Featured TO BE OR NOT TO BE

TO BE OR NOT TO BE.​

Reading some post on this site reminded me of my previous discussions on other "Christian Sites," from which I was kicked off and ban for good.

And this is why I posted here my thoughts, on "Other Christian Denomination," so very overzealous Baptists would not kicked me out and from this site. Consider me as a stranger and not Christian.

The troubles started when I challenged two major gospels of the Baptists and other Christian denominations. The gospel of Prosperity and gospel of Salvation.

The gospel of Prosperity is evidently false and does not need any introduction or explanation, its doctrine based on greed and lies, more money you give to the church the more you will be blessed that is their slogan and dogma. It is very similar to Catholic church in its past, when they forgave sins for money, the more money you pay, the more sins will be forgiven to you.

But gospels of Salvation is a little bit different. It is not based on money but rather on fear of death and blind devotion to those who promise easy salvation, but not on Biblical terms.

The point I tried to make is that people have to differentiate between general terminology of the Bible and literal terminology, between metaphors and figure of speech and direct reality of the statement.

In every Baptist church I even been, and I had been in many churches and lost account of them, I saw the same thing, church reassuring public that if you believe in Christ, and know that you are save, then you saved. If you believe that Christ is GOD but are not sure if you saved or not, then you are not saved. And of course for this occasion the church already prepared certain order of steps how to save this poor soul right in the church.

The ritual consists of putting a person on the knees before the altar or the pastor, and then pastor and elders will pray for a person, and perhaps will lay also they hands on his/her head, and after this short ceremony they ask him/her if he or she now believe in his/her own salvation, and the answer most of the time is positive, if not, that person will require more "ironing" until he or she admits and declares that he/she is now saved.

The major word in this ritual is "believing." Believing in what exactly, believing that Christ is GOD?

James 2.19
19.You believe that GOD is One, you do well. Even the demons believe and shudder. (and they not only believe, they know!)

So, what is "believing"? I never received any logical explanation on this question, and those who argued with me never answered it, but they kept bombarding me with general cliché and typical Christian slogans, but did not answer the question.

The ritual of salvation that church perform is completely not Biblical, false, and extremely dangerous for those to whom it given as a false hope. This is dead end of salvation and not the beginning of it.

I also heard very often in the church another false slogan, "Once you saved you always saved." This can be also challenged with scriptures of the Bible contradicting such statement.

Immediately after declaring my concerns about false hope of salvation that church give to the people, I was immediately bombarded by verses and passages of the Bible mentioning places of the scripture there Christ and His disciples taught and teach about salvation of the soul. All these verses and passages were of course of general nature, calling people to Christ for salvation, which are all true. It all can be summarize in one short statement, "Come to Me and be saved."

But they completely ignored those verses and passages of the Bible were precisely indicated how actually people can obtain salvation, and what they have to do to posses it. I presented them very hard places of the Bible, there salvation of soul must be achieved, accomplish, reach to, which is not easy.

Matthew 19.23-26.29
23.Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I tell you, it will be hard for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
24.Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for someone who is rich to enter the Kingdom of GOD.”
25.When the disciples heard this they were greatly astounded and said, “Then who can be saved?”
26.But Jesus looked at them and said, “For mortals it is impossible, *but for GOD all things are possible.

29.And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for My name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold, and will inherit Eternal Life." (Matthew 6.33, 19.29) (Mark 10.28-30) (Luke 18.28-30).

Luke 9.24
24."For those who want to save their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for My sake will save it." (Matthew 10.39, 16.25) (Mark 8.35) (Luke 9.24, 17.33) (John 12.25)

Luke 21.19
19.By your endurance you will gain your souls. (Matthew 10.22, 24.13) (Mark 13.13) (Luke 21.17-19) (John 15.21)

1Peter 2.2
2.Like newborn infants long for the pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow into salvation,

1Peter 4.18
18.And: ‘If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinners?’ (Proverbs 11.31)

Matthew 7.14
14.The gate is narrow and the road is hard that leads to Life, and there are few who find it.

There is much more passages like these in the Bible but I do not want make my post too big. But my point is that there is another side of salvation, the side of straggle, effort, force, and even suffering. The side that no one really want to talk about in the church, nor to fulfill, because if salvation will so hard to achieve, there will be no parishioners in the church and with it no $. People do not like difficult things, people like short cut and easy way to achieve their goal. Personally I do not thing that salvation, according to those few verses above, will be so easy to obtain.

