TO BE OR NOT TO BE

[Alex2165]

TO BE OR NOT TO BE.​

Reading some post on this site reminded me of my previous discussions on other "Christian Sites," from which I was kicked off and ban for good.

And this is why I posted here my thoughts, on "Other Christian Denomination," so very overzealous Baptists would not kicked me out and from this site. Consider me as a stranger and not Christian.

The troubles started when I challenged two major gospels of the Baptists and other Christian denominations. The gospel of Prosperity and gospel of Salvation.

The gospel of Prosperity is evidently false and does not need any introduction or explanation, its doctrine based on greed and lies, more money you give to the church the more you will be blessed that is their slogan and dogma. It is very similar to Catholic church in its past, when they forgave sins for money, the more money you pay, the more sins will be forgiven to you.

But gospels of Salvation is a little bit different. It is not based on money but rather on fear of death and blind devotion to those who promise easy salvation, but not on Biblical terms.

The point I tried to make is that people have to differentiate between general terminology of the Bible and literal terminology, between metaphors and figure of speech and direct reality of the statement.

In every Baptist church I even been, and I had been in many churches and lost account of them, I saw the same thing, church reassuring public that if you believe in Christ, and know that you are save, then you saved. If you believe that Christ is GOD but are not sure if you saved or not, then you are not saved. And of course for this occasion the church already prepared certain order of steps how to save this poor soul right in the church.

The ritual consists of putting a person on the knees before the altar or the pastor, and then pastor and elders will pray for a person, and perhaps will lay also they hands on his/her head, and after this short ceremony they ask him/her if he or she now believe in his/her own salvation, and the answer most of the time is positive, if not, that person will require more "ironing" until he or she admits and declares that he/she is now saved.

The major word in this ritual is "believing." Believing in what exactly, believing that Christ is GOD?

James 2.19
19.You believe that GOD is One, you do well. Even the demons believe and shudder. (and they not only believe, they know!)

So, what is "believing"? I never received any logical explanation on this question, and those who argued with me never answered it, but they kept bombarding me with general cliché and typical Christian slogans, but did not answer the question.

The ritual of salvation that church perform is completely not Biblical, false, and extremely dangerous for those to whom it given as a false hope. This is dead end of salvation and not the beginning of it.

I also heard very often in the church another false slogan, "Once you saved you always saved." This can be also challenged with scriptures of the Bible contradicting such statement.

Immediately after declaring my concerns about false hope of salvation that church give to the people, I was immediately bombarded by verses and passages of the Bible mentioning places of the scripture there Christ and His disciples taught and teach about salvation of the soul. All these verses and passages were of course of general nature, calling people to Christ for salvation, which are all true. It all can be summarize in one short statement, "Come to Me and be saved."

But they completely ignored those verses and passages of the Bible were precisely indicated how actually people can obtain salvation, and what they have to do to posses it. I presented them very hard places of the Bible, there salvation of soul must be achieved, accomplish, reach to, which is not easy.

Matthew 19.23-26.29
23.Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I tell you, it will be hard for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
24.Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for someone who is rich to enter the Kingdom of GOD.”
25.When the disciples heard this they were greatly astounded and said, “Then who can be saved?”
26.But Jesus looked at them and said, “For mortals it is impossible, *but for GOD all things are possible.

29.And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for My name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold, and will inherit Eternal Life." (Matthew 6.33, 19.29) (Mark 10.28-30) (Luke 18.28-30).

Luke 9.24
24."For those who want to save their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for My sake will save it." (Matthew 10.39, 16.25) (Mark 8.35) (Luke 9.24, 17.33) (John 12.25)

Luke 21.19
19.By your endurance you will gain your souls. (Matthew 10.22, 24.13) (Mark 13.13) (Luke 21.17-19) (John 15.21)

1Peter 2.2
2.Like newborn infants long for the pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow into salvation,

1Peter 4.18
18.And: ‘If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinners?’ (Proverbs 11.31)

Matthew 7.14
14.The gate is narrow and the road is hard that leads to Life, and there are few who find it.

There is much more passages like these in the Bible but I do not want make my post too big. But my point is that there is another side of salvation, the side of straggle, effort, force, and even suffering. The side that no one really want to talk about in the church, nor to fulfill, because if salvation will so hard to achieve, there will be no parishioners in the church and with it no $. People do not like difficult things, people like short cut and easy way to achieve their goal. Personally I do not thing that salvation, according to those few verses above, will be so easy to obtain.

