God is Completely Sovereign or in Control of EVERYTHING that happens. PT 2

[percho]

It is hard for me to follow what you are writing. However, one thing is clear. You started a thread which was suppose to be about Job and you are now talking about everything but the book of Job. To me, it seems like you are hijacking your own thread. If you don't want to talk about the book of Job, just start a new post.

Job was in the original thread relative to God being completely sovereign or in control of everything.

I believe God is both and allows life to happen as it does. God allowed Satan to do certain things. All that happened to Job and Job's reaction to everything that happen to him was according to the will of God yet IMHO the book is really about God and Satan with the ending being the destruction of Satan and his works through the redeemer of Job and including the redemption of the body Job. Job says, In my flesh I shall see God. When his change comes.

That is when Satan will be crushed. Cast in the lake of fire.

 

[1689Dave]

Abel died in Paradise. Where else could he go?

He was born again. How do we know this? Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit (salvation) and Hebrews 11 lists him among the faithful.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I'm Sorry there is nothing in your reference that suggest control. God knows all things as it explained as I read on but no control.
MB

My reference wsa Matthew 10:29. "Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will." If God is in control even of the death of a sparrow, how much more was He in control of the death of Abel and is in control of everything else?

Acts of the Apostles 2:23. 'Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified and put to death.'

Acts of the Apostles 4:27-28. 'For truly, against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.'

Yet

James 1:13. 'Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God;" for God cannot be tempted by evil nor does He Himself tempt anyone. Bur each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.'

If you cannot reconcile these statements read Romans 11:33-36.

I have no problem with them yet you have not shown that God is in control of every thing.
MB

Well, it seems to me that there is nothing that will convince you. But the utter sovereignty of God is shown pretty much everywhere in the Bible. Have a read of 2 Kings 7:2ff. God controls the winds and the waves; He can extend the length of a day (Joshua 10:14); He can cause darkness in the middle of the day (Mark 16:33); He controls the decisions of kings (Proverbs 21:1). And so on. His sovereignty extends to His showing of mercy ((Romans 9:14-16).

Such a God is worthy of all my worship, praise and obedience. I do not know what lies in store for me: poverty? cancer? Motor Neuron Disease? Alzheimer's? I think (hope!) I can face these things steadily if I know that they come from the hand of a loving God who will work even those things for my eternal good. But if God is not in control of these things and sits by wringing his hands impotently while these things happen to me, then He is not God. If He is not Lord of all, He is not Lord at all.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I did not say "God forces men to do what they don't want to do." I used the exact wording for the title of this thread.

God is Completely Sovereign or in Control of EVERYTHING that happens

I am not trying to straw man you or anyone else. That is why I used the word "control".

But yes, I agree, even John Calvin didn't believe "God forces men to do what they don't want to do". However, John Calvin did believe that God not only caused men to do everything they did, God also caused them to want to do it. You can read about this in his pamphlet "No Mere Permission."

That is of course what "in control of everything that happens" means to me in American English when relating to this particular subject. If you don't agree with John Calvin, then I was discussing something with someone who turned out not to be there and I apologize for wasting your time.

Because I am content for people to refer to me as a Calvinist does not mean that I endorse the whole of his theology; I do not. 'Calvinism' today means the sovereignty of God and Definite Atonement, and I agree with that so I have no problem with Calvin's understanding as you have outlined it above (Psalms 110:3a; Proverbs 21:1 etc.)

Rather than repeat myself, may I refer you to my post #43 to @MB above? I will just share one more verse with you.

Psalms 115:3. 'But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases.'

 

[Alan Gross]

The Godhead existed from Eternity, Perfectly Happy with The Perfection of One Another's Divine Person, within The One and Only, True and Living, Creator God's DIVINE NATURE.

God Created The Universe.

God Created and man was PHOPHECIED, by God,
that he would TRANSGRESS God's Commandments and DIE.

Adan's DEAD SPIRITUAL ESTATE is Illustrated, in Genesis 3:16, with God's First Mention of The Eternal Godhead's Plane for the Salvation of man, who sins, after being Presented with an opportunity to sin, having been Created, A.) Not Immunible, Like God, but, B.) Mutable and CAPABLE of SINNING, like Adam.

I sinned in Adam.

God Planned The Eternal Salvation of the sins of some within Mankind was AGRRED Upon by The Triune Godhead, LONG BEFORE ADAM PROVED HIS CREATED HUMANISE!!

If I had been Created as a man without sin, but allowed The Free Will to CHANGE, from the Natural State of sinlessness I was in, to OFFENDING & DISBEYING GOD, I would have.

