Featured Why Proverbs 8:22 Cannot Refer to Jesus Christ.

I am NOT denying that Jesus Christ IS called in Scripture, "Wisdom". the point at issue is that at this place in 8:22, the reference is NOT to Jesus Christ. On the use of the Hebrew, "qânâh", I have already given the two leading Hebrew lexicons on this, both which say that at this place, the meaning is "create". Further, the Greek OT known as the LXX, was translated from the Hebrew, by the best Hebrew scholars at the time, and they used the Greek word that also has the meaning "created". Anyone who reads this verse, who has never been influenced by the "theology" of others, would never have said that this is Jesus. It is only because others have suggested this, over the centuries, that they follow their error. You must not forget that the KJV was very much influenced by the Latin Vulgate, and the Latin language, and adopted "posessed" here following the Latin. Liddell and Scotts great Greek lexicon, has not entry for the Greek word (κτίζω) that means, "possess", but does have, "produce, create, bring into being". The Greek word is first used by Homer, and uses it to mean, "to found". The LXX lexicon that I have, by JOHAN LUST / ERIK EYNIKEL KATRIN HAUSPIE, gives the meaning of the Greek as, "to create, Prv. 8:22". The evidence for both the original Hebrew, as well as the all important Greek LXX of the OT, is very clear, that at this place in Proverbs 8:22, the language here says the meaning is CREATE. We must be giuded by those who are authorities in the languages, whose works are used when translating the Bible around the world, and not by our "theological" understanding or bias.

 

Can I ask you this one question. What is the big deal for us to understand that Jesus Christ is the "Wisdom" in the Book of Proverbs, especially in 8:22, where, as I have shown from the leading language experts, that both the Hebrew and Greek LXX's use of the words, show that it is IMPOSSIBLE to mean Jesus Christ in this verse, as the Hebrew word, "qânâh", when used here, means CREATE. Are you saying that you know the Habrew language and usage of this word, better than the experts?

 

So you are saying that I, and many other godly Christians are "anti Christ", because they do not share you own personal theology? you seriously need help! You are now spaeking as a fool does!

 

Like my posts and reasoning are like a JW!!! you are seriously DELUDED!!!

 

the OP is about Proverbs 8:22 and its relation to Jesus, if there is one?

 

Why not address this to myself, as I have written the OP? The person you refer to might be a "professor", meaing what? I have quoted from the LEADING authorities on both Hebrew and Greek, and they are very much conclusive that the Hebrew and Greek means CREATE. I am sure that even John Of Japan would use these lexicons when trying to understand the meaning of a word! Most of the arguments here are purly "theological", and have little of nothing to do with the use of the actual languages used in the Bible, and their words as defined by the experts.

 

I thought that I'd give the definations of the Hebrew and Greek (LXX) use of the words as found in Proverbs 8:22. It is very clear that the authorities in these languages have shown, that in neither case that they are used as "possess", though can be the meaning in other languages, with akin words.

Lets discuss this as brethern in the Lord, and not have a mud-slinging match!

Brown, Driver, Briggs, Hebrew Lexicon

H7069

H7069. qanah

I. קָנָה84 verb get, acquire (Late Hebrew = Biblical Hebrew; Phoenician (Punic) מקנא, property [in cattle]; Assyrian ‡anû, gain, acquire, MeissnSuppl. 85; Arabic (,) acquire, procure; Sabean קני acquire, possess, CISiv,no.89, 5.6, קני noun property Idib,no.3, 8, 29, 3; Ethiopic acquire, subjugate; Aramaic קְנָא, (accquire); —

Qal81 Perfect3masculine singular ׳ק Gen_25:10 +; suffix נ֑ךָ קֶָ Deu_32:6, קָנָהוּ Lev_27:24; Lev_27:3feminine singularקָֽנְתָה Psa_78:54; Psa_78:2masculine singular קָנִיתָ Exo_15:16 +, etc.; Imperfect3masculine singular יִקְנֶךְ Lev_22:11 +, וַיִ֫קֶן Gen_33:19 +, etc.; Imperative masculine singular קְנֵח Gen_47:19 +; Infinitive absolute קָנֹה Lev_25:14; 1Ch_21:24, קָנוֺ 2Sa_24:24; cstr. קְנֹה Pro_16:16, קְנוֺת Pro_16:16 +, etc.; Participle קֹנֶה Deu_28:68, קְוֺנֶה Pro_15:32 +, etc.; —