We have to remember but beside promises made to us by GOD, we also have and our obligations before Him, but unfortunately, people remember only good promises issued to them and not their own obligations, conditions, and requirements.

 

[JonC]

I agree with you concerning excess in doctrine. I do believe that once we are saved we are always saved, but for different reasons than you mention here.

The word "saved" is too often misused. What wre we saved from?

We are saved from the wrath that is to come (1 Thessalonians 1:19). Either we are saved from this wrath or we are not.

Once we are saved we are, by necessity, ALWAYS saved. It cannot be any other way because salvation has this wrath to come in view.

The real question, then, is not salvation but assurance. How can we be assured that we are "among the elect" (the group that will be saved on "that day") ?

That is a moment by moment examination of our walk, of the fruits of our life. If we are walking in the Light we have an assurance that we will be saved. If we are walking in darkness we do not have that assurance. Taking up our cross is a daily activity. But that is where our focus should be, daily anticipating Christ's return.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

I think I like that description, needing “more ironing,” though not at all in that context. There is a definite tension in the process of salvation, as spiritual growth is a product of having been born again. As one grows, there is the tendency to realize more wrinkles than ever imagined.

But there exists the extremely erroneous idea that one must be good enough to be saved, which is the antithesis of the Gospel: God is good enough to save the worst of sinners and does, even those who have persecuted him and his own. Paul put it this way:

“Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: ‘Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst,’” (1 Tim 1:15).

 

[Dave G]

So, what is "believing"? I never received any logical explanation on this question, and those who argued with me never answered it, but they kept bombarding me with general cliché and typical Christian slogans, but did not answer the question.

I think that God's word gives all a person needs to understand what it is to believe:

" But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." ( Romans 10:8-9 )

What is it to believe?
To trust, to cling to, to literally fall on every word of God as if they are the only things that matter.
Read the Book of John starting at chapter 1 and don't stop until you're done, my friend.


May He bless you with the knowledge of Him and His Son.

 

[Alex2165]

I agree with you concerning excess in doctrine. I do believe that once we are saved we are always saved, but for different reasons than you mention here.

The word "saved" is too often misused. What wre we saved from?

We are saved from the wrath that is to come (1 Thessalonians 1:19). Either we are saved from this wrath or we are not.

Once we are saved we are, by necessity, ALWAYS saved. It cannot be any other way because salvation has this wrath to come in view.

The real question, then, is not salvation but assurance. How can we be assured that we are "among the elect" (the group that will be saved on "that day") ?

That is a moment by moment examination of our walk, of the fruits of our life. If we are walking in the Light we have an assurance that we will be saved. If we are walking in darkness we do not have that assurance. Taking up our cross is a daily activity. But that is where our focus should be, daily anticipating Christ's return.

Good post Jon C.
Let examine certain parameters.

You wrote, "The word "saved" is too often misused. What wre we saved from?
We are saved from the wrath that is to come (1 Thessalonians 1:19). Either we are saved from this wrath or we are not."

I can expand your thought, and specify that wrath of GOD come in term of punishment or rejection. Punishment comes in many different physical forms: wars, famine, diseases, physical death, and so on.

But rejection in the Bible generally means rejection of eternal life. When GOD rejects someone, this person cannot enter the Kingdom of GOD to have eternal life in it. GOD would not allow such person to be in His Kingdom.

This was depicted in the situation there Christ put sheep and goats on two different sides, and one group He invaded into His Kingdom and eternal life, but another group He send straight to Hell. That is also the wrath of GOD, this is not slap on the wrist.

So why for us is so important to inherit eternal life with our GOD? Of course, everyone wants live forever, but this is not the point. The point is that we had been created as immortal human beings, but lost our immortality due to sin of Adam and Eve. So we now wanting our immortality back, and only way to get it is to avoid the wrath of GOD, means to live according to His Statutes and Ordinances and obey Him faithfully.

Answering you question, "What wre we saved from?" Basically we are saved from spiritual death, from second death that dissolves the soul out from existence.

You wrote, "Once we are saved we are, by necessity, ALWAYS saved. It cannot be any other way because salvation has this wrath to come in view."

Salvation does not save from GOD'S wrath, otherwise everybody will be saved no matter who they are and what they do. We saved according to our deeds and behavior, precisely speaking by obeying the Lord's Law and Commandments. Salvation is only result of our behavior.

1Peter 4.17-18

17.The time has come for judgment to begin with the household of GOD, if it begins with us, what will be the end for those who do not obey the Gospel of GOD?

