Featured Irresistible Grace

Its saying specifically that they resist the Holy Spirit ?

 

Titus 2:11, "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, . . ."

 

Is that what you see would happen in the future with Israel, when Christ comes as the visible King in the Kingdom of God? If so, I'm genuinely having trouble reconciling this notion with Eph 1:10 - how could He gather all in Christ if He's going to save Israel outside of Christ? Or do you have more nuances here?

And to use your language, this isn't God technically saving people like the monergists use it, right? It's more like a second round of salvation offers to Israel and in God's omniscience, He simply happens to know ahead of time that Israel wouldn't thwart His plan again by saying No then, is it?

I tried interpreting Gal 3:8 along these lines and i cannot but find it inconsistent - do you have more nuance here too? If as you say, Gen 12:3 was looking forward to the originally planned Kingdom of God through Israel, which isn't yet established, then how is Paul applying the very fulfillment of that prophecy to the Galatians who are very much the church of Jesus Christ?

As we all do. I am not interested in playing Gotcha with anyone here - if we are interested in edification through persuasion, we must be willing to embrace constructive change both in us and others.

 

Yes. That is what will happen when Jesus Christ comes in his revelation. It is what would have happened when he came the first time. The promise of God of gentile blessing was to Abraham in his Abrahamic covenant (referenced in your Gal 3 comment in the last post, btw) and through his seed, Christ, and no promise was given directly to gentiles in the OT. Eph 2:10-12 says this. God can fullfill this promise to Abraham any way he chooses.

I would never say anyone can be saved outside of Christ. It is he who I am preaching and exalting the best I can. You apparently did not read the Romans passage I gave you. That passage gives the reason of unbelief for the nation to be cut off and only the small remnant being the foundation for the church of Jesus Christ with the gentiles being made partakers with them of the Spiritual blessings, which are the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the indwelling Holy Ghost and membership in the body of Christ. IOW, salvation from the penalty of sin through them. Salvation is of the Jews, Jesus said. In the same passage we are told there is a fullness of the gentiles which happens when gentiles will no longer believe and then .Jesus will come out of Zion, which is in Jerusalem, and save Israel. This passage assumes he has returned physically to Jerusalem. He is in heaven at this moment. This is a prophecy of future events and a mystery of God. The church of Jesus Christ is the subject of Eph 1:10, not Israel or the unbelieving gentiles and that event may be placed squarely between Rom 11:25 and 26.

I am sorry ivdavid, I don't have a clue about monergists.

Think kingdom. It is God keeping his unconditional covenant promises he made to this people Israel, who is a family and a nation. Four covenants that he swore to with an oath, which binds him to them and makes them legal documents. He is the judge of the whole earth. The four covenants;

Abrahamic
Palestinian (land covenant)
Davidic
New

No need for nuance when the words are clearly presented. The Abrahamic covenant promised blessing through the seed of Abraham, who is Jesus Christ. We learn that the blessing is the Holy Spirit of Christ which was poured out on the gentiles in Acts 10 when God sent Peter to initiate it by the conversion of Cornelius and his gentile family. This was 10 years after he was poured out on Israel in Acts 2 and after the Jews had rejected him and killed Stephan in Acts 7.

It is just a true statement to say that Israel was blinded by unbelief and only a small remnant believed. Those who did, received the Holy Ghost to indwell them, making them children of God and The Spirit put them into the body of Christ as functioning members of the body. Paul emphasized that they all received the Spirit (who is life) BY FAITH. Your religion says he was infused. Your religion is wrong.

Now God will accomplish the exact thing he intended for Israel and the nations at his second coming. The fierce persecution of Satan and the man of sin will create an environment that will drive them to Christ as their only hope. Many of the Psalms are about this reality. There is going to be a kingdom of Christ on this earth and all Israel who are breathing air after the dust settles will be saved and all who are left of the nations will be saved. They will however, not be in the church of Jesus Christ. The church of Jesus Christ is a new man.

We must believe the words of scripture and be careful to not add words or take words away. There is a penalty for that that none of us wants.

 

In Rom 11? Gentiles will no longer believe? Where are you reading this from exactly? It rather says after all the gentile nations believe, then Israel shall be saved - what am i missing in what you see?

Could you expand on this - how and from what will Jesus save Israel? Will they be saved from penalty of sin through faith in Jesus Christ? If yes, then how is that different from being put in the body of Christ - and if no, how are they justified and reconciled? Essentially, if flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, how will natural Israel be made Spiritual without faith in Christ's work on the cross?

