Why Proverbs 8:22 Cannot Refer to Jesus Christ.

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

this thread is only dealing with Proverbs 8:22, and especially the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek, for the word the KJV translates as "possessed". I have never done a study of the use of "wisdom" in this whole Book, to say whether it anywhere refers to the Lord Jesus Christ. As I have said, I most certainly believe that Jesus is indeed called "Wisdom" in the Bible, as this is very clearly taught. If someone can show me from the language (not theology) used in 8:22, that this can refer to Jesus Christ, and if I am shown to be in error, then I will openly admit my mistake and accept the truth, if it is different to what I believe now.

To limit a discussion of the wisdom of Proverbs 8 to a single verse in that chapter is to claim without argument or proof that the occurrence is independent of all others. Is that what you intend, what you insist must be?

 

[tyndale1946]

Why not address this to myself, as I have written the OP? The person you refer to might be a "professor", meaing what? I have quoted from the LEADING authorities on both Hebrew and Greek, and they are very much conclusive that the Hebrew and Greek means CREATE. I am sure that even John Of Japan would use these lexicons when trying to understand the meaning of a word! Most of the arguments here are purly "theological", and have little of nothing to do with the use of the actual languages used in the Bible, and their words as defined by the experts.

Now I am addressing you... You wanted an expert... I'm sure all the brethren involved in this discussion have heard of John Gