Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Why are you into the wacky stuff ?
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The Covenant of Redemption
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Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Is ' persevere to the end ' the Gospel ?Strange...
I don't see anywhere that this summary is anything less than biblical:
Perseverance of the Saints
"All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end."
- Source: Calvinism and Arminianism comparison
I'm not sure what you see when reading this, but I see several details that have absolutely nothing to do with our works, not even remotely:
1) Chosen by God.
2) Redeemed by Christ.
3) Given faith by the Spirit.
4) Kept in their faith by the power of Almighty God.
5) Because of these, they persevere to the end in their faith.
Why?
Because it's all of God and none of man.
But I do know of many who tend to confuse the term "persevere" with something similar in "Wesleyan" theology, in that someone must persevere in their walk and in their faith, or risk losing their salvation.
As I see it, this "Perseverance" could not be any farther from that.
That said, it seems I've wandered quite a bit.
This thread is about the "Covenant of Redemption", which I tend not to place in the realm of definite covenants...
But if someone were to press me on it, I would say that yes, there is an agreement between the Son and the Father concerning His bride, the elect.
The Father determined that He would send the Son before the world began, and Jesus Christ was manifest in these last times for them ( 1 Peter 1:20 );
The Son then agreed to do the will of the Father ( John 6:38 ) by going to the cross and dying for them ( Matthew 1:21, John 10:11, Isaiah 53:8 ).
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
All 5 are unbiblical . Thats bold to say I know . But they are completely false . Thats quite a thing to say considering the size of Calvernism .Strange...
I don't see anywhere that this summary is anything less than biblical:
Perseverance of the Saints
"All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end."
- Source: Calvinism and Arminianism comparison
I'm not sure what you see when reading this, but I see several details that have absolutely nothing to do with our works, not even remotely:
1) Chosen by God.
2) Redeemed by Christ.
3) Given faith by the Spirit.
4) Kept in their faith by the power of Almighty God.
5) Because of these, they persevere to the end in their faith.
Why?
Because it's all of God and none of man.
But I do know of many who tend to confuse the term "persevere" with something similar in "Wesleyan" theology, in that someone must persevere in their walk and in their faith, or risk losing their salvation.
As I see it, this "Perseverance" could not be any farther from that.
That said, it seems I've wandered quite a bit.
This thread is about the "Covenant of Redemption", which I tend not to place in the realm of definite covenants...
But if someone were to press me on it, I would say that yes, there is an agreement between the Son and the Father concerning His bride, the elect.
The Father determined that He would send the Son before the world began, and Jesus Christ was manifest in these last times for them ( 1 Peter 1:20 );
The Son then agreed to do the will of the Father ( John 6:38 ) by going to the cross and dying for them ( Matthew 1:21, John 10:11, Isaiah 53:8 ).
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Strange...
I don't see anywhere that this summary is anything less than biblical:
Perseverance of the Saints
"All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end."
- Source: Calvinism and Arminianism comparison
I'm not sure what you see when reading this, but I see several details that have absolutely nothing to do with our works, not even remotely:
1) Chosen by God.
2) Redeemed by Christ.
3) Given faith by the Spirit.
4) Kept in their faith by the power of Almighty God.
5) Because of these, they persevere to the end in their faith.
Why?
Because it's all of God and none of man.
But I do know of many who tend to confuse the term "persevere" with something similar in "Wesleyan" theology, in that someone must persevere in their walk and in their faith, or risk losing their salvation.
As I see it, this "Perseverance" could not be any farther from that.
That said, it seems I've wandered quite a bit.
This thread is about the "Covenant of Redemption", which I tend not to place in the realm of definite covenants...
But if someone were to press me on it, I would say that yes, there is an agreement between the Son and the Father concerning His bride, the elect.
The Father determined that He would send the Son before the world began, and Jesus Christ was manifest in these last times for them ( 1 Peter 1:20 );
The Son then agreed to do the will of the Father ( John 6:38 ) by going to the cross and dying for them ( Matthew 1:21, John 10:11, Isaiah 53:8 ).
