Featured Predestination

Continually sins. And "sin" is a whole boat-load more than murder, fornication, and drugs...

 

I don't contradict what John says. I contradict your application of it. But again, I can hardly keep up with all the topics.
Start a thread on it if you wish, and I'll reply.
For now, suffice it to point out, yet again, you and I and all believers are technically guilty of what John describes.

 

This is false doctrine, George. And you're right, it's a whole lot more. John specifically mentioned hating brothers which encompasses a lot more.

The truth is, salvation changes us. It's gradual and takes time, but true Christians change and turn from their sin. We struggle with sin. That's the mark of a true Christian. There's a good discussion to be had on how much, how fast, etc. I acknowledge that. But to directly contradict John, and say Christians continually habitually sin, is something you need to reconsider.

I try not to take statements made on this forum too definitively, as sometimes things aren't aways stated exactly as they're meant.

 

And sinning is also a whole boat-load more than hating one's brothers.

I'm not contradicting John. You may think I am, but that doesn't mean I am.
For now, I'm going about my answer from a different angle, because this is not the thread.

If I say that Christians don't continually sin, I would also be contradicting scriptures, because sinless perfection is not possible while we're stuck in this flesh (Ro.7). And it's not about striving. While we strive we still sin. John didn't say an unbeliever doesn't strive whereas a Christian at least strives. He said an unbeliever sins. Well, you and I sin...constantly. Are we unbelievers? I'm trying to point out therefore that maybe you are misapplying John's words.
Anyway, I'm all contended out for today and must prepare for Sunday. If you wish, begin the thread.

 

It doesn't say that in the NASB translation and you have already dismissed any resort to the Greek in John 6:44, so that probably rules out looking at the Hebrew in Hosea.

The verse you used to prove that John 6:44 must mean that and cannot mean "draw" in the English meaning of the word does not say or prove that, so this statement remains your unsupported opinion.

 

It's nice to know what the NASB says but I prefer quoting the words of the living God as they stand:

Hos 11:3 I taught Ephraim also to go, taking them by their arms; but they knew not that I healed them.
Hos 11:4 I drew them with cords of a man, with bands of love: and I was to them as they that take off the yoke on their jaws, and I laid meat unto them.
Hos 11:5 He shall not return into the land of Egypt, but the Assyrian shall be his king, because they refused to return.

 

The words of the living God as they stand ...

Hos 11:3 ואנכי תרגלתי לאפרים קחם על־זרועתיו ולא ידעו כי רפאתים׃
Hos 11:4 בחבלי אדם אמשכם בעבתות אהבה ואהיה להם כמרימי על על לחיהם ואט אליו אוכיל׃
Hos 11:5לא ישוב אל־ארץ מצרים ואשור הוא מלכו כי מאנו לשוב׃

... are of little use to most people.

If you want the words of the living God as they stand, start with these ...

Jhn 6:44 οὐδεὶς δύναται ἐλθεῖν πρός με ἐὰν μὴ ὁ πατὴρ ὁ πέμψας με ἑλκύσῃ αὐτόν κἀγὼ ἀναστήσω αὐτὸν ἐν τῇ ἐσχάτῃ ἡμέρᾳ

... with special attention to this one: ἑλκύσῃ = G1670 = to drag (literally or figuratively)

 

Fixed that for you.

God not "TRY"; God "DOES"!

 

I think we both know that even if I did address your points, we would end up disagreeing anyway.

For the record, I didn't come to my position on the Scriptures lightly, and I'm sure you did not, either.
I came to mine through much study of His word over almost two decades now, and I can say for certain that it will never go back to where I was when I started...

"Traditionalism / Provisionism",
which is what I was taught in Independent Baptist churches after I came to the Lord during the preaching of His word in 1978.
When a brother in the Lord gave me Ephesians 1:4-5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 and Romans 8:28-30 to read in 2003, it somehow snapped me out of 25 years of being too lazy to study and always being content to let my pastor feed me all the time.
I "discovered" that there was a whole lot more to how and why God saves His people than what I was being presented with every Sunday morning, Sunday night and Wednesday night.

Rather than make this post even longer, I'll say this:

There's a lot in that Book that, if read and taken seriously, should make for a very sober believer in Jesus Christ.
Contrary to what some seem to believe and teach, the Lord is not some "grandfatherly being" who sits on His throne and draws an imaginary line in the sand that He will not cross with regard to mankind and our strength of will.

Quite the contrary...
He is unlike any other god that we can possibly imagine.
Nebuchanezzar had this to say about Him:

" And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom [is] from generation to generation:
35 and all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and [among] the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
36 At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.
37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works [are] truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase." ( Daniel 4:34-37 ).

I know that were it not for His mercy and grace to me, a sinner, I would be a very proud man.
Were it not for Him telling me about election, predestination, calling, justification and glorification, I would continue to think that my belief of the Gospel was what saved me, instead of my belief of the Gospel being one of the evidences that He saved me.

I no longer think that my faith and belief were what saved me, and I praise Him for even bothering with me at all...
when He could have simply let me pile up sins unrepentantly and reserved me to everlasting punishment without revealing Himself to me through the preaching of His word.

I can see that we will probably always disagree on this subject of election, George.

But equally as always, I wish you well sir, even though we do disagree...
and may He bless you greatly in many ways.

 

You're going from bad to worse. You are directly contradicting John. There's no debate. He says the one who habitually and continually sins does not know God. You're saying the exact opposite. I believe him.

 

There are a number of people I disagree with on this board but with whom I can at least have an honest conversation whereby they take into account everything I've said without seeking to wrest it, not being in a rush to judge me and show off how they are better.

 

John states that the saved person will not now have a habitual and continual lifestyle of still being in sin, as we will still sin, but not as our habit!

 

Are you saying that saved persons still shall be sinning at times?

 

You still sin as a habit, as do I, as do all Christians.

 

not though as a regular habitual practice?