not the second birth. That is God preventing Satan from doing anything until we are redeemed, without God’s allowance. Our sin nature works against us driving our will against God. The Holy Spirit makes us willing. The moment we accept (the free will moment), we change from our will to God's will.

That is the second birth. The first one by water, the second by the Spirit. Our acceptance of Atonement gave the Holy Spirit full access. Paul states it is still dying to our flesh daily. We trade good habits for addictive thorns of the flesh. No where is universalism stated. We are not choosing universalism. We are choosing God’s Atonement. None of that is Reformed theology. Jesus did not teach Reformed theology. Paul did not teach Reformed theology. James did not teach Reformed theology. John the Baptist did not teach Reformed theology. John the Beloved did not teach Reformed theology. Moses did not put Reformed theology in the Law.

These verses in Exodus have nothing to do with your assertion. There is no connection to your claim. Moreso, God is talking about his chosen people, not all humanity, in that passage.
Your entire argument is made of straw with no biblical support. You may hold your position, but no traditional Baptist or Reformed Baptist will ever entertain your position as having any validity. You're living on an island of your own creation.

 

[Dave G]

It's really sad that Calvinist tend to make God out to the God they want instead of the God He is.

 

[Dave G]

The Bible says all are in the Lamb's book of life, but their works, will remove them.

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." ( Revelation 13:8 )

" The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is." ( Revelation 17:8 ).

 

[Dave G]

Our acceptance of Atonement gave the Holy Spirit full access.

" The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." ( John 3:8 ).

Daniel 4:35.

 

[timtofly]

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." ( Revelation 13:8 )

" The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is." ( Revelation 17:8 ).

Yep, they worked past the deadline. The book of life was opened at the 7th seal. The Second Coming put an end to the church. All those names were removed, when the number 666 appeared on their foreheads.

 

[timtofly]

" The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." ( John 3:8 ).

Daniel 4:35.

Hosea 8:1-7
"Set the trumpet to thy mouth. He shall come as an eagle against the house of the Lord, because they have transgressed my covenant, and trespassed against my law.
2 Israel shall cry unto me, My God, we know thee.
3 Israel hath cast off the thing that is good: the enemy shall pursue him.
4 They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.
5 Thy calf, O Samaria, hath cast thee off; mine anger is kindled against them: how long will it be ere they attain to innocency?
6 For from Israel was it also: the workman made it; therefore it is not God: but the calf of Samaria shall be broken in pieces.
7 For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind: it hath no stalk; the bud shall yield no meal: if so be it yield, the strangers shall swallow it up."

 

[AustinC]

Hosea 8:1-7
"Set the trumpet to thy mouth. He shall come as an eagle against the house of the Lord, because they have transgressed my covenant, and trespassed against my law.
2 Israel shall cry unto me, My God, we know thee.
3 Israel hath cast off the thing that is good: the enemy shall pursue him.
4 They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.
5 Thy calf, O Samaria, hath cast thee off; mine anger is kindled against them: how long will it be ere they attain to innocency?
6 For from Israel was it also: the workman made it; therefore it is not God: but the calf of Samaria shall be broken in pieces.
7 For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind: it hath no stalk; the bud shall yield no meal: if so be it yield, the strangers shall swallow it up."

Do you understand the context of this passage in Hosea? Have you read 1st and 2nd Chronicles to get the story behind what God is saying through Hosea to the Northern Kingdom of Israel, which rebelled in civil war when Jereboam revolted against Reheboam? There is much context to what God is saying and I wonder if you are ignorant of this pertinent information regarding this passage.

 

[timtofly]

Do you understand the context of this passage in Hosea? Have you read 1st and 2nd Chronicles to get the story behind what God is saying through Hosea to the Northern Kingdom of Israel, which rebelled in civil war when Jereboam revolted against Reheboam? There is much context to what God is saying and I wonder if you are ignorant of this pertinent information regarding this passage.

The Holy Spirit was at work in the creation of the heavens and earth. Do you understand the context of the Holy Spirit?

 

[atpollard]

Austin asked:

Do you understand the context of this passage in Hosea?

Tim answered:

The Holy Spirit was at work in the creation of the heavens and earth.

... I think that was a "No."

 

[AustinC]

Austin asked:


Tim answered:


... I think that was a "No."

LOL, I think you are correct. I tried...and in some ways I succeeded.

 

[timtofly]

LOL, I think you are correct. I tried...and in some ways I succeeded.

You succeeded in limiting God's understanding and total view of reality?