Hebrews 5.9

9.and having been *made perfect He (Jesus Christ) became the Source of Eternal Salvation for all who obey Him,

All statements of GOD are CONDITIONAL and pointed to OBEDIENCE OF HIS LAWS, without such CONDITION OF OBEDIENCE no one receive salvation.

Beside OBEDIENCE other qualities are also required for salvation, such as love, faith, hope, and even fear of GOD.

There is specific places in the Bible indicating that salvation also can be lost.

Luke 8.12

12."The once on the path (of GOD) are those who have heard (the word of GOD, and considered themselves saved), then Devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe ad be saved."

Hebrews 10.38-39
38."but My righteous one will live by faith. My Soul takes no pleasure in anyone who shrinks back." (Habakkuk 2.4)
By Faith in the Laws of GOD one shall live. (Ezekiel 18.9) (Habakkuk 2.4) (Galatians 3.11) (Romans 1.17) (Hebrews 10.38)
39.But we are not among those who shrink back and are lost, but among those who have faith and so are saved.

Hebrews 6.4-6
4.In the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5.and have tasted the good Word of GOD and the powers of the age to come,
6.and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of GOD, and put Him to open shame.

These statements cannot be ignored and the slogan " Once we are saved we are saved " cannot be true because we ourselves declaring to be saved, but we forgot Who is the Master of salvation, and Who give it and Who takes it from human beings. We saved only then, when we finish our lifecycle, considered worthy of the Kingdom of GOD, and taken to Heaven, but as long as we are still on Earth we can easily change our status of salvation, all depends on our behavior and our attitude toward GOD, and of course how we conducting our life.

 

[JonC]

Good post Jon C.
Let examine certain parameters.

You wrote, "The word "saved" is too often misused. What wre we saved from?
We are saved from the wrath that is to come (1 Thessalonians 1:19). Either we are saved from this wrath or we are not."

I can expand your thought, and specify that wrath of GOD come in term of punishment or rejection. Punishment comes in many different physical forms: wars, famine, diseases, physical death, and so on.

But rejection in the Bible generally means rejection of eternal life. When GOD rejects someone, this person cannot enter the Kingdom of GOD to have eternal life in it. GOD would not allow such person to be in His Kingdom.

This was depicted in the situation there Christ put sheep and goats on two different sides, and one group He invaded into His Kingdom and eternal life, but another group He send straight to Hell. That is also the wrath of GOD, this is not slap on the wrist.

So why for us is so important to inherit eternal life with our GOD? Of course, everyone wants live forever, but this is not the point. The point is that we had been created as immortal human beings, but lost our immortality due to sin of Adam and Eve. So we now wanting our immortality back, and only way to get it is to avoid the wrath of GOD, means to live according to His Statutes and Ordinances and obey Him faithfully.

Answering you question, "What wre we saved from?" Basically we are saved from spiritual death, from second death that dissolves the soul out from existence.

You wrote, "Once we are saved we are, by necessity, ALWAYS saved. It cannot be any other way because salvation has this wrath to come in view."

Salvation does not save from GOD'S wrath, otherwise everybody will be saved no matter who they are and what they do. We saved according to our deeds and behavior, precisely speaking by obeying the Lord's Law and Commandments. Salvation is only result of our behavior.

1Peter 4.17-18

17.The time has come for judgment to begin with the household of GOD, if it begins with us, what will be the end for those who do not obey the Gospel of GOD?

Hebrews 5.9

9.and having been *made perfect He (Jesus Christ) became the Source of Eternal Salvation for all who obey Him,

All statements of GOD are CONDITIONAL and pointed to OBEDIENCE OF HIS LAWS, without such CONDITION OF OBEDIENCE no one receive salvation.

Beside OBEDIENCE other qualities are also required for salvation, such as love, faith, hope, and even fear of GOD.

There is specific places in the Bible indicating that salvation also can be lost.

Luke 8.12

12."The once on the path (of GOD) are those who have heard (the word of GOD, and considered themselves saved), then Devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe ad be saved."

Hebrews 10.38-39
38."but My righteous one will live by faith. My Soul takes no pleasure in anyone who shrinks back." (Habakkuk 2.4)
By Faith in the Laws of GOD one shall live. (Ezekiel 18.9) (Habakkuk 2.4) (Galatians 3.11) (Romans 1.17) (Hebrews 10.38)
39.But we are not among those who shrink back and are lost, but among those who have faith and so are saved.