You're missing my question - it cannot be called an 'unconditional' covenant promise if it requires the conditional cooperation of the people too for it to be fulfilled. You hold that Jesus attempted to fulfill the covenant promise when He came first but Israel thwarted Him by saying No to Him as King. Now you're holding that Jesus would be successful the next time round over Israel - so i asked, how are we so sure that Israel wouldn't thwart His plan again by saying No again - is it based on God looking ahead in His omniscience to declare with certainty what Israel would choose to do or is God Himself going to do anything decisively that would ensure Israel can never thwart Him the next time? Which is it?

Sure, no promise was given directly to the gentiles and I didn't imply such. It's just that you earlier said there was no OT prophecy concerning the new man, the body/church of Christ, whereas now you say this Abrahamic covenant which was mentioned in Gen 12:3 is fulfilled in the church of Christ from Acts 10 and in Gal 3. Which is it again?

 

Barry,

I noticed that you said that God does not choose people to salvation...
Which is what the words on the page outright state, do they not?

Regardless if it seems "terrible" to you, that is what the Scripture says.

That He chooses them through two things ( sanctification of the spirit and belief of the truth ) means to me that those are the two things that are involved in the process of Him choosing.
So, He did not choose them because of those things, but through them.

Again, it seems to me that you are rejecting the words on the page ( which clearly state that He actually chooses people to salvation ) to which I encourage you to trust the Lord with all your heart ( Proverbs 3:5-7 ), and believe the words and what they say, by faith...
Whether or not they "make sense" at this point.

Amen.
God had not appointed them to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ ( 1 Thessalonians 5:9 ).
" For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him."

Notice that they were indeed chosen to salvation per Paul' second letter to them, and they were not appointed unto God's wrath but to obtain salvation by the Lord Jesus Christ per Paul's first letter to them.

To me the words on the page are unmistakable, Barry.
Two distinct and clear declarations...

1) In 1 Thessalonians 5:9 it clearly tells the Thessalonians that they were not appointed to God's wrath, but rather to obtain salvation.
2) In 2 Thessalonians 2:13 it says that they were chosen to salvation.

Incidentally, no "systematic theology" book or piggy-backing off the writings of prominent "Calvinists" was need for me to see this;
Rather, I simply look at what the words on the page clearly state and believe those words by faith.

Again, I encourage you to do the same.

 

I have and many times, sir.
Thank you for your encouragement.

If you wish to identify me with the teachings of John Calvin, that is your prerogative.

But I do not take my understanding of God's word from John Calvin or from the writings of traditional "Calvinists" that teach a-millennialism, infant baptism, a general atonement, or those who think that it's OK to persecute and malign those who do not believe as they do ( which I don't see many "Calvinists" today who do that, but I am aware of some that often do ).

My God tells me not to speak evil of men ( Titus 3:2 ), to reject ( not persecute nor have put to death ) those who unrepentantly cause division in the churches ( Titus 3:10-11 ), and to do my level best to not only avoid the appearance of evil, but as much as lies within me to be at peace with all men.

He also tells me that I am to earnestly contend for the faith once delivered unto the saints ( Jude 1:3 ), to which I will gladly do so.

Neither do I, Barry.
All I need are the words on the page, without the writings of men to tell me what they mean.


May the Lord, in His wisdom and mercy, grant you many good gifts in the days to come, sir;
And may you always remember His love for His people and His willingness to deliver them out of all their trials and tribulations in this life.

 

" For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." ( Titus 2:11-14 )

Here's what I see when I read this:

11) The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
12) Teaching those "all men" that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, that those "all men" should live soberly, righteously and godly in this present world.
13) and that those "all men" should be looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and their Saviour Jesus Christ.
14) Who gave Himself for those "all men" so that He might redeem those "all men" from all iniquity and purify unto Himself a peculiar people ( that consists of "all men" ) who are zealous of good works.

If I may ask, what do you see when you read this?
Who are the "all men" to you?

"All men" in the context of Revelation 5:9, Revelation 7:9, Romans 1:16, Romans 9:24, Romans 10:12 and Romans 11:13-25?
Or "all men" in the context of Ecclesiastes 7:20, Romans 3:10-18, Romans 3:23, Romans 11:32, Galatians 6:10 and 1 Timothy 4:10?

 

That you assume that the "all men" to mean "us" in Titus 2:12. How do you come that from that context?
There is no doubt that "all men" would include us. But the saved are not "all men," unless one accepts the error of universsalism.