We have to remember but beside promises made to us by GOD, we also have and our obligations before Him, but unfortunately, people remember only good promises issued to them and not their own obligations, conditions, and requirements.

 

Good post Jon C.
Let examine certain parameters.

You wrote, "The word "saved" is too often misused. What wre we saved from?
We are saved from the wrath that is to come (1 Thessalonians 1:19). Either we are saved from this wrath or we are not."

I can expand your thought, and specify that wrath of GOD come in term of punishment or rejection. Punishment comes in many different physical forms: wars, famine, diseases, physical death, and so on.

But rejection in the Bible generally means rejection of eternal life. When GOD rejects someone, this person cannot enter the Kingdom of GOD to have eternal life in it. GOD would not allow such person to be in His Kingdom.

This was depicted in the situation there Christ put sheep and goats on two different sides, and one group He invaded into His Kingdom and eternal life, but another group He send straight to Hell. That is also the wrath of GOD, this is not slap on the wrist.

So why for us is so important to inherit eternal life with our GOD? Of course, everyone wants live forever, but this is not the point. The point is that we had been created as immortal human beings, but lost our immortality due to sin of Adam and Eve. So we now wanting our immortality back, and only way to get it is to avoid the wrath of GOD, means to live according to His Statutes and Ordinances and obey Him faithfully.

Answering you question, "What wre we saved from?" Basically we are saved from spiritual death, from second death that dissolves the soul out from existence.

You wrote, "Once we are saved we are, by necessity, ALWAYS saved. It cannot be any other way because salvation has this wrath to come in view."

Salvation does not save from GOD'S wrath, otherwise everybody will be saved no matter who they are and what they do. We saved according to our deeds and behavior, precisely speaking by obeying the Lord's Law and Commandments. Salvation is only result of our behavior.

1Peter 4.17-18

17.The time has come for judgment to begin with the household of GOD, if it begins with us, what will be the end for those who do not obey the Gospel of GOD?

Hebrews 5.9

9.and having been *made perfect He (Jesus Christ) became the Source of Eternal Salvation for all who obey Him,

All statements of GOD are CONDITIONAL and pointed to OBEDIENCE OF HIS LAWS, without such CONDITION OF OBEDIENCE no one receive salvation.

Beside OBEDIENCE other qualities are also required for salvation, such as love, faith, hope, and even fear of GOD.

There is specific places in the Bible indicating that salvation also can be lost.

Luke 8.12

12."The once on the path (of GOD) are those who have heard (the word of GOD, and considered themselves saved), then Devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe ad be saved."

Hebrews 10.38-39
38."but My righteous one will live by faith. My Soul takes no pleasure in anyone who shrinks back." (Habakkuk 2.4)
By Faith in the Laws of GOD one shall live. (Ezekiel 18.9) (Habakkuk 2.4) (Galatians 3.11) (Romans 1.17) (Hebrews 10.38)
39.But we are not among those who shrink back and are lost, but among those who have faith and so are saved.

Hebrews 6.4-6
4.In the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5.and have tasted the good Word of GOD and the powers of the age to come,
6.and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of GOD, and put Him to open shame.

These statements cannot be ignored and the slogan " Once we are saved we are saved " cannot be true because we ourselves declaring to be saved, but we forgot Who is the Master of salvation, and Who give it and Who takes it from human beings. We saved only then, when we finish our lifecycle, considered worthy of the Kingdom of GOD, and taken to Heaven, but as long as we are still on Earth we can easily change our status of salvation, all depends on our behavior and our attitude toward GOD, and of course how we conducting our life.

 

Righteousness wrote " But there exists the extremely erroneous idea that one must be good enough to be saved, which is the antithesis of the Gospel:"

Luke 20.35
35.but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage,

Colossians 1.10
10.so that you may walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of GOD,

1Thessalonians 2.12
12.so that you may walk in a manner worthy of the GOD, Who calls you into His Own Kingdom and glory.

2Thessalonians 1.5
5.This is evidence of the righteous judgment of GOD as is intended to make you worthy of the Kingdom of GOD for which you are also suffering.

3John 1.5-6
5.Beloved, are you acting faithfully in whatever you accomplish for the brethren, and especially when they are strangers,
6.and they bear witness to your love before the church, and you will do well to send them on their way in a manner worthy of GOD.

Revelation 3.4
4."But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled (not make dirty) their garments, and they will walk with Me in white, they are worthy."

NOT WORTHY OF GOD AND HIS KINGDOM.