Hebrews 6.4-6
4.In the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5.and have tasted the good Word of GOD and the powers of the age to come,
6.and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of GOD, and put Him to open shame.

These statements cannot be ignored and the slogan " Once we are saved we are saved " cannot be true because we ourselves declaring to be saved, but we forgot Who is the Master of salvation, and Who give it and Who takes it from human beings. We saved only then, when we finish our lifecycle, considered worthy of the Kingdom of GOD, and taken to Heaven, but as long as we are still on Earth we can easily change our status of salvation, all depends on our behavior and our attitude toward GOD, and of course how we conducting our life.

Scripture says we were spiritually dead but are saved from "the wrath to come".

I believe most who reject OSAS hold the same ultimate view as those who hold to OSAS.

 

[Alex2165]

I think I like that description, needing “more ironing,” though not at all in that context. There is a definite tension in the process of salvation, as spiritual growth is a product of having been born again. As one grows, there is the tendency to realize more wrinkles than ever imagined.

But there exists the extremely erroneous idea that one must be good enough to be saved, which is the antithesis of the Gospel: God is good enough to save the worst of sinners and does, even those who have persecuted him and his own. Paul put it this way:

“Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: ‘Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst,’” (1 Tim 1:15).

Righteousness wrote " But there exists the extremely erroneous idea that one must be good enough to be saved, which is the antithesis of the Gospel:"

Luke 20.35
35.but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage,

Colossians 1.10
10.so that you may walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of GOD,

1Thessalonians 2.12
12.so that you may walk in a manner worthy of the GOD, Who calls you into His Own Kingdom and glory.

2Thessalonians 1.5
5.This is evidence of the righteous judgment of GOD as is intended to make you worthy of the Kingdom of GOD for which you are also suffering.

3John 1.5-6
5.Beloved, are you acting faithfully in whatever you accomplish for the brethren, and especially when they are strangers,
6.and they bear witness to your love before the church, and you will do well to send them on their way in a manner worthy of GOD.

Revelation 3.4
4."But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled (not make dirty) their garments, and they will walk with Me in white, they are worthy."

NOT WORTHY OF GOD AND HIS KINGDOM.

Matthew 10.37-38
37."He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me, and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
38.And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me." (Matthew 10.37-38, 16.24) (Mark 8.34) (Luke 9.23, 14.26-27.33)

Matthew 22.7-8
The parable about master of the wedding feast.
7."The king was enraged, and sent his armies, and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire.
8.Then he said to his slaves, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy."

Acts 13.45-46
45.But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy, and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul and were blaspheming.
46.And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the Word of GOD should be spoken to you first, since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of Eternal Life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.

WORTHY TO BE APPOINTED TO DO THE WORK OF GOD

Ephesians 4.1
1.I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, entreat you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling, with which you have been called,

Philippians 1.27
27.Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the Gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you, or remain absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the Gospel,

2Thessalonians 1.11
11.To this end also we pray for you always, that our GOD may count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power,

WORTHY TO RECEIVE FAVOR FROM GOD.

Luke 7.2-5
2.And a certain centurion's slave who was highly regarded by him was sick, and about to die.
3.And when he heard about Jesus, he sent some Jewish elders, asking Him to come and save the life of his slave.
4.And when they had come to Jesus, they earnestly entreated Him saying, "He is worthy for You to grant this to him,
5.he loves our nation, and it was he who built us our synagogue." (Matthew 8.5-13)

WORTHY TO RECEIVE GOSPEL.

Matthew 10.11-13
11."And into whatever city or village you enter, inquire who is worthy in it and abide there, until you go away.
12.And as you enter the house give it your greeting.
13.And if the house is worthy, let your greeting of peace come upon it, but if it is not worthy, let your greeting of peace return to you."

WORTHY TO SUFFER FOR THE NAME OF CHRIST.

Acts 5.41
41.So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name.

WORTHY TO BE A SAINT.

Romans 16.1-2
1.I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea,
2.that you receive her in the Lord in a matter worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you, she herself has also been a helper of many, and of myself as well.

 

[Alex2165]

I think that God's word gives all a person needs to understand what it is to believe:

" But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." ( Romans 10:8-9 )

What is it to believe?
To trust, to cling to, to literally fall on every word of God as if they are the only things that matter.
Read the Book of John starting at chapter 1 and don't stop until you're done, my friend.


May He bless you with the knowledge of Him and His Son.

Thank you Dave, GOD bless you too.

 

[Alex2165]

Scripture says we were spiritually dead but are saved from "the wrath to come".