1 get, acquire (all poetry) :

a. of God as originating, creating, וָאָרֶץ שָׁמַיִם קֹנֵה Gen_14:19, Gen_14:22; Deu_32:6 (Israel), Psa_139:13 (כִּלְֹיתָ֑י); Pro_8:22 ( חכמה q. v.).

b. of God as victoriously redeeming his people Exo_15:16; Isa_11:11; Psa_74:2 (|| גָּאַל) object הַרוֶֿה Psa_78:54.

c. of Eve, acquiring ׳אֶתיֿ קַיִן, (i.e. with the help of), Gen_4:1 (J).

d. of acquiring wisdom, knowledge (only Proverbs): Pro_1:5; Pro_4:5 (twice in verse); Pro_4:7 (twice in verse); Pro_15:32; Pro_16:16 (twice in verse); Pro_17:16; Pro_18:15; Pro_19:8; Pro_23:23.

2 elsewhere buy Exo_21:2 (E), Gen_47:22 (J), Gen_50:13 (P), Lev_27:24(H), Deu_28:68; Isa_24:2; Jer_13:1; Eze_7:12; Pro_20:14 +; קֹנֶה owner, as purchaser Lev_25:30 (P) Isa_1:3; Zec_11:5 +.

Niph`al be bought: Perfect3masculine singular נִקְנָה Jer_32:43; Imperfect3masculine plural יִקָּנוּ Jer_32:15.

Hiph`il Perfect3masculine singular suffix חִקְנַנִי אָדָם Zec_13:5; AV makes denominative of מִקְנֶה cattle; Thes RV MartiKau Buhl caused (one) to purchase me, i.e. made me a bondman; < We Now GASm read קִנְיָנִי אֲרָמָה — Participle מַקְנֶה see קנא.


Gesenius Hebrew Lexicon


GES7028

קָנָה

fut. יִקְנֶה; apoc. יִקֶן prop. to erect, to set upright, i.q. הֵכִין (cogn. to כּוּן, קִין; whence קָנֶה, קָנָה reed, cane); hence-

(1) to found, create [see note below] the heaven and the earth, Gen_14:19, 22 Gen_14:22men, Deu_32:6 Psa_139:13 Pro_8:22 (Arab. قنا i.q. خلق to create as God; see Kamûs, p. 1937).

(2) to acquire for oneself, Pro_4:7 15:32 16:16 19:8 Rth_4:9, 10 to obtain, Gen_4:1 (Eth. ቀነየ፡ to possess, to be owner). Specially-

(3) to buy (compare Lat. conciliare, for emere, Ter. Eun. iv. 4, 2), Gen_25:10 47:22 , etc.; also to redeem (people out of captivity), Isa_11:11 Neh_5:8.

[Note. There does not appear to be any sufficient ground for ascribing the sense of to create to this verb; in all the passages cited for that sense, to possess, appears to be the true meaning; see Dr. M’Caul’s Sermon on the Divine Sonship of the Messiah. Append.]

Niphal, to be acquired, bought, Jer_32:15, 43 Jer_32:43.

Hiphil, Zec_13:5 prob. i.q. Kal No. 3, to buy [in Thes. “to sell”]. But מַקְנֶה Eze_8:3, is for מַקְנִיא exciting the jealousy or anger (of God). Hence [the following words, and קִנְיָן, מִקְנֶה, מִקְנָה, and pr.n. קְנָת]-


Liddell & Scott Greek Lexicon


G2936

κτίζω,

Emp. 23.6, etc.: fut. - ίσω A. Ch. 1060: aor. ἔκτῐσα Od. 11.263, etc.; poet. ἔκτισσα Pi. P. 1.62, A. Pers. 289 (lyr.), κτίσσα Il. 20.216, κτίσα Pi. P. 5.89: pf. ἔκτῐκα Lyr.Alex.Adesp. 1.8, D.S. 7.5, 15.13: —

Med., poet. aor. ἐκτίσσατο Pi. O. 10(11).25, Fr. 1.4 (ἐκτής - codd.): —

Pass., fut. κτισθήσομαι Str. Chr. 5.38, D.H. 1.56: aor. ἐκτίσθην Th. 1.12, etc.: pf. ἔκτισμαι Hdt. 4.46, Hp. Art. 45, E. Fr. 360.9: —

1. people a country, build houses and cities in it, κτίσσε δὲ Δαρδανίην Il.l.c.; κ. χώρην, νῆσον, Hdt. 1.149, 3.49.