Matthew 10.37-38
37."He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me, and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
38.And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me." (Matthew 10.37-38, 16.24) (Mark 8.34) (Luke 9.23, 14.26-27.33)

Matthew 22.7-8
The parable about master of the wedding feast.
7."The king was enraged, and sent his armies, and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire.
8.Then he said to his slaves, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy."

Acts 13.45-46
45.But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy, and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul and were blaspheming.
46.And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the Word of GOD should be spoken to you first, since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of Eternal Life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.

WORTHY TO BE APPOINTED TO DO THE WORK OF GOD

Ephesians 4.1
1.I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, entreat you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling, with which you have been called,

Philippians 1.27
27.Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the Gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you, or remain absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the Gospel,

2Thessalonians 1.11
11.To this end also we pray for you always, that our GOD may count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power,

WORTHY TO RECEIVE FAVOR FROM GOD.

Luke 7.2-5
2.And a certain centurion's slave who was highly regarded by him was sick, and about to die.
3.And when he heard about Jesus, he sent some Jewish elders, asking Him to come and save the life of his slave.
4.And when they had come to Jesus, they earnestly entreated Him saying, "He is worthy for You to grant this to him,
5.he loves our nation, and it was he who built us our synagogue." (Matthew 8.5-13)

WORTHY TO RECEIVE GOSPEL.

Matthew 10.11-13
11."And into whatever city or village you enter, inquire who is worthy in it and abide there, until you go away.
12.And as you enter the house give it your greeting.
13.And if the house is worthy, let your greeting of peace come upon it, but if it is not worthy, let your greeting of peace return to you."

WORTHY TO SUFFER FOR THE NAME OF CHRIST.

Acts 5.41
41.So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name.

WORTHY TO BE A SAINT.

Romans 16.1-2
1.I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea,
2.that you receive her in the Lord in a matter worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you, she herself has also been a helper of many, and of myself as well.

 

Thank you Dave, GOD bless you too.

 

We are looking on the same issue from different points of view, and each and every point of view has it own right.

 

Hi Righteousness.

You wrote, " You are entirely missing the key point--the source of worthiness for salvation. It is not we but God who makes us worthy, and He does so by clothing us who believe with the Lord Jesus Christ. Here is a key pair of verses (1 Cor 1:30-31), but the context (1 Cor 1:18ff) is so rich, so powerful that I'm including it below."

Why GOD made only us worthy, why He do not made everybody worthy? Is it fair for those who left behind and have to faced consequences of their unworthiness?

It is very easy put everything on GOD'S shoulders, let GOD do everything for us and we will have a joy ride. This is actually the basic theory of Christianity, there GOD must do everything for us, but on our part we give Him only lip service in the church.

GOD already teach us, suffered for us, endured humiliation and violence for us, finally sacrificed Himself for us, how much more we possibly need from Him. Jesus did ultimate sacrifice to save us. He gave us a lifeboat to save us from the sunken ship. But we are saying to Him, put us in lifeboat and take us to the shore, and non of us even wants to row the boat, Christ should do it all of it for us.

Verses, passages, and Statements of GOD must be read very carefully and studied in order to get to the bottom of their meanings. And again, a reader must differentiate between general terms and literal meaning, otherwise understanding will be lost and wrong assumption will surface.

We are worthy of Christ because we put ourselves in Christ, and became worthy of Christ. If we will remain without Christ and not accepting Him, we are not worthy of Him.

The same thing with salvation. We accepted Christ, following His Statutes and His Commandments, and as reward He granted us salvation from death and eternal life in His kingdom.

If we will seat and wait until worthiness and salvation come to us some how, we are getting nowhere.

 

Hi Dave.

I do not accept Christian denomination, they are foreign to me, I accept only word of GOD, the Bible, and nothing else.

I started study Bible by myself in beginning of 80's, and divided Bible on the themes and subjects. Because in the 80's personal computers were rarity, I did my study with pen and paper. So in order for me to find a specific information in Bible, for example about character of GOD, His miracles, angels, spirits, king wars, numbers, and many other subjects, I collected for each subject all the places of the Bible and wrote them on the paper.

All these papers on each subject I put in separate folders. In total at that time I manage to collect close to a hundred different subject and themes from the Bible. That gave me excellent inside and understanding of the scriptures. For example, if you read a couple verses about love of GOD, you understanding and opinion will be based only on these two verses, and of course your understanding concerning this subject will be incomplete.

But if you collect all information from OT and NT, from the whole Bible and put this subject in a single folder and read it, you will have completely different point of view and understanding of this subject. In other words, you understanding and knowledge will be complete.