I believe most who reject OSAS hold the same ultimate view as those who hold to OSAS.

We are looking on the same issue from different points of view, and each and every point of view has it own right.

 

[Dave G]

But they completely ignored those verses and passages of the Bible were precisely indicated how actually people can obtain salvation, and what they have to do to posses it. I presented them very hard places of the Bible, there salvation of soul must be achieved, accomplish, reach to, which is not easy.

No, it is not easy.
In fact, apart from God's grace and mercy it is impossible.

But with God all things are possible.

This was depicted in the situation there Christ put sheep and goats on two different sides, and one group He invaded into His Kingdom and eternal life, but another group He send straight to Hell. That is also the wrath of GOD, this is not slap on the wrist.

Amen.
It is serious, and not a slap on the wrist.

Answering you question, "What wre we saved from?" Basically we are saved from spiritual death, from second death that dissolves the soul out from existence.

@Alex2165 :
If you don't mind me saying, you seem very knowledgeable about the Scriptures for someone that is "seeking Christ".
Most that I know who have been such, have absolutely no knowledge of God's word except for a few passages like John 3:16.

I'm curious...

Would you care to share some of your background?
I'm guessing that you were, or are, involved in either a group like the Seventh Day Adventists or perhaps Churches of Christ;
Although I'm leaning towards the former.

Am I correct?

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Righteousness wrote " But there exists the extremely erroneous idea that one must be good enough to be saved, which is the antithesis of the Gospel:"

Luke 20.35
35.but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage,....

You are entirely missing the key point--the source of worthiness for salvation. It is not we but God who makes us worthy, and He does so by clothing us who believe with the Lord Jesus Christ. Here is a key pair of verses (1 Cor 1:30-31), but the context (1 Cor 1:18ff) is so rich, so powerful that I'm including it below.

"It is because of [God] that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: 'Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.'"

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”​

 

[Alex2165]

Hi Righteousness.

You wrote, " You are entirely missing the key point--the source of worthiness for salvation. It is not we but God who makes us worthy, and He does so by clothing us who believe with the Lord Jesus Christ. Here is a key pair of verses (1 Cor 1:30-31), but the context (1 Cor 1:18ff) is so rich, so powerful that I'm including it below."

Why GOD made only us worthy, why He do not made everybody worthy? Is it fair for those who left behind and have to faced consequences of their unworthiness?

It is very easy put everything on GOD'S shoulders, let GOD do everything for us and we will have a joy ride. This is actually the basic theory of Christianity, there GOD must do everything for us, but on our part we give Him only lip service in the church.

GOD already teach us, suffered for us, endured humiliation and violence for us, finally sacrificed Himself for us, how much more we possibly need from Him. Jesus did ultimate sacrifice to save us. He gave us a lifeboat to save us from the sunken ship. But we are saying to Him, put us in lifeboat and take us to the shore, and non of us even wants to row the boat, Christ should do it all of it for us.

Verses, passages, and Statements of GOD must be read very carefully and studied in order to get to the bottom of their meanings. And again, a reader must differentiate between general terms and literal meaning, otherwise understanding will be lost and wrong assumption will surface.

We are worthy of Christ because we put ourselves in Christ, and became worthy of Christ. If we will remain without Christ and not accepting Him, we are not worthy of Him.

The same thing with salvation. We accepted Christ, following His Statutes and His Commandments, and as reward He granted us salvation from death and eternal life in His kingdom.

If we will seat and wait until worthiness and salvation come to us some how, we are getting nowhere.

 

[Alex2165]

No, it is not easy.
In fact, apart from God's grace and mercy it is impossible.

But with God all things are possible.

Amen.
It is serious, and not a slap on the wrist.

@Alex2165 :
If you don't mind me saying, you seem very knowledgeable about the Scriptures for someone that is "seeking Christ".
Most that I know who have been such, have absolutely no knowledge of God's word except for a few passages like John 3:16.

I'm curious...

Would you care to share some of your background?
I'm guessing that you were, or are, involved in either a group like the Seventh Day Adventists or perhaps Churches of Christ;
Although I'm leaning towards the former.

Am I correct?

Hi Dave.

I do not accept Christian denomination, they are foreign to me, I accept only word of GOD, the Bible, and nothing else.

I started study Bible by myself in beginning of 80's, and divided Bible on the themes and subjects. Because in the 80's personal computers were rarity, I did my study with pen and paper. So in order for me to find a specific information in Bible, for example about character of GOD, His miracles, angels, spirits, king wars, numbers, and many other subjects, I collected for each subject all the places of the Bible and wrote them on the paper.