 

[AustinC]

You succeeded in limiting God's understanding and total view of reality?

Nope, but you succeeded in showing that you have no clue what God is saying through the prophet Hosea.
I do appreciate that you responded as it truly allowed everyone the opportunity to read your response.
Tim, I can see your zeal. It is, unfortunately, misinformed.

 

[timtofly]

Nope, but you succeeded in showing that you have no clue what God is saying through the prophet Hosea.
I do appreciate that you responded as it truly allowed everyone the opportunity to read your response.
Tim, I can see your zeal. It is, unfortunately, misinformed.

So yes, you limit God to Hosea, and cannot see the context of reality. You did not even give the poster a chance to explain their own post. That is not wrong, most online posters do it occasionally. It may be jumping to unnecessary conclusions, but I am glad you could correct my intentions, as you agree, the Holy Spirit is not limited to a single book in the Bible including Hosea. If you deny God's Sovereignty and that whirlwinds are only figments of Hosea's imagination, you can take that up with God directly.

 

[AustinC]

So yes, you limit God to Hosea, and cannot see the context of reality. You did not even give the poster a chance to explain their own post. That is not wrong, most online posters do it occasionally. It may be jumping to unnecessary conclusions, but I am glad you could correct my intentions, as you agree, the Holy Spirit is not limited to a single book in the Bible including Hosea. If you deny God's Sovereignty and that whirlwinds are only figments of Hosea's imagination, you can take that up with God directly.

Nope. Unlike you, I take what God tells us in the context in which he speaks to us.
What you have done is disregarded any meaning that God has provided in the text and you have made up your own imaginary story that has absolutely nothing to do with what God has actually said. What is wrong is that you are ignoring God and making yourself the speaker of truth by taking the Bible and making up a narrative as you go along.
The problem is not with God at all, nor with his Word. The problem is entirely with you. You are speaking falsely and abusing the text in an attempt to not admit you are wrong. Moreso, you create a false narrative that I am arguing with God and denying God his right to speak, but that is just an outright lie. It is you whom I am arguing with because you are utterly abusing God's word to create a false teaching that glorifies your self. You are the problem in this entire scenario as you misuse God's word for your own selfish reasons.

 

[timtofly]

Nope. Unlike you, I take what God tells us in the context in which he speaks to us.
What you have done is disregarded any meaning that God has provided in the text and you have made up your own imaginary story that has absolutely nothing to do with what God has actually said. What is wrong is that you are ignoring God and making yourself the speaker of truth by taking the Bible and making up a narrative as you go along.
The problem is not with God at all, nor with his Word. The problem is entirely with you. You are speaking falsely and abusing the text in an attempt to not admit you are wrong. Moreso, you create a false narrative that I am arguing with God and denying God his right to speak, but that is just an outright lie. It is you whom I am arguing with because you are utterly abusing God's word to create a false teaching that glorifies your self. You are the problem in this entire scenario as you misuse God's word for your own selfish reasons.

Could you tell me what my selfish reasons are?

 

[Alan Gross]

Could you tell me what my selfish reasons are?

To have your own 'bible', so that anything God Says proves Him wrong and you right?

 

[AustinC]

Could you tell me what my selfish reasons are?

I actually did that very thing in the post you quoted. You attempted to make God say something that God never said, by quoting Hosea out of context and then creating your own context out of Hosea in an attempt to prove an unsubstantiated assertion. Consequently, anyone reading your posts must assume you are abusing the Bible and not telling the truth. You have made your claims illegitimate by falsely applying Bible passages to your opinion when those Bible passages have nothing to do with your opinion.

 

[timtofly]

I actually did that very thing in the post you quoted. You attempted to make God say something that God never said, by quoting Hosea out of context and then creating your own context out of Hosea in an attempt to prove an unsubstantiated assertion. Consequently, anyone reading your posts must assume you are abusing the Bible and not telling the truth. You have made your claims illegitimate by falsely applying Bible passages to your opinion when those Bible passages have nothing to do with your opinion.

If that is the way you see things. Thank you for the reply.

I may one day know what my opinion is. Hopefully that is not it. It seems some of you have rules. That some of us fall very short of obtaining. That is not my opinion. That is the way you make what I post out to be. I stand in judgment at what you claim, as you seem to have some kind of authority to judge me. That is fine, my whole life has been one failure after another, so you are in great company with all that have judged me in my life. All I know is that I do not answer to man who can only kill me. I answer to God who called me His own and gave me the only job worth doing in life.