God is Completely Sovereign or in Control of EVERYTHING that happens. PT 2

[Alan Gross]

God exists therefore there must be pain and suffering . . . an interesting hypothesis, but I don't think it is true. I see nothing in the Bible stating this type of logic.



Humans were not created to worship God. Genesis 1:26



Does God control everything, including Humans, or does God allow things to sin? Which is it? You seem to be confused.



What is according to the good pleasure of his will is that those who put their faith in Jesus will be adopted. Ephesians 1:5.

Also wisdom and understanding Ephesians 1:8,9

Where does it say that suffering, sins, the Satan, etc. are "according the the pleasure of his good will"?



You mean the god you haven't quoted a single verse of scripture about?



This isn't from Job.



The first part of the sentence is from scripture. The second part is not in any scripture I know of.



I think you have half a verse of scripture now.

Thank you for trying so hard to not say anything.

 

[MartyF]

Who was in charge when the Lord Jesus Christ was killed?

While the idiom "in charge" is a vague term, I'm assuming that means that you believe "God controls everything" since that is the title of the thread. If you mean "in charge" the same way Trump is "in charge", I would say you have gone too far in the opposite direction. Please try to stop using vague idioms.

1 Corinthians 2:8 CSB
None of the rulers of this age knew this wisdom, because if they had known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Paul does not attribute the crucifixion to God. One could say God tricked them, but that is not the same as God controlling every aspect of it like how far the nails when in.

Acts 2:23 CSB
Though he was delivered up according to God’s determined plan and foreknowledge, you used lawless people to nail him to a cross and kill him.

Jesus delivering himself to the powers was part of God's plan. At no point does the passage say that God controlled the lawless people who nailed Jesus to the cross.

Acts 4:27-28 ESV
for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, [28] to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

It's a difficult passage in translation, but it was Jesus, whom God anointed to do whatever His hand and His plan had predestined to take place. This is clear when taken in context with the rest of the Bible.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Who was in charge when Cain killed Abel?

Who was in charge when the Lord Jesus Christ was killed?

While the idiom "in charge" is a vague term, I'm assuming that means that you believe "God controls everything" since that is the title of the thread. If you mean "in charge" the same way Trump is "in charge", I would say you have gone too far in the opposite direction. Please try to stop using vague idioms.

Come on, man! Let's have a sensible discussion!

 

[1689Dave]

Who was in charge when Cain Killed Able? If you say God was then God is responsible for the murder of Able. The truth is Cain acted alone on his own jealous emotions. It's really sad that Calvinist tend to make God out to the God they want instead of the God He is.
MB

God punishes all with death. He would not be good if he did not. In the case of Abel and elect believers, he uses death as a means of our escaping to Heaven.

 

[MartyF]

Come on, man! Let's have a sensible discussion!

Who was in charge when Cain Killed Able?

Not my quote. Though you are right. MB was the first to use the idiom - not you. I apologize for the false accusation.

I still hate idioms like this because the meaning is so varied, I spend too much time trying to find out what the other person actually means.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Not my quote. Though you are right. MB was the first to use the idiom - not you. I apologize for the false accusation.

I still hate idioms like this because the meaning is so varied, I spend too much time trying to find out what the other person actually means.

My apologies for confusing you with @MB. Let's look at the rest of your post.

1 Corinthians 2:8 CSB
None of the rulers of this age knew this wisdom, because if they had known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Paul does not attribute the crucifixion to God. One could say God tricked them, but that is not the same as God controlling every aspect of it like how far the nails when in.

I'm not sure of the point you're making here. The wisdom of God is hidden, and He reveals it to whom He will. And although these rulers crucified our Lord, never the less it 'Pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief.'

Acts 2:23 CSB
Though he was delivered up according to God’s determined plan and foreknowledge, you used lawless people to nail him to a cross and kill him.

Jesus delivering himself to the powers was part of God's plan. At no point does the passage say that God controlled the lawless people who nailed Jesus to the cross.

Lawless men did what God's plan had determined. Neither I nor any Calvinist that I'm aware of believes that God forces men to do what they don't want to do. They did their will upon the Lord Jesus, and were culpable for doing it but none the less they were doing exactly what God had determined should happen (Luke 22:22).

Acts 4:27-28 ESV
for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, [28] to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

It's a difficult passage in translation, but it was Jesus, whom God anointed to do whatever His hand and His plan had predestined to take place. This is clear when taken in context with the rest of the Bible.

No. Your exegesis is grammatically flawed.
'Jesus' is in the accusative (Gk. Iesoun). Herod and the others are in the Nominative. They are the subject both of the main sentence and the subordinate clause. They gathered against our Lord to do the very thing that God's wisdom and mercy had determined should take place.
That does not mean that Herod & Co were unwilling participants; they followed their own wicked impulses; but what they meant for evil, God overruled for good (cf. Genesis 50:20).