2. of a city, found, build, Θήβης ἕδος ἔκτισαν Od.l.c., cf. Hdt. 1.167, 168, Th. 6.4, PCair.Zen. 169 (iii B.C.); ἀποικίαν A. Pr. 815: — Pass., to be founded, Σμύρνην τὴν ἀπὸ Κολοφῶνος κτισθεῖσαν founded by emigrants from Colophon, Hdt. 1.16, cf. 7.153, 8.62; μήτε ἄστεα μήτε τείχεα ἐκτισμένα no fixed cities or walls, Id. 4.46; - ομένη πόλις Phld. Rh. 2.155 S.

3. κ. ἄλσος plant a grove, Pi. P. 5.89; βωμόν set up an altar, Id. O. 7.42; ἑορτάν, ἀγῶνα, found, establish it, ib. 6.69, 10(11).25 (Med.); τὸν Κύρνον.. κτίσαι, ἥρων ἐόντα establish his worship, Hdt. 1.167; δαῖτάς τινι A. Ch. 484 (Pass.); τάφον τινί S. Ant. 1101; αἵρεσιν Phld. Rh. 1.77 S.; σύνοδον IG 22.1343.12 (i B.C.).

4. produce, create, bring into being, γόνῳ τινά A. Supp. 172 (lyr.); bring about, τελευτήν ib. 140 (lyr.), cf. Ch. 441 (lyr.); ὁ τὴν φιλίην ἐκτικώς Lyr.Alex.Adesp. l.c.; of painters, δένδρεα.. καὶ ἀνέρας ἠδὲ γυναῖκας Emp.l.c.; ἵπποισι τὸν χαλινὸν κτίσας having invented it, S. OC 715 (lyr.).

5. make so and so, ἐλεύθερον κ. τινά A. Ch. 1060; ἔνθεον κτίσας φρένα Id. Eu. 17, cf. 714; ποτανὰν εἴ σέ τις θεῶν κτίσαι E. Supp. 620 (lyr.), cf. A. Pers. 289 (lyr.).

6. perpetrate a deed, S. Tr. 898. (Cf. Skt. kséti 'reside', k[snull ]itís (= cross κτίσις) 'habitation'.)


Thayer Greek Lexicon

G2936

κτίζω: 1 aorist ἔκτισα; perfect passive ἐκτισμαι; 1 aorist passive ἐκτίσθην; the Sept. chiefly for áÈÌøÈà; properly, to make habitable, to people, a place, region, island (Homer, Herodotus, Thucydides, Diodorus, others); hence to found, a city, colony, state, etc. (Pindar and following; 1Es_4:53). In the Bible, to create: of God creating the world, man, etc., Mar_13:19; 1Co_11:9; Col_1:16 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 272 (255)); ; Eph_3:9; 1Ti_4:3; Rev_4:11; Rev_10:6 (Deu_4:32; Ecc_12:1; often in O. T. Apocrypha, as Jdt_13:18; Wis_2:23 Wis_11:18 (); 3Ma_2:9; (Josephus, Antiquities 1, 1, 1; Philo de decal. § 20)); absolutely, ὁ κτίσας, the creator, Rom_1:25; (Mat_19:4 Tr WH); equivalent to to form, shape, i. e. (for substance) completely to change, to transform (of the moral or new creation of the soul, as it is called), κτισθέντες ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ ἐπί ἔργοις ἀγαθοῖς, in intimate fellowship with Christ constituted to do good works (see ἐπί, B. 2 a. ζ.), Eph_2:10; τούς δύο εἰς ἕνα καινόν ἐνθρωπον, ibid. 15; τόν κτισθέντα κατά Θεόν, formed after God's likeness (see κατά, II. 3 c. δ.), Eph_4:24 (καρδίαν καθαράν κτίσον ἐν ἐμοί, Psa_50:12 ()).


