"Maybe its real ,and I'm not Chosen "

[Quantrill]

Why do you assume that? The Pharisee's the people who murmured against Him and left because they could not conceive what He was saying about eating His flesh and drinking His blood. They all had been drawn according to you. This is why I said this drawing was for the disciples.

What if the whole world will be saved. Would it upset you and if so why?
The Father sent the son to save the world isn't this the Father's will. I'm not claiming the whole world will be saved. I'm saying that it's God's will.

Obviously there are many who will not be saved because they do not believe. No one is saved with out believing.
MB

Why do I assume what?

Quantrill

 

[canadyjd]

See with your deduction I can easily counter that with ' God can execute salvation any way He pleases. which is what I believe. God’s sovereignty in salvation means that he executes it in accordance with Scripture and not in accordance with Hindu Fatalism.

I agree with you that God can execute salvation any way He pleases. I believe He choses, according to scripture.

If your statements are true, then God has chosen to execute salvation in a way that He knows will exclude many/most from coming to salvation, i e He convicts everyone “the same”, instead of convicting everyone according to their need.

That means He passes over many/most for salvation.

Your statement that He convicts everyone the “same” is clearly untrue, since the gospel is necessary for salvation and billions have lived and died never hearing the gospel.

peace to you

 

[37818]

How are you understanding ' sanctification ' ?

Is what God does being Holy by presenting His truth (John 17:17) so to be heard (Romans 10:17). Compare Exodus 3:5.
(1 Peter 1:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.)

 

[Dave G]

No one is saved with out believing in Christ Jesus.

Amen.

We already know Judas was drawn but was lost

If he were drawn, he would have believed and Christ would have raised him up at the last day.

Obviously there are many who will not be saved because they do not believe. No one is saved with out believing.

Belief of the Gospel does not save anyone.

God saves, and God keeps.
However, no one is saved without their belief of the Gospel.

Let me ask you the same question I asked someone else. Would it upset you if all were saved.?

Not one bit.
Would it upset you if God, for His own purposes, decided to have mercy on some and not all?

I'm not claiming the whole world will be saved because being drawn does not mean you will believe.

It does according to John 6:37-47.

The problem I'm seeing, MB, is that you're not following the words on the page.
Therefore, I urge to look closely at what is being established there.

 

[Dave G]

Look this passage over real close.

I agree...
Let's look at it real carefully:

" But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." ( John 6:36-45 ).

Which comes first...
Being given to the Son by the Father, or believing on Jesus and coming to Him?

Another:

" Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:43-47 )

Again...

When you read this very carefully,
Which comes first, being "of God" or believing God's words?

Here's what I see:

Verse 43 asks the question, "why do you not understand my speech?"
It is then answered clearly in the last half...
"because you cannot hear my words".

MB,
One either believes the words on the page as they are laid out, or one does not.
Are you sure you're believing them as they are laid out?


May God bless you in your studies, sir.

 

[37818]

Are you seeing the sanctification before or after conversion?.

Before conversuon, See Hebrews 10:29.

 

[Barry Johnson]

I agree with you that God can execute salvation any way He pleases. I believe He choses, according to scripture.

If your statements are true, then God has chosen to execute salvation in a way that He knows will exclude many/most from coming to salvation, i e He convicts everyone “the same”, instead of convicting everyone according to their need.

That means He passes over many/most for salvation.

Your statement that He convicts everyone the “same” is clearly untrue, since the gospel is necessary for salvation and billions have lived and died never hearing the gospel.

peace to you

Again were back into philosophy and speculation. We should just be concerned with what the bible says . The authority of the scriptures .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Before conversuon, See Hebrews 10:29.

So are you saying people are ' set apart ' before conversion ? in what sense ?

 

[MB]

Why do I assume what?

You posted; "I disagree. If 'all' represents all of mankind, then all are saved. (John 6:44) "No man can come to me, except the Father, which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.' The only ones drawn here are those who will be saved.

The verse assumes some are not drawn. Not all can come to Christ.

Quantrill";
You don't believe that all the men there are drawn? What were they doing following Christ around? If not drawn.
This is why I said He was speaking to His disciples.