 

[percho]

Who was in charge when Cain Killed Able? If you say God was then God is responsible for the murder of Able. The truth is Cain acted alone on his own jealous emotions. It's really sad that Calvinist tend to make God out to the God they want instead of the God He is.
MB

not as Cain -- of the evil one he was, and he did slay his brother, and wherefore did he slay him? because his works were evil, and those of his brother righteous. 1 John 3:12

And Adam again knoweth his wife, and she beareth a son, and calleth his name Seth, 'for God hath appointed for me another seed instead of Abel:' for Cain had slain him. Gen 4:25

And the man knew Eve his wife, and she conceiveth and beareth Cain, and saith, 'I have gotten a man by Jehovah;' and she addeth to bear his brother, even Abel. And Abel is feeding a flock, and Cain hath been servant of the ground. Gen 4:1,2

And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world; Rev 13:8

Slain; If Adam should sin and bring, the death, to man, to the Son of Man, Christ or because he was going to?

Is the purpose of Seth, instead of Abel, unto the sons of God ? Gal 4:4-7 and when the fulness of time did come, [the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world;] God sent forth His Son, come of a woman, come under law, that those under law he may redeem, that the adoption of sons we may receive; and because ye are sons, God did send forth the spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, 'Abba, Father!' so that thou art no more a servant, but a son, and if a son, also an heir of God through Christ.

Through? Does death and life out of death have anything to do with, through?

 

[percho]

Job is not about the characters. Job is about the questions raised by Job.

The narrative is simply there to set up the questions.

The Book doesn't really answer the big questions raised which are "Why does injustice occur?", "Why do good things happen to bad people?", "Why is there suffering in the world?", " Why do bad things happen to good people.", etc.

The questions "Is Job about God and man?", "Is Job about Satan and Man?" or " Is Job about God and Satan?" make as much sense as asking "Is Proverbs about Solomon and Agur?" or "Is Proverbs about King Lemuel and his mother?". Yeah, they're in Proverbs, but that is not what it's about.

for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it -- in hope,
And we have known that to those loving God all things do work together for good, to those who are called according to purpose; because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren;

Does all the above apply to Job? for to vanity was the creation [including Job in the loins of Adam] made subject - In Hope? conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren;
Firstborn? And himself is the head of the body -- the assembly -- who is a beginning, first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all things -- himself -- first,

he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil; 1 John 3:8

I can not understand how no one can see and understand that when God said let there be light that death and resurrection, life, out of death, would be the means of destroying the devil and his works, bringing about the new heavens and new earth in which there would be no darkness.

In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth -- the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep,

There already needs to be - new heavens and new earth

Yes or No

 

[percho]

Who was in charge when the Lord Jesus Christ was killed? Acts of the Apostles 4:27-28 will help you (and 2:23).
The same applied with Cain and Abel.

Amen

 

[MB]

not as Cain -- of the evil one he was, and he did slay his brother, and wherefore did he slay him? because his works were evil, and those of his brother righteous. 1 John 3:12

And Adam again knoweth his wife, and she beareth a son, and calleth his name Seth, 'for God hath appointed for me another seed instead of Abel:' for Cain had slain him. Gen 4:25

And the man knew Eve his wife, and she conceiveth and beareth Cain, and saith, 'I have gotten a man by Jehovah;' and she addeth to bear his brother, even Abel. And Abel is feeding a flock, and Cain hath been servant of the ground. Gen 4:1,2

And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world; Rev 13:8

Slain; If Adam should sin and bring, the death, to man, to the Son of Man, Christ or because he was going to?

Is the purpose of Seth, instead of Abel, unto the sons of God ? Gal 4:4-7 and when the fulness of time did come, [the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world;] God sent forth His Son, come of a woman, come under law, that those under law he may redeem, that the adoption of sons we may receive; and because ye are sons, God did send forth the spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, 'Abba, Father!' so that thou art no more a servant, but a son, and if a son, also an heir of God through Christ.

Through? Does death and life out of death have anything to do with, through?

If Cain was of the devil then He was under the control of the devil.Out of God's control.
MB

 

[Martin Marprelate]

If Cain was of the devil then He was under the control of the devil.Out of God's control.
MB

Nothing is out of God's control. The Lord Jesus told the 'Jews,' "You are of your father the devil (John 8:44), but they were not out of God's control either. 'My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure........Indeed, I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it' (Isaiah 46:10-11).
Satan is a dog on a chain. He can go just so far and no further (Job 1:12; 2:6; James 4:7).

 

[MB]

Apart from my last post, you might try Matthew 10:29.

I'm Sorry there is nothing in your reference that suggest control. God knows all things as it explained as I read on but no control.
MB

 

[MB]

Acts of the Apostles 2:23. 'Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified and put to death.'

Acts of the Apostles 4:27-28. 'For truly, against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.'

Yet

James 1:13. 'Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God;" for God cannot be tempted by evil nor does He Himself tempt anyone. Bur each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.'

If you cannot reconcile these statements read Romans 11:33-36.

