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"Maybe its real ,and I'm not Chosen "
- Thread starter Barry Johnson
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Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Yes none of those say we are saved before we believe.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Semantics. You are demanding an exact wording since several of those clearly claim that some were PREDESTINED to be saved (before they believed).
You have no scripture that say man believes before he is saved.
Where is the verse that says "man believes before he is saved" since we are being pedantic for exact phrases?
From what I read, Dave G didn't say that. He indicated man is elect before he believes. That is a big difference.
Election insures ones salvation. But until one actually comes to Christ, he is not saved, he is lost. Until the elect come to Christ, they are lost. And Jesus seeks them out.
Quantrill
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Let us both look at that a little closer:
" Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4 but when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. " ( Galatians 4:3-6 ).
Verse 3 tells me that believers, when they were yet children, were in bondage to the elements of the world.
Verse 4: God sent forth His Son in the fullness of time. His Son, made of a woman ( Mary ), and made under the Law ( He came unto His own, Israel, who were under the Law of Moses at that time ).
Verse 5: His Son was sent forth to redeem them that were under the Law, so that they might receive the adoption of sons ( see Ephesians 1:5, they were predestinated to it ).
Verse 6: Because believers ARE ( not "will be" ) His sons ( children ), God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son ( the Holy Spirit ) into their hearts.
See Ephesians 2:1-10, as to me, it parallels this same thing, in many of the details.
Even when we ( God's children ) were without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly...His children ( Romans 5:6 ).
When they were yet enemies, they were reconciled to God by the death of His Son ( Romans 5:10 ).
If they were lost, then they would have never treated the preaching of the cross as anything other than foolishness...
Which is what I see 1 Corinthians 1:18 developing.
That's what I see when I put all the pieces together;
and because of that, I conclude that God's children were not saved at belief, but at the point that the Lord made the decision to save them ( Ephesians 1:4-5 )…
Before the foundation of the world.
Election is God's decision to save.
His love was set on those He decided to save long before they were ever born.
Salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, and by no man's efforts.
Known from the beginning were all His works, and they have an inheritance prepared for them from the foundation of the world...
Eternal life, which is to know God and His Son.
Yet there is not one Gentile ever called elect in scripture. There is no place where God Him self elects Gentiles. Election is not insurance that any one will be saved.
MB
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Luk_7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
Act_15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Belief always come first .
MB
I am not teaching. I am debating the truth of scripture which you ignore in favor of false doctrine.
MB
The fact is that most were Jews and I seriously doubt that Gentiles were in a synagogue. Paul always taught in the synagogues. While in Jail and preaching there he never once referred to anyone as elect. While He was in Greece at Athens he never once mention election or called anyone elect. You are ignorant of scripture it's easy to tell you haven't studied much. You need to read the Bible.
MB
atpollard
Well-Known Member
So to paraphrase our brother Barry: "Yes, none of those say 'man believes before he is saved' ".
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Eph 1.13
13¶In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Chosen and elected for what ? To do what?
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Why shouldn't we have a verse that says man cannot believe the gospel unti he is saved ? that would be pretty useful to know in evangelism. I don't know what else the scriptures would have to say if you doubt that it does say believing comes first. it really is quite remarkable that we have an established, respected theological system that claims the bible says ' regeneration precedes faith ' . Anyone who ever read the Bible is always perplexed by this strange doctrine . Even Calvinists will admit this was hard to swallow at the beginning . But soon after because of the pressure of the entire system depending on it give into it . From that moment on they have given there sense making over to the System ( Augustine's Calvinism)
If The bible really is saying God saves those that believe rather than cause belief in those he saves, how should the bible have said it ?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Yes, more verses that do not say "man believes before he is saved".
Remember, you are the one that insisted on exact wording rather than addressing verses that teach the message.
I am just honoring the rules YOU set when you refused to engage the texts MB requested and Dave G provided.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
@Barry Johnson
Why shouldn't we have a verse that says "man can believe the gospel before God calls him? That would be pretty useful to know in evangelism. I don't know what else the scriptures would have to say if you doubt that it does say faith is a gift from God. It really is quite remarkable that we have an established, respected theological system that claims the bible says 'faith precedes predestination' . Anyone who ever read the Bible is always perplexed by this strange doctrine .
If The bible really is saying God saves those He chooses rather than those that choose to be saved, how should the bible have said it ?
Why shouldn't we have a verse that says "man can believe the gospel before God calls him? That would be pretty useful to know in evangelism. I don't know what else the scriptures would have to say if you doubt that it does say faith is a gift from God. It really is quite remarkable that we have an established, respected theological system that claims the bible says 'faith precedes predestination' . Anyone who ever read the Bible is always perplexed by this strange doctrine .
If The bible really is saying God saves those He chooses rather than those that choose to be saved, how should the bible have said it ?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
ἐκλεκτός eklektós, ek-lek-tos'; from G1586; select; by implication, favorite:—chosen, elect.
- [Mat 22:14 NASB] 14 "For many are called, but few [are] chosen."[G1588]
- [Mat 24:22, 24, 31 NASB] 22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect[G1588] those days will be cut short. ... 24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.[G1588] ... 31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect[G1588] from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
- [Mar 13:20, 22, 27 NASB] 20 "Unless the Lord had shortened [those] days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect,[G1588] whom He chose, He shortened the days. ... 22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.[G1588] ... 27 "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect[G1588] from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.
- [Luk 18:7 NASB] 7 now, will not God bring about justice for His elect[G1588] who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?
- [Luk 23:35 NASB] 35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen[G1588] One."[G1588]
- [Rom 8:33 NASB] 33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect?[G1588] God is the one who justifies;
- [Rom 16:13 NASB] 13 Greet Rufus, a choice[G1588] man[G1588] in the Lord, also his mother and mine.
- [Col 3:12 NASB] 12 So, as those who have been chosen[G1588] of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;
- [1Ti 5:21 NASB] 21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of [His] chosen[G1588] angels, to maintain these [principles] without bias, doing nothing in a [spirit of] partiality.
- [2Ti 2:10 NASB] 10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen,[G1588] so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus [and] with [it] eternal glory.
- [Tit 1:1 NASB] 1 Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen[G1588] of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,
- [1Pe 1:1 NASB] 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen[G1588]
- [1Pe 2:4, 6, 9 NASB] 4 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice[G1588] and precious in the sight of God, ... 6 For [this] is contained in Scripture: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE[G1588] STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER [stone,] AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." ... 9 But you are A CHOSEN[G1588] RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR [God's] OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
- [2Jo 1:1, 13 NASB] 1 The elder to the chosen[G1588] lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not only I, but also all who know the truth, ... 13 The children of your chosen[G1588] sister greet you.
- [Rev 17:14 NASB] 14 "These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him [are the] called and chosen[G1588] and faithful."
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