I sinned in Adam.


.

Satan did not sin. Satan rebelled. Adam did not sin, he disobeyed one command, and then sin entered the world. Cain killed Abel and let sin into Paradise.

We have injustice, because that is the reward of our actions. Our best actions are filthy rags.

Worship is NOT what God commands or demands. That is a pagan religious notion. He does command not to place other gods before Him. Exodus 20:3-7
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

If worship comes out of us, it is because we were created to worship. For it is out of willingness. It even comes out of a soul in slave to sin.
Revelation 5:13
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

God simply wants trust and obedience.
Hebrews 11:6
"And without trusting, it is impossible to be well pleasing to God, because whoever approaches him must trust that he does exist and that he becomes a Rewarder to those who seek him out."

There are rules you make up as if they are Decrees.

Good for you.

If you take your car and scratch off in loose gravel that would also be just as impressive.

Maybe more.

Forget about adding all kinds of seriously goofy whims out of your mind to a discussion of any kind.

The definitions you assign are in your mind.

Only.

You're a Strawman making machine.

 

[MB]

My reference wsa Matthew 10:29. "Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will." If God is in control even of the death of a sparrow, how much more was He in control of the death of Abel and is in control of everything else?


Well, it seems to me that there is nothing that will convince you. But the utter sovereignty of God is shown pretty much everywhere in the Bible. Have a read of 2 Kings 7:2ff. God controls the winds and the waves; He can extend the length of a day (Joshua 10:14); He can cause darkness in the middle of the day (Mark 16:33); He controls the decisions of kings (Proverbs 21:1). And so on. His sovereignty extends to His showing of mercy ((Romans 9:14-16).

Such a God is worthy of all my worship, praise and obedience. I do not know what lies in store for me: poverty? cancer? Motor Neuron Disease? Alzheimer's? I think (hope!) I can face these things steadily if I know that they come from the hand of a loving God who will work even those things for my eternal good. But if God is not in control of these things and sits by wringing his hands impotently while these things happen to me, then He is not God. If He is not Lord of all, He is not Lord at all.

I don't think you understand. I have no problem with the word "Sovereignty" Though Calvinist on this board define it as absolute control with no allowances. If God didn't allow sin to exist then there would be no sin. God hates sin and allows it to exist for His reasons. If as one Calvinist told me if God allowed any man to ask for Salvation He would no longer be Sovereign because He would be giving up absolute control and allowing man to believe and be saved. This is why I challenge the use of this word.
The word it self is not a Biblical word that describes God. What doe is "All MIGHTY GOD" And He never looses any of His Power by allowance of sin or man deciding to believe in God
MB

 

[timtofly]

The Godhead existed from Eternity, Perfectly Happy with The Perfection of One Another's Divine Person, within The One and Only, True and Living, Creator God's DIVINE NATURE.

God Created The Universe.

God Created and man was PHOPHECIED, by God,
that he would TRANSGRESS God's Commandments and DIE.

Adan's DEAD SPIRITUAL ESTATE is Illustrated, in Genesis 3:16, with God's First Mention of The Eternal Godhead's Plane for the Salvation of man, who sins, after being Presented with an opportunity to sin, having been Created, A.) Not Immunible, Like God, but, B.) Mutable and CAPABLE of SINNING, like Adam.

I sinned in Adam.

God Planned The Eternal Salvation of the sins of some within Mankind was AGRRED Upon by The Triune Godhead, LONG BEFORE ADAM PROVED HIS CREATED HUMANISE!!

If I had been Created as a man without sin, but allowed The Free Will to CHANGE, from the Natural State of sinlessness I was in, to OFFENDING & DISBEYING GOD, I would have.

I sinned in Adam.


.


There are rules you make up as if they are Decrees.

Good for you.

If you take your car and scratch off in loose gravel that would also be just as impressive.

Maybe more.

Forget about adding all kinds of seriously goofy whims out of your mind to a discussion of any kind.

The definitions you assign are in your mind.

Only.

You're a Strawman making machine.

I apologize if my strawmen are as David, facing your Goliath strawmen.

 

[Alan Gross]

I apologize if my strawmen are as David, facing your Goliath strawmen.

They are as you exalting your throne above the Most High God.

I do not know of any evidence that your, "Satan didn't sin" typical Bible-Denying Strawman is not you exalting your throne above the Most High God and I do not know of any evidence that your, "Satan didn't sin" typical Bible-Denying Strawman is not you exalting your throne above the Most High God.

"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil". I John 3:8

 

[MB]

They are as you exalting your throne above the Most High God.