Your closer to wesley than you realise. Arminans are closer related to Calvernist s than they both realise .Strange...
I don't see anywhere that this summary is anything less than biblical:
Perseverance of the Saints
"All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end."
- Source: Calvinism and Arminianism comparison
I'm not sure what you see when reading this, but I see several details that have absolutely nothing to do with our works, not even remotely:
1) Chosen by God.
2) Redeemed by Christ.
3) Given faith by the Spirit.
4) Kept in their faith by the power of Almighty God.
5) Because of these, they persevere to the end in their faith.
Why?
Because it's all of God and none of man.
But I do know of many who tend to confuse the term "persevere" with something similar in "Wesleyan" theology, in that someone must persevere in their walk and in their faith, or risk losing their salvation.
As I see it, this "Perseverance" could not be any farther from that.
That said, it seems I've wandered quite a bit.
This thread is about the "Covenant of Redemption", which I tend not to place in the realm of definite covenants...
But if someone were to press me on it, I would say that yes, there is an agreement between the Son and the Father concerning His bride, the elect.
The Father determined that He would send the Son before the world began, and Jesus Christ was manifest in these last times for them ( 1 Peter 1:20 );
The Son then agreed to do the will of the Father ( John 6:38 ) by going to the cross and dying for them ( Matthew 1:21, John 10:11, Isaiah 53:8 ).
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
I'm listening to the calvernists on here . I'm happy to be educated .
Apparently I need you to elucidate proper theology to me. When will the lesson begin?
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Is 'don't persevere to the end' the Gospel?
Matthew 24:13. "But he who endures to the end shall be saved." See also Matthew 13:20-21.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Of course not . So now your saying that we have to endure to the end to be saved today ? is that the Gospel you hold to ?
When do you think our Lord changed His mind about it?
Of course we (i.e. Christians) have to persevere / endure in the faith! But the Good Shepherd has laid down His life for the sheep. Now the sheep of the Lord Jesus' flock are a special breed. They are distinguished from others by their ears and their feet. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me,' So if someone is not following the Lord Jesus, they reason may be that they are not His sheep for whom He laid down His life. It is possible to become a lost sheep for a period, in which case the Good Shepherd will go forth, find him and bring him home (Luke 15:4-5), but if that doesn't happen, then one must conclude that the sheep is not of Christ's flock.
The sheep were given to Christ by the Father (John 10:29), and He will not lose any of them, but raise them up at the Last Day (John 6:39), so if someone departs from Christ and does not return, it is because he is not one of Christ's sheep (1 John 2:19).
Note well this verse: "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep' (John 10:26). He does not say, "You are not of My sheep because you do not believe." Think about it.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Are you Jewish ? were you there when Jesus spoke face to face? My how you have aged well .
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
The sheep were alive when Jesus spoke of these Jewish ones . Are you a lost sheep of the House of Israel ? do you have a time machine? not everything Jesus spoke is about you .
These kinds of light frivolous responses indicate a person who is not really looking for an answer. If you want to be taken seriously you need to stop trying to post for eyeservice and engage what has been posted.
Galatians 3:7, 28; Ephesians 2:11-22; Philippians 3:3.
37818
Well-Known Member
The word of God cited, Psalms 19:4, refers to God's natural revelation.
you have patiently presented saving and edifying posts and scriptures here
Archangel has went through his posts and showed the defective thoughts but he does not take time to respond.
I can give him credit for his long post and list of his thoughts recently posted.
if time permits I will go through them one at a time.
37818
Well-Known Member
It goes back to what of God's word one will willingly hear and not resist. Romans 10:17-18, Acts of the Apostles 7:51, Hebrews 10:29.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
I believe this is exactly what you are doing . There is no question or answer in your responses . This is supposed to be a debate / discussion forum. Please engage rather than just statements .
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Great so why the problem.?
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