Arndt & Gingrich Greek Lexicon (sorry the Greek fonts did not show up, though the meanings are there)


ktivzw

ktivzw 1 aor. e[ktisa ; pf. pass. e[ktismai ; 1 aor. pass. ejktivsqhn ( Hom. +; inscr. , pap. , LXX ) create, in our lit. of God’s creative activity ( LXX ; En. , Ep. Arist. 185; Eupolis in Euseb., Pr. Ev. 9, 31; Philo , Decal. 97; Jos. , Bell. 3, 369; 379, Ant. 1, 27; Sib. Or. 3, 20; Fluchtaf. 4, 1; PGM 5, 98 ff ) ti; someth. 1 Ti 4:3 . ktivsin Mk 13:19 . to;n oujrano;n kai; ta; ejn aujtw`/ the heaven and what is in it Rv 10:6 . ta; pavnta ( Herm. Wr. 13, 17) 4:11 a; cf. b. oJ qeo;" oJ ta; pavnta ktivsa" Eph 3:9 ; Hm 1:1; cf. s 5, 5, 2 and D 10:3; pass. Col 1:16 a, b ( cf. ejn I 5a). oJ qeo;" ktivsa" ejk tou` mh; o[nto" ta; o[nta what is from what is not Hv 1, 1, 6. to;n kovsmon v l, 3, 4. to;n kovsmon e{neka tou` ajnqrwvpou m 12, 4, 2. ta; e[qnh s 4:4. to;n laovn s 5, 6, 2. Pass. ejktivsqh ajnhvr 1 Cor 11:9 . Of the church pavntwn prwvth ejktivsqh Hv 2, 4, 1. Of the angels oiJ prw`toi ktisqevnte" v 3, 4, 1; s 5, 5, 3. Abs. oJ ktivsa" the Creator ( Jos. , Bell. 3, 354) Ro 1:25 ; Mt 19:4 ( v.l. poihvsa"). oJ ta; pavnta ktivsa" the Creator of the universe Hs 7:4 ( PGM 13, 62 to;n pavnta ktivsanta ; 983).—Also of the Spirit to; pneu`ma to; ktivsan pa`san th;n ktivsin Hs 5, 6, 5.—Of the divine creative activity w. regard to the inner life of man: of men who were ktisqevnte" ejn Cristw`/ jIhsou` ejpi; e[rgoi" ajgaqoi`" created (by God) in Christ Jesus for good deeds Eph 2:10 . i{na tou;" duvo ktivsh/ ejn aujtw`/ eij" e{na kaino;n a[nqrwpon in order that he (Christ) might make them both (Jews and Gentiles) one new man in him vs. 1 5. to;n kaino;n a[nqrwpon to;n kata; qeo;n ktisqevnta ejn dikaiosuvnh/ the new man, created in the likeness of God in righteousness 4:2 4. Corresp. to;n nevon (a[nqrwpon) to;n ajnakainouvmenon eij" ejpivgnwsin katÆ eijkovna tou` ktivsanto" aujtovn the new man, who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of his Creator Col 3:10 . ejgenovmeqa kainoiv, pavlin ejx ajrch`" ktizovmenoi we became new, created again from the beginning B 16:8. kardivan kaqara;n ktivson ejn ejmoiv 1 Cl 18:10 (Ps 50:12 ).
S. on ejkloghv , end, and Teschendorf under givnomai I 2a.—PKatz, The Mng. of the root hnq : Journal of Jewish Studies 5, 126-31; WFoerster, TW III 999-1034 ktivzw and related words. M-M. **

 

this thread is only dealing with Proverbs 8:22, and especially the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek, for the word the KJV translates as "possessed". I have never done a study of the use of "wisdom" in this whole Book, to say whether it anywhere refers to the Lord Jesus Christ. As I have said, I most certainly believe that Jesus is indeed called "Wisdom" in the Bible, as this is very clearly taught. If someone can show me from the language (not theology) used in 8:22, that this can refer to Jesus Christ, and if I am shown to be in error, then I will openly admit my mistake and accept the truth, if it is different to what I believe now.