I do not know of any evidence that your, "Satan didn't sin" typical Bible-Denying Strawman is not you exalting your throne above the Most High God and I do not know of any evidence that your, "Satan didn't sin" typical Bible-Denying Strawman is not you exalting your throne above the Most High God.

"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil". I John 3:8

The reverse of your post is the truth you come here and pretend to be a scholar but in reality your no better than any one else. Because some disagrees with you . You insult them derogatory statements. Like a spoiled child
MB

 

[Alan Gross]

The reverse of your post is the truth you come here and pretend to be a scholar but in reality your no better than any one else. Because some disagrees with you . You insult them derogatory statements. Like a spoiled child
MB

I do not know of any evidence that your, "reverse of your post is the truth you come here and pretend to be a scholar but in reality your no better than any one else. Because some disagrees with you . You insult them derogatory statements. Like a spoiled child" is unable to be substantiated any more than, "Satan didn't sin" being a typical Bible-Denying Strawman that exemplifies an finite attempt by you to exalt your throne above the Most High God and I do not know of any evidence that your, "Satan didn't sin" typical Bible-Denying Strawman is not you exalting your throne above the Most High God, or that, the "reverse of your post is the truth you come here and pretend to be a scholar but in reality your no better than any one else. Because some disagrees with you . You insult them derogatory statements. Like a spoiled child."

U?

 

[MB]

I do not know of any evidence that your, "reverse of your post is the truth you come here and pretend to be a scholar but in reality your no better than any one else. Because some disagrees with you . You insult them derogatory statements. Like a spoiled child" is unable to be substantiated any more than, "Satan didn't sin" being a typical Bible-Denying Strawman that exemplifies an finite attempt by you to exalt your throne above the Most High God and I do not know of any evidence that your, "Satan didn't sin" typical Bible-Denying Strawman is not you exalting your throne above the Most High God, or that, the "reverse of your post is the truth you come here and pretend to be a scholar but in reality your no better than any one else. Because some disagrees with you . You insult them derogatory statements. Like a spoiled child."

U?

See what I mean the Bible say we should have nothing to do with people who are so easily angered.
MB

 

[Alan Gross]

See what I mean the Bible say we should have nothing to do with people who are so easily angered.
MB

I do not know of any evidence of a negative averment containing anger and I do not believe any evidence exists that my negative averments had an element of anger associated with them, to any gradation, that could be detected.

I do believe there are Instructions Given in The Bible concerning assertions such as, "a rock is not dead", or "Satan did not sin".

 

[timtofly]

They are as you exalting your throne above the Most High God.

I do not know of any evidence that your, "Satan didn't sin" typical Bible-Denying Strawman is not you exalting your throne above the Most High God and I do not know of any evidence that your, "Satan didn't sin" typical Bible-Denying Strawman is not you exalting your throne above the Most High God.

"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil". I John 3:8

God counts rebellion as sin. God counts our thoughts as sin. Sin is how God views us, but that is not how we define sin. We define it as a noun that prevents us from being. We are sinners, because that is our condition, but saying sin is what we do is missing the point, and we get false theology lie Reformed theology. No there is no verse that prophecies Reformed theology as a thing to avoid.

Sin and sinning is the result of our choices (thoughts) and actions. It is the default term for evil. We, in Adam, are forced to know what evil is. In Christ, God works AL things out for His Good. In Adam, all things work out for evil only.

That does not mean some can only do evil all the time and nothing good. Nor does it mean some can only do good all the time and never wrong, or evil.

Satan rebelled in thought only. He could not act, unless he asked God. I see no Scripture that claims God forces Satan to act, without asking first. That is the whole point of Satan thinking he can be our adversary, to constantly point out our faults to God. Satan can also put false thoughts into our head, tempting us. Some humans just dwell on those thoughts. Unless you can prove we just sit and manufacture thoughts to tempt ourselves.

Humans are different than angels, they are free to act without asking God first. Until the Atonement on the Cross, it was our actions that were counted as sin. Now it is oUr very thoughts that are sin. What we allow in our life puts thoughts into our mind. Then the brain either randomly keeps a steady stream of thought going, or we can have the mind of Christ. Some thoughts are sent outside of physical ability, via the spiritual avenue, that God forbids of those who follow God.

Free to act as we want is not free will. Free will is the ability to make decisions against our will. If one acts against their will, they do have to think about it first. Unless they are demon posessed, and have lost control of their ability to do anything. No angel is free to do do as they please. Not even if they are given control of the whole earth.