All these papers on each subject I put in separate folders. In total at that time I manage to collect close to a hundred different subject and themes from the Bible. That gave me excellent inside and understanding of the scriptures. For example, if you read a couple verses about love of GOD, you understanding and opinion will be based only on these two verses, and of course your understanding concerning this subject will be incomplete.

But if you collect all information from OT and NT, from the whole Bible and put this subject in a single folder and read it, you will have completely different point of view and understanding of this subject. In other words, you understanding and knowledge will be complete.

In the beginning of 90's I started collect old computers that had been trashed. I fixed them and use them to digitize all my work. And I still doing it even today, collecting new information, new themes, and new subject.

Basically I created a computer program which contains the themes and subjects of the Bibles I collected for all these long years, and if I need to access a certain subject, I click on it, and all the information collected from entire Bible concerning the subject immediately appears on the monitor, no time wasted. This is why it is so easy for me to find the right verses and passage on the subject of discussion, I access them in seconds.

As I mentioned before in my previous posts, I was involved in other sites, such as Christianforum.com, CARM, and Bible something...do not remember the name, and in some other sites. But I was kicked out from all of them because Baptists who run the sites could not tolerate when someone criticized their false doctrines and think otherwise that they are.

I do not belong to any particular group, or denomination, or church, or doctrine, or sect, or pope, I only belong to the Bible and the Bible belongs to me, and this is it.

I visited countless churches in my life, and among them were 7 days Adventists, and Church of Christ, and Methodists, and Baptists, and Lutheran, and many other, and none of them mean anything to me. But I gained some knowledge of how corrupt Christian system works and operates.

 

[Dave G]

Why GOD made only us worthy, why He do not made everybody worthy?

Romans 9:6-24.

Incidentally, by using the "us", it seems to me that you're including yourself as a Christian, and are not really "seeking Christ" as it says under your avatar.
Would you please clarify whether or not you have believed on Christ for the forgiveness of your sins?

If so, perhaps you might wish to consider changing your "faith" to "non-Baptist Christian.

We are worthy of Christ because we put ourselves in Christ, and became worthy of Christ.

Are you entirely sure that that is what the Scripture is saying?
" But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:" ( 1 Corinthians 1:30 ).

" For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:10 ).

The same thing with salvation. We accepted Christ, following His Statutes and His Commandments, and as reward He granted us salvation from death and eternal life in His kingdom.

Respectfully, I disagree.
I see and hear a great many people, both on this site and the world over in media and radio / television, who think that that is what the Bible teaches.
Rather, I see that salvation is by grace through faith ( Ephesians 2:8-9 )...

It is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ), not a reward.
It is most definitely not by works of righteousness which we have done ( Titus 3:5-7 ).

 

[Dave G]

I do not accept Christian denomination, they are foreign to me, I accept only word of GOD, the Bible, and nothing else.

I commend you for that.
I also agree with you on this very thing;

However, you will see the term "Baptist" under my avatar because I see the Bible teaching the things that long ago gave "Baptists" their unique name at the hands of those who disagreed with them...
"Believer's Baptism", ( in addition to re-baptizing those who had not been Scripturally baptized by immersion ) as well as the autonomy of the local church and it being the pillar and ground of the truth, among many other distinctives.

So, I identify as a "Baptist" because that is what a group like the Roman Catholic Church would probably call someone like me.

I do not belong to any particular group, or denomination, or church, or doctrine, or sect, or pope, I only belong to the Bible and the Bible belongs to me, and this is it.

Myself, I belong to Christ, and He belongs to me.
He is my exceeding and great reward.

God's word, the Bible, tells me much about how and why He saved me by His grace.
If not for that grace, I would have to answer for my every sin in the punishment of eternal torment.

 

[Alex2165]

Romans 9:6-24.

Incidentally, by using the "us", it seems to me that you're including yourself as a Christian, and are not really "seeking Christ" as it says under your avatar.
Would you please clarify whether or not you have believed on Christ for the forgiveness of your sins?

If so, perhaps you might wish to consider changing your "faith" to "non-Baptist Christian.

Are you entirely sure that that is what the Scripture is saying?
" But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:" ( 1 Corinthians 1:30 ).

" For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:10 ).

Respectfully, I disagree.
I see and hear a great many people, both on this site and the world over in media and radio / television, who think that that is what the Bible teaches.
Rather, I see that salvation is by grace through faith ( Ephesians 2:8-9 )...