I have no problem with them yet you have not shown that God is in control of every thing.
MB

 

[MB]

This is a really secular question, void of any concept of God and his creation. You are equating the cause agent as being a chess player who plays with idols of wood, ivory or some other element.
Such a poorly worded question is filled with the bias of the OP. Therefore the OP should answer his own question.

I never brought up Chess someone else did I just answered there post.. How ever it is a game about controlling your opponents moves until Check mate. God can do what ever He wants but I don't believe He does this at all. God's work is all about influence. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Depending on the determination behind it.
MB

 

[timtofly]

You said there was 'No' answer.

Injustice happened to Job and good things happen to bad people and there is there suffering in the world, because there is A God of Creation, who Created Satan who sinned and was left in that estate and God Created Human Beings who God Allowed to sin, also, According to The Good Pleasure of His Will.

That is the Only God there is.

God Presents Himself, as THAT God, in Job, and Job, just as ALL ARE COMMANDED, was Given the life in his flesh and his Saved soul, "WORSHIPPED GOD."

The presence of sin in the natural Estate of ALL CHILDREN of ADAM is the reason there is suffering in the world.

God rains on the just and the unjust and, at times, allows the wicked to prosper.

God is THAT God.

The message of Job is that We Either Worship God in this Life, under any circumstances brought about by sin, or the Devil, or we don't know God, or Christianity through The Holy Spirit, and Jesus Atonement for our SINS, specifically, as an individual, in The New Birth from Above. .

Satan did not sin. Satan rebelled. Adam did not sin, he disobeyed one command, and then sin entered the world. Cain killed Abel and let sin into Paradise.

We have injustice, because that is the reward of our actions. Our best actions are filthy rags.

Worship is NOT what God commands or demands. That is a pagan religious notion. He does command not to place other gods before Him. Exodus 20:3-7
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

If worship comes out of us, it is because we were created to worship. For it is out of willingness. It even comes out of a soul in slave to sin.
Revelation 5:13
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

God simply wants trust and obedience.
Hebrews 11:6
"And without trusting, it is impossible to be well pleasing to God, because whoever approaches him must trust that he does exist and that he becomes a Rewarder to those who seek him out."

 

[timtofly]

God punishes all with death. He would not be good if he did not. In the case of Abel and elect believers, he uses death as a means of our escaping to Heaven.

Abel died in Paradise. Where else could he go?

 

[timtofly]

If Cain was of the devil then He was under the control of the devil.Out of God's control.
MB

Cain was in control. That is the problem. Cain was listening to his own thoughts.

Satan was like Cain listening to his own thoughts.

They were two of a kind, but not kinfolk. Cain was a son of God. Satan was an angel. They both were obsessive compulsive, and thought too much. It is not a bad thing, but they could not keep their thoughts under control and both let their thoughts control them, instead of them being in control of their thoughts.

 

[MartyF]

Neither I nor any Calvinist that I'm aware of believes that God forces men to do what they don't want to do.

I'll start with this.

God controlled the lawless people who nailed Jesus to the cross.

I did not say "God forces men to do what they don't want to do." I used the exact wording for the title of this thread.

God is Completely Sovereign or in Control of EVERYTHING that happens

I am not trying to straw man you or anyone else. That is why I used the word "control".

But yes, I agree, even John Calvin didn't believe "God forces men to do what they don't want to do". However, John Calvin did believe that God not only caused men to do everything they did, God also caused them to want to do it. You can read about this in his pamphlet "No Mere Permission."

That is of course what "in control of everything that happens" means to me in American English when relating to this particular subject. If you don't agree with John Calvin, then I was discussing something with someone who turned out not to be there and I apologize for wasting your time.

 

[AustinC]

God can do what ever He wants but I don't believe He does this at all.

God doesn't do what he wills?

God's work is all about influence. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Depending on the determination behind it.
MB.

God is just a persuader? Sometimes he is a good persuader and sometimes he is a poor persuader? This all depends on how determined God is, at any point in time, regarding the amount and verocity of persuasion he brings? God sometimes brings his A game and sometimes he brings his B, C, D or F game?
Perhaps God is Michael Jordan?

 

[MartyF]

for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it -- in hope,
And we have known that to those loving God all things do work together for good, to those who are called according to purpose; because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren;

Does all the above apply to Job? for to vanity was the creation [including Job in the loins of Adam] made subject - In Hope? conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren;
Firstborn? And himself is the head of the body -- the assembly -- who is a beginning, first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all things -- himself -- first,

he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil; 1 John 3:8

I can not understand how no one can see and understand that when God said let there be light that death and resurrection, life, out of death, would be the means of destroying the devil and his works, bringing about the new heavens and new earth in which there would be no darkness.

In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth -- the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep,

There already needs to be - new heavens and new earth

Yes or No

It is hard for me to follow what you are writing. However, one thing is clear. You started a thread which was suppose to be about Job and you are now talking about everything but the book of Job. To me, it seems like you are hijacking your own thread. If you don't want to talk about the book of Job, just start a new post.