Even dictators are not free to go outside of physical laws. They are free to destroy millions of lives, the environment. They cannot destroy the earth, nor even life on earth.

 

[Alan Gross]

God counts rebellion as sin. God counts our thoughts as sin. Sin is how God views us, but that is not how we define sin. We define it as a noun that prevents us from being. We are sinners, because that is our condition, but saying sin is what we do is missing the point, and we get false theology lie Reformed theology. No there is no verse that prophecies Reformed theology as a thing to avoid.

Sin and sinning is the result of our choices (thoughts) and actions. It is the default term for evil. We, in Adam, are forced to know what evil is. In Christ, God works AL things out for His Good. In Adam, all things work out for evil only.

That does not mean some can only do evil all the time and nothing good. Nor does it mean some can only do good all the time and never wrong, or evil.

Satan rebelled in thought only. He could not act, unless he asked God. I see no Scripture that claims God forces Satan to act, without asking first. That is the whole point of Satan thinking he can be our adversary, to constantly point out our faults to God. Satan can also put false thoughts into our head, tempting us. Some humans just dwell on those thoughts. Unless you can prove we just sit and manufacture thoughts to tempt ourselves.

Humans are different than angels, they are free to act without asking God first. Until the Atonement on the Cross, it was our actions that were counted as sin. Now it is oUr very thoughts that are sin. What we allow in our life puts thoughts into our mind. Then the brain either randomly keeps a steady stream of thought going, or we can have the mind of Christ. Some thoughts are sent outside of physical ability, via the spiritual avenue, that God forbids of those who follow God.

Free to act as we want is not free will. Free will is the ability to make decisions against our will. If one acts against their will, they do have to think about it first. Unless they are demon posessed, and have lost control of their ability to do anything. No angel is free to do do as they please. Not even if they are given control of the whole earth.

Even dictators are not free to go outside of physical laws. They are free to destroy millions of lives, the environment. They cannot destroy the earth, nor even life on earth.

Satan did not sin. ... Adam did not sin,...

Worship is NOT what God commands or demands.

If worship comes out of us, it is because we were created to worship. For it is out of willingness. It even comes out of a soul in slave to sin.


God simply wants trust and obedience.
Hebrews 11:6
"

Hebrews 11:6, trust and obedience from Saved souls.

The other ideas are blaspheme.

Revelation reference was of Saved souls and no one is created as a Natural sinner to Worship God they can not know and only hate.

 

[MB]

I do not know of any evidence of a negative averment containing anger and I do not believe any evidence exists that my negative averments had an element of anger associated with them, to any gradation, that could be detected.

I do believe there are Instructions Given in The Bible concerning assertions such as, "a rock is not dead", or "Satan did not sin".

Maybe you should read Proverbs;

Pro_22:24 Make no friendship with an angry man; and with a furious man thou shalt not go:
Pro_29:22 An angry man stirreth up strife, and a furious man aboundeth in transgression.

MB

 

[AustinC]

God counts rebellion as sin. God counts our thoughts as sin. Sin is how God views us, but that is not how we define sin. We define it as a noun that prevents us from being. We are sinners, because that is our condition, but saying sin is what we do is missing the point, and we get false theology lie Reformed theology. No there is no verse that prophecies Reformed theology as a thing to avoid.

Sin and sinning is the result of our choices (thoughts) and actions. It is the default term for evil. We, in Adam, are forced to know what evil is. In Christ, God works AL things out for His Good. In Adam, all things work out for evil only.

That does not mean some can only do evil all the time and nothing good. Nor does it mean some can only do good all the time and never wrong, or evil.

Satan rebelled in thought only. He could not act, unless he asked God. I see no Scripture that claims God forces Satan to act, without asking first. That is the whole point of Satan thinking he can be our adversary, to constantly point out our faults to God. Satan can also put false thoughts into our head, tempting us. Some humans just dwell on those thoughts. Unless you can prove we just sit and manufacture thoughts to tempt ourselves.

Humans are different than angels, they are free to act without asking God first. Until the Atonement on the Cross, it was our actions that were counted as sin. Now it is oUr very thoughts that are sin. What we allow in our life puts thoughts into our mind. Then the brain either randomly keeps a steady stream of thought going, or we can have the mind of Christ. Some thoughts are sent outside of physical ability, via the spiritual avenue, that God forbids of those who follow God.

Free to act as we want is not free will. Free will is the ability to make decisions against our will. If one acts against their will, they do have to think about it first. Unless they are demon posessed, and have lost control of their ability to do anything. No angel is free to do do as they please. Not even if they are given control of the whole earth.