It is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ), not a reward.
It is most definitely not by works of righteousness which we have done ( Titus 3:5-7 ).

I think my avatar have right description. Seeking Christ is the life time process. We can achieve certain perfection but we never will be perfect.

Seeking Christ means improving yourself constantly, trying to achieve highest degree of spirituality in GOD.

GOD is the Spirit and have to be worship in spirit.

Concerning faith, faith without works is dead and works without faith is dead, you must have both of them to achieve salvation. Just like head without body will not function and body without head is dead, you must have both to be alive and function.

James 2.14.17-18.20-22.24.26
14.What use is it my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
17.Even so faith, if it has no works is dead by itself.
18.But someone may well say, "You have faith, and I have works, show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
20.But are you willing to recognize you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21.Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22.You see, that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfect,
24.You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
26.Just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Revelation 22.12
12."See, I am coming soon, My reward is with Me to repay according to everyone’s work."

Gift of eternal life in Romans 6.23 indeed free gift. But it does not means that this precious gift given to everyone. You do not give gifts to those who hate you and despise you, to those who mock you and ignoring you, to those who hurt you or neglect you, do you?
Read that have been said about rewards.

Matthew 5.12
12."Rejoice and be glad, your reward in Heaven is great, so they persecuted prophets who were before you."

Matthew 6.
4.so that your alms may be done in secret, and your Father Who sees in secret will reward you.
6.But whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father Who is in secret, and your Father Who sees in secret will reward you.
18.so that your fasting may be seen not by others but by your Father Who is in secret, and your Father Who is in secret will reward you."

Matthew 10.
41.Whoever welcomes a prophet in the name of a prophet, will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever welcomes a righteous person in the name of a righteous person, will receive the reward of the righteous,
42.and whoever gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones in the name of a disciple, truly I tell you, none of these will lose their reward.” (Matthew 10.42) (Mark 9.41)

Mark 9.41
41."Truly I tell you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you bear the name of Christ, will by no means lose the reward.” (Matthew 10.42) (Mark 9.41)

Luke 6.23.35
23."Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, surely your reward is great in Heaven, that is what their ancestors did to the prophets.
35.But love your enemies, do good (2Kings 6.18-23) (2Chronicles 28.9-15) (Proverbs 25.21-22) (Matthew 5.43-45) (Luke 6.27-28.35-36) (Romans 12.20-21), and lend expecting nothing in return (Deuteronomy 15.1-3.9, 23.19-20). Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, He is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked." (Matthew 5.45) (Luke 6.35) (Proverbs of Solomon 29.13)

Luke 14.
13.But when you give a reception, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,
14.and you will be blessed, since they do not have the means to repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous." (Luke 6.38, 14.13-14)

Revelation 22.12
12."See, I am coming soon, My reward is with Me to repay according to everyone’s work."

 

[Alex2165]

I commend you for that.
I also agree with you on this very thing;

However, you will see the term "Baptist" under my avatar because I see the Bible teaching the things that long ago gave "Baptists" their unique name at the hands of those who disagreed with them...
"Believer's Baptism", ( in addition to re-baptizing those who had not been Scripturally baptized by immersion ) as well as the autonomy of the local church and it being the pillar and ground of the truth, among many other distinctives.

So, I identify as a "Baptist" because that is what a group like the Roman Catholic Church would probably call someone like me.

Myself, I belong to Christ, and He belongs to me.
He is my exceeding and great reward.

God's word, the Bible, tells me much about how and why He saved me by His grace.
If not for that grace, I would have to answer for my every sin in the punishment of eternal torment.

Yes Dave, you are certainly Baptist, and I have nothing against it, Baptist have some positive doctrines and they understand Bible better than other denominations, no question about it.

But I firmly believe that it is up to GOD to decided who is His and who is not.

Concerning His grace, grace means mercy, and because of it He is merciful GOD, but it does not mean that He leaves guilty unpunished. GOD is very hard on criminals, unfaithful, and hypocrites, they do not deserve His grace (mercy).

Yes, He saves people by His merciful grace, but far not all.

Just like GOD saved remnant of Israel, so the remnant of Christians will be saved. Remnant means very few. So, many people who so sure that they already saved by the grace of GOD, do not know the opinion of GOD concerning them, and many will be greatly disappointed on the Day of Judgment.

 

[Dave G]

I think my avatar have right description. Seeking Christ is the life time process. We can achieve certain perfection but we never will be perfect.