In the beginning of 90's I started collect old computers that had been trashed. I fixed them and use them to digitize all my work. And I still doing it even today, collecting new information, new themes, and new subject.

Basically I created a computer program which contains the themes and subjects of the Bibles I collected for all these long years, and if I need to access a certain subject, I click on it, and all the information collected from entire Bible concerning the subject immediately appears on the monitor, no time wasted. This is why it is so easy for me to find the right verses and passage on the subject of discussion, I access them in seconds.

As I mentioned before in my previous posts, I was involved in other sites, such as Christianforum.com, CARM, and Bible something...do not remember the name, and in some other sites. But I was kicked out from all of them because Baptists who run the sites could not tolerate when someone criticized their false doctrines and think otherwise that they are.

I do not belong to any particular group, or denomination, or church, or doctrine, or sect, or pope, I only belong to the Bible and the Bible belongs to me, and this is it.

I visited countless churches in my life, and among them were 7 days Adventists, and Church of Christ, and Methodists, and Baptists, and Lutheran, and many other, and none of them mean anything to me. But I gained some knowledge of how corrupt Christian system works and operates.

 

I think my avatar have right description. Seeking Christ is the life time process. We can achieve certain perfection but we never will be perfect.

Seeking Christ means improving yourself constantly, trying to achieve highest degree of spirituality in GOD.

GOD is the Spirit and have to be worship in spirit.

Concerning faith, faith without works is dead and works without faith is dead, you must have both of them to achieve salvation. Just like head without body will not function and body without head is dead, you must have both to be alive and function.

James 2.14.17-18.20-22.24.26
14.What use is it my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
17.Even so faith, if it has no works is dead by itself.
18.But someone may well say, "You have faith, and I have works, show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
20.But are you willing to recognize you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21.Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22.You see, that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfect,
24.You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
26.Just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Revelation 22.12
12."See, I am coming soon, My reward is with Me to repay according to everyone’s work."

Gift of eternal life in Romans 6.23 indeed free gift. But it does not means that this precious gift given to everyone. You do not give gifts to those who hate you and despise you, to those who mock you and ignoring you, to those who hurt you or neglect you, do you?
Read that have been said about rewards.

Matthew 5.12
12."Rejoice and be glad, your reward in Heaven is great, so they persecuted prophets who were before you."

Matthew 6.
4.so that your alms may be done in secret, and your Father Who sees in secret will reward you.
6.But whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father Who is in secret, and your Father Who sees in secret will reward you.
18.so that your fasting may be seen not by others but by your Father Who is in secret, and your Father Who is in secret will reward you."

Matthew 10.
41.Whoever welcomes a prophet in the name of a prophet, will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever welcomes a righteous person in the name of a righteous person, will receive the reward of the righteous,
42.and whoever gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones in the name of a disciple, truly I tell you, none of these will lose their reward.” (Matthew 10.42) (Mark 9.41)

Mark 9.41
41."Truly I tell you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you bear the name of Christ, will by no means lose the reward.” (Matthew 10.42) (Mark 9.41)

Luke 6.23.35
23."Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, surely your reward is great in Heaven, that is what their ancestors did to the prophets.
35.But love your enemies, do good (2Kings 6.18-23) (2Chronicles 28.9-15) (Proverbs 25.21-22) (Matthew 5.43-45) (Luke 6.27-28.35-36) (Romans 12.20-21), and lend expecting nothing in return (Deuteronomy 15.1-3.9, 23.19-20). Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, He is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked." (Matthew 5.45) (Luke 6.35) (Proverbs of Solomon 29.13)

Luke 14.
13.But when you give a reception, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,
14.and you will be blessed, since they do not have the means to repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous." (Luke 6.38, 14.13-14)

Revelation 22.12
12."See, I am coming soon, My reward is with Me to repay according to everyone’s work."

 

Yes Dave, you are certainly Baptist, and I have nothing against it, Baptist have some positive doctrines and they understand Bible better than other denominations, no question about it.

But I firmly believe that it is up to GOD to decided who is His and who is not.

Concerning His grace, grace means mercy, and because of it He is merciful GOD, but it does not mean that He leaves guilty unpunished. GOD is very hard on criminals, unfaithful, and hypocrites, they do not deserve His grace (mercy).

Yes, He saves people by His merciful grace, but far not all.

Just like GOD saved remnant of Israel, so the remnant of Christians will be saved. Remnant means very few. So, many people who so sure that they already saved by the grace of GOD, do not know the opinion of GOD concerning them, and many will be greatly disappointed on the Day of Judgment.