Even dictators are not free to go outside of physical laws. They are free to destroy millions of lives, the environment. They cannot destroy the earth, nor even life on earth.

Did Satan ask God if he could form a rebellion of angels against God first before he was free to act?

Humans are different than angels in that God chose to graciously atone for human sin while God has shown no grace to angels. Rebellious angels are dead in their trespasses and sins and can never be redeemed. Rebellious humans can be redeemed, not because the human chooses God to redeem him, but because God chooses to redeem humans.

Now, the question is this: Does God choose to redeem all humanity or a selection of humanity?

The second question follows: If God chooses only a selection, is God evil for choosing only a selection and not all?

 

[Alan Gross]

Maybe you should read Proverbs;

Pro_22:24 Make no friendship with an angry man; and with a furious man thou shalt not go:
Pro_29:22 An angry man stirreth up strife, and a furious man aboundeth in transgression.

MB

I do not know of any evidence of a negative averment containing anger and I do not believe any evidence exists that my negative averments had an element of anger associated with them, to any gradation, that could be detected.

I do believe there are Instructions Given in The Bible concerning assertions such as, "a rock is not dead", or "Satan did not sin"....

and these random, randomizations of radom wild guesses, from just timtofly,

..."saying sin is what we do is missing the point", "That does not mean some can only do evil all the time and nothing good. Nor does it mean some can only do good all the time and never wrong, or evil", "Satan rebelled in thought only. He could not act, unless he asked God", on and on and on.

"Some thoughts are sent outside of physical ability, via the spiritual avenue, that God forbids of those who follow God.

"Free to act as we want is not free will. Free will is the ability to make decisions against our will. If one acts against their will, they do have to think about it first."

Has to be disappointing to you two, to know that you are guessing and making random thoughts up, like that I'm angry and that is an issue.

Guess again.

Use the Bible where it will do some good, by turning it around.

 

[timtofly]

Did Satan ask God if he could form a rebellion of angels against God first before he was free to act?

Humans are different than angels in that God chose to graciously atone for human sin while God has shown no grace to angels. Rebellious angels are dead in their trespasses and sins and can never be redeemed. Rebellious humans can be redeemed, not because the human chooses God to redeem him, but because God chooses to redeem humans.

Now, the question is this: Does God choose to redeem all humanity or a selection of humanity?

The second question follows: If God chooses only a selection, is God evil for choosing only a selection and not all?

Is God evil for creating angels?

God put all of humanity in the Lamb's book of life, because the Atonement covered all sin. Since it covered all sin, all humanity was named beneficiary.

When humans decide they know better than God, God does not force them to change. Can you force a person to keep doing what they enjoy? There does come a point where humans reject God totally. So they do not have to figure things out in their mind, God takes away any ability to change. They never have to struggle over the results or consequences of their actions. They are a sociopath in modern terminology.

 

[JPPT1974]

Yeah as God is in control. When we give up control to Him, He is working in us. And that as long as we put Christ first and foremost in our lives. He wants us to focus on Him. As just do so in things that do not offend others in particular Christ. Have fun but do not offend

 

[AustinC]

Is God evil for creating angels?

You are trying to change the subject and ignore what I asked you.

God put all of humanity in the Lamb's book of life, because the Atonement covered all sin. Since it covered all sin, all humanity was named beneficiary.

You make an unsubstantiated assertion here. The Bible doesn't teach this. If it did, you would never have to choose Jesus and Jesus would never have needed to die. Humanity would be fully atoned and we would just live in paradise.

When humans decide they know better than God, God does not force them to change. Can you force a person to keep doing what they enjoy? There does come a point where humans reject God totally. So they do not have to figure things out in their mind, God takes away any ability to change. They never have to struggle over the results or consequences of their actions. They are a sociopath in modern terminology.

This is a form of Pelagianism which has been considered heresy since Pelagian voiced it.

So, here was my question.

Does God choose to redeem all humanity or a selection of humanity?

You answered that all humanity is saved at birth, their names are written in the book of life and Jesus atonement covers all humanities sins. (That is universalism by the way.)

The second question follows: If God chooses only a selection, is God evil for choosing only a selection and not all?

You reject this question in favor of universalism, with the caveat that humans can reject God (even though all their sins, including the sin of rejection, has been fully atoned for by the blood of Christ Jesus).

Tim, your theology is entirely based upon a false premise that is not supported in scripture, by God. You can continue to argue, but every orthodox believer here at the BB will know you have rejected the teaching of God passed down over millenniums.