Seeking Christ means improving yourself constantly, trying to achieve highest degree of spirituality in GOD.

I'm not sure I'm following what you're stating.
I've found Christ...
Or rather, He's found me, and that relationship only gets better as my life goes on.

He's taught me many things in His word through His Spirit, and humbled me much from what I was only 10 years ago.
He grows me and improves me through the many things He shows me in His word, and making good on His promises to deliver me and to work all things together for good, to them that love Him ( Romans 8:28 ).

Concerning faith, faith without works is dead and works without faith is dead, you must have both of them to achieve salvation. Just like head without body will not function and body without head is dead, you must have both to be alive and function.

I agree.
Faith without the evidence of works, which the believer was created in Christ Jesus to do ( Ephesians 2:10 ) is truly dead.
Works without faith, a faith that endures all of the trials and tribulations that come the believer's way, is what I tend to call "dead religion", and indicates a lack of a spirit to Spirit relationship with God and His Son.

Where the Spirit is, one will find those works that are truly good.
An example of good works would be selfless service to God's people.

Gift of eternal life in Romans 6.23 indeed free gift. But it does not means that this precious gift given to everyone. You do not give gifts to those who hate you and despise you, to those who mock you and ignoring you, to those who hurt you or neglect you, do you?

I agree, Alex.
When I read the Scriptures, I see that eternal life is a precious gift given to those that the Lord loves.

He first opens their hearts so that they will listen to His words ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 )...
They are "begotten" of His own will with the word of truth ( James 1:18 ).

We as believers go from being His enemies, to being reconciled in our minds to Him and His ways.

 

[Dave G]

Read that have been said about rewards.

I agree that there are rewards for those who love Him and serve Him.
But I do not see that love and service being the basis for His grace and mercy towards sinners.

Rather, I see the basis for the rewards and His many gifts as being His grace and mercy towards those He has decided to love ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-18 ).

But I firmly believe that it is up to GOD to decided who is His and who is not.

I agree.
But I also see that those who are His will manifest that fact outwardly...
A little at first, and then more and more as they grow in both knowledge and grace.

In other words, God does not work in a vacuum...
The recipients of His grace can and do begin to grow into living godly lives and manifesting the inner working of the Spirit outwardly.

In the Bible, it's known as the fruit of the Spirit ( Galatians 5:22-23 ), as opposed to the works of the flesh ( Galatians 5:19-21 ).

Concerning His grace, grace means mercy, and because of it He is merciful GOD, but it does not mean that He leaves guilty unpunished. GOD is very hard on criminals, unfaithful, and hypocrites, they do not deserve His grace (mercy).

I agree.
Hell will be a very terrible place for those He does not forgive, and who have earned their place there by their works.

I praise Him often for His mercy towards me through His Son Jesus Christ, a sinner with nothing to stand on except that mercy and grace.
Any good works that I do are but mere evidence that He has shown that grace to me...
They do not determine my destiny.

That destiny would have been the Lake of Fire were it not for His choosing me to salvation ( Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:4-11, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).

 

[Dave G]

Just like GOD saved remnant of Israel, so the remnant of Christians will be saved. Remnant means very few. So, many people who so sure that they already saved by the grace of GOD, do not know the opinion of GOD concerning them, and many will be greatly disappointed on the Day of Judgment.

Once again I agree.

I see the Bible teaching the fact of "wheat" and "tares".
Both true believers "planted" in His field by the Lord, and false "believers" who were planted in the Lord's field by His enemy ( Matthew 13 ).

"Tares" are those who think that they are saved, but never grow in grace and knowledge...
They fail to persevere in their faith through all that this life has to throw at them with regard to trials and tribulations...
and they are those that fall away from the hope of the Gospel and go back to the world and its ways both in their hearts and in their actions.

From my understanding of the Scriptures, they are those who think that their works are what saved them;
That their efforts at loving and serving Him are what gained them His favor and are what resulted in them receiving the gift of eternal life, which is to know God and His Son ( John 17:3 ).
They will be greatly disappointed on the day of Judgement, when the Lord says to them,
" ...I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." ( Matthew 7:21-23 ).

To me, this is why it's so important for those who profess Christ to continually examine themselves, to see if they are who the Bible says that they are.
Nevertheless, true believers can know that they are saved, not only by the comfort of the Spirit in them ( Romans 8:16 ), but by the things of the Spirit that are being manifest in them ( 1 John 5:1-13 ).


May God bless you sir.