What about the rich young ruler who came and asked how to have eternal life. Was he drawn?
Drawing does not save any one only believing in Christ saves. The disciples were given to Christ. they were chosen. The rest were not given
MB

 

[37818]

So are you saying people are ' set apart ' before conversion ? in what sense ?

It can be stated that way. God does that that one might be able to hear. That does not force or stop the one from refusing to hear.

 

[AustinC]

See with your deduction I can easily counter that with ' God can execute salvation any way He pleases. which is what I believe. God’s sovereignty in salvation means that he executes it in accordance with Scripture and not in accordance with Hindu Fatalism.

Therefore God pleases to choose whom he wills and not choose whom he wills.
No Hindu fatalism. God is not an unthinking force. If you want that, become an darwinian naturalist whereby nature predestines all events.
It is very sad that you imagine the Supremacy of God to have full authority over his creation as some sort of Hindu fatalism. Are you so in need of control that you cannot bare the idea that God rules over you? Are you still in rebellion against God's authority over all areas of your life?

 

[canadyjd]

Again were back into philosophy and speculation. We should just be concerned with what the bible says . The authority of the scriptures .

I see you do not want to engage this issue, but rather ignore all questions asked and simply regurgitate your stated beliefs without interacting with those who disagree.

Therefore, since we are talking past each other, I thank you for the conversation.

peace to you

 

[MB]

Amen.

If he were drawn, he would have believed and Christ would have raised him up at the last day.

I think you are confusing the two drawings one by the Father and one after the death of Christ. The one after the death of Christ says He will drawn all men to Him Self. The first drawing by the Father was basically for the disciples. Other wise we are both wrong and all will be saved. God does not allow us to add what we think has been left out.
Belief of the Gospel does not save anyone.

God saves, and God keeps.
However, no one is saved without their belief of the Gospel.

Not one bit.
Would it upset you if God, for His own purposes, decided to have mercy on some and not all?

Yes it does upset me that some do not believe. Take a look at the disciples they all left Christ alone after He was arrested. Not all the disciples believed Thomas doubted and Peter denied Him they were scattered. Is that belief? Don't get me wrong I'm not judging them yet I am puzzled.

It does according to John 6:37-47.


The problem I'm seeing, MB, is that you're not following the words on the page.
Therefore, I urge to look closely at what is being established there.

I have looked at it closely and the two drawings are not the same one is by the Father and the other by the son. You seem to think they are both the same and there not. You have neglected the Sons drawing in favor of the Fathers. When it is Christ who saves. All things have been given over to the Son.
MB

 

[Barry Johnson]

Therefore God pleases to choose whom he wills and not choose whom he wills.
No Hindu fatalism. God is not an unthinking force. If you want that, become an darwinian naturalist whereby nature predestines all events.
It is very sad that you imagine the Supremacy of God to have full authority over his creation as some sort of Hindu fatalism. Are you so in need of control that you cannot bare the idea that God rules over you? Are you still in rebellion against God's authority over all areas of your life?

We need to get to the text . We can have all sorts of ideas about stuff, but the scriptures will set us straight everytime .

 

[Barry Johnson]

I see you do not want to engage this issue, but rather ignore all questions asked and simply regurgitate your stated beliefs without interacting with those who disagree.

Therefore, since we are talking past each other, I thank you for the conversation.

peace to you

I'm happy to discuss the bible .

 

[Barry Johnson]

I agree...
Let's look at it real carefully:

" But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." ( John 6:36-45 ).

Which comes first...
Being given to the Son by the Father, or believing on Jesus and coming to Him?

Another:

" Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:43-47 )

Again...

When you read this very carefully,
Which comes first, being "of God" or believing God's words?

Here's what I see:

Verse 43 asks the question, "why do you not understand my speech?"
It is then answered clearly in the last half...
"because you cannot hear my words".

MB,
One either believes the words on the page as they are laid out, or one does not.
Are you sure you're believing them as they are laid out?


May God bless you in your studies, sir.