 

I followed the words on the page.
I simply understand the "all men" in verse 11 to be the "us" ( believers ) in verse 12.

No, I do not subscribe to universalism...
I maintain that God has a people ( the elect ), separate and distinct from the rest of mankind.

They are the ones redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, and they are the ones who will rule and reign with Him 1,000 years to be followed by a new Heaven and a new earth.

 

That makes no sense to me. The fact that there are individuals who resist the Spirit of grace, Hebrews 10:29, ". . . Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

 

It makes perfect sense to me.

I see that the people who resist the Spirit of grace are all of us, whose very nature it is to reject God from the heart.
That anyone stops resisting the Lord and His words is clear testament to His power to make men new creations in Christ by the miracle of the new birth...

To open someone's "heart" so that they attend to His words ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).

That is why I believe wholeheartedly in the concept of "irresistible grace"...
Because God doesn't ask permission to bestow His gifts to anyone;
He simply does it, and does so without our express permission.



Salvation by grace alone.

 

Titus 1:11-12, ". . . For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; . . ."

Your interpretation is irratipnal. "All men" are not "us." And to say that "all men" means "us" is total non sense, because that interpretation is simply not true.

 

With respect,
It's your right to understand the Lord's words any way you wish, as I'm not bound to demand how you should understand them.
I simply told you how I understand them and why.

Being "rational" or "logical" doesn't even enter in, in my opinion...
It's about context.
To me, that context can be immediate ( the passage itself ), greater ( "chapter" by "chapter" ) or greatest ( epistle or book to book ) depending on the subject.

For example:

As I see it, the context of "all men" in the passage cannot be every man, woman and child who ever lived...
Because God's grace that brings salvation has not appeared ( or been spiritually revealed, please see Matthew 11:25-27 ) to all of mankind;
But rather, it has been revealed to God's elect out of every tongue, tribe and nation, both Jew and Gentile alike ( those who will and have believed on Christ from the heart ), only.

I also see that it is believers alone who have "ears to hear" and "eyes to see" ( Matthew 11:15 and others )...
That it is Christ's sheep alone who have been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God ( Matthew 13:10-11 );
Those that are "of God" hear ( welcome or receive ) God's words ( John 8:43-47 ).
They are those who have the Holy Spirit and have been given that Spirit so that they might know the things that are freely given to them "of" God ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 ).
and they are those who are saved and do not think that the preaching of the cross is foolishness...
While those who are perishing do ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).

In addition, the lost are blind to the Gospel ( 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ), while the saved are not.


So, I take this understanding of who God's children are and what they have, and I apply it to this passage.

I also notice that the entire letter is written to a believer, not an unbeliever.
A believer who has had the Lord and His word graciously revealed to him by the Spirit of God...
Titus.
He was a man much like the Ethiopian eunuch was...
Who recognized His need of a Saviour and believed through the preaching of Phillip ( Acts of the Apostles 8:26-39 ).



I wish you well, sir, and may He bless you with all wisdom in your studies.

 

First, thank you for your attempt to explain your understanding to me.
As you presented it, I am not following it. So for me I fail to see the sense of your point of view.

I agree with an issue of context, but for me it remains to be also a matter of being logical/rational.

 

Again true to form . Context is ignored in favour of the buzz word . In this case not just ' Chosen !!!! , chosen , chosen chosen . But then ' Salvation !!! salvation ,salvation.
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Context , context, context...its almost painful.
Ok the salvation that is to be obtained is not conversion . Its future completetion . He's already talking to believers .

its the same here .
rom 13.11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our SALVATION is nearer than when we believed.
In the same context ( end times ) They are not destined to wrath ( tribulation) no church age believer is .

 

13¶But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning ( which beginning ? Notice the absencec of ' before the foundation ' which is what every calvinist has been programmed to see ) chosen you to salvation ( the means ,the vehicle THROUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! tap dancing and ice skating ? THROUGH suffering the Tribulation and avoiding the anti christ ? Or THROUGH!!!!!!! sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:? I'm going with the latter . Why ? because from the beginning paul told them they would not go through the Tribulation and miss the Lords return .Inspite of the false letter which had troubled them greatly . Paul had to remind them ,inspite of the persecution this was not God's wrath and they had not missed the Lords return .They were not destined for that . After believing they were from the beginning Chosen not through wrath but sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. Thats the message we share today still .