This kinda overlooks the obvious. Let's say The father draws and gives everyone to the Son ( they all fled and continued no more , but let's ignore that for a moment . Also the diciples are given for a specific role) . The elephant in the room is ,this is before the cross . The central most event in all the bible which changes everything. I believe the Father was drawing those to the Son before the cross up until Jesus says in John 12 ( same book )
30¶Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
Ok so now we have a clear verse about the drawing after the cross . Although they are drawn by the Son as we see with all those that were drawn by the Father it doesn't mean they all believed Jesus . Nor is Jesus a universalist.

 

[Quantrill]

You posted; "I disagree. If 'all' represents all of mankind, then all are saved. (John 6:44) "No man can come to me, except the Father, which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.' The only ones drawn here are those who will be saved.

The verse assumes some are not drawn. Not all can come to Christ.

Quantrill";
You don't believe that all the men there are drawn? What were they doing following Christ around? If not drawn.
This is why I said He was speaking to His disciples.

What about the rich young ruler who came and asked how to have eternal life. Was he drawn?
Drawing does not save any one only believing in Christ saves. The disciples were given to Christ. they were chosen. The rest were not given
MB

No, I don't believe that all of mankind is drawn. If they were, all of mankind would be saved. The 'drawing' mentioned in (John 6:44) pertains to the Father drawing for the purpose of salvation. Jesus had many following him who were only after the 'fringe benefits'. (John 2:23-24)

What about you give the verse you are addressing concerning the rich young ruler. There is nothing to indicate that the rich young ruler had anything in mind but trying to trip Jesus up concerning the Law. He wasn't drawn to Christ for salvation. He was drawn to try and proof he was right with God by the Law.

In other words, he was not drawn by the Father.

No, only the first 11 were drawn by the Father. Judas was not drawn for salvation. Every believer in Christ is drawn by the Father. (John 6:44) All who are drawn will be saved. (John 6:44) The 'drawing' concerns all the believers. Not just the disciples.

Quantrill

 

[AustinC]

I think you are confusing the two drawings one by the Father and one after the death of Christ. The one after the death of Christ says He will drawn all men to Him Self. The first drawing by the Father was basically for the disciples. Other wise we are both wrong and all will be saved. God does not allow us to add what we think has been left out.
Belief of the Gospel does not save anyone.



Yes it does upset me that some do not believe. Take a look at the disciples they all left Christ alone after He was arrested. Not all the disciples believed Thomas doubted and Peter denied Him they were scattered. Is that belief? Don't get me wrong I'm not judging them yet I am puzzled.

I have looked at it closely and the two drawings are not the same one is by the Father and the other by the son. You seem to think they are both the same and there not. You have neglected the Sons drawing in favor of the Fathers. When it is Christ who saves. All things have been given over to the Son.
MB

Your dichotomy is not biblically sound

 

[Barry Johnson]

No, I don't believe that all of mankind is drawn. If they were, all of mankind would be saved. The 'drawing' mentioned in (John 6:44) pertains to the Father drawing for the purpose of salvation. Jesus had many following him who were only after the 'fringe benefits'. (John 2:23-24)

What about you give the verse you are addressing concerning the rich young ruler. There is nothing to indicate that the rich young ruler had anything in mind but trying to trip Jesus up concerning the Law. He wasn't drawn to Christ for salvation. He was drawn to try and proof he was right with God by the Law.

In other words, he was not drawn by the Father.

No, only the first 11 were drawn by the Father. Judas was not drawn for salvation. Every believer in Christ is drawn by the Father. (John 6:44) All who are drawn will be saved. (John 6:44) The 'drawing' concerns all the believers. Not just the disciples.

Quantrill

And yet Jesus says He will draw all men when He be lifted up , signifying what death . So after His death Jesus draws ALL men , making a mockery out of Calvinism and its mistakes choosing to formulate doctrines on salvation based on verses before the Gospel even takes place.

 

[Dave G]

I have looked at it closely and the two drawings are not the same one is by the Father and the other by the son.

MB,
it seems that we agree on something, believe it or not.

I, too, think that the drawing done by the Father in John 6:44 is not the same as the drawing done by the Son in John 12:32.
But where we do not agree, is that to me the drawing in John 6:44 results in everyone that is drawn coming to Christ in belief...
Not just the disciples that were left after the rest went away.

Notice the language:

" All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." ( John 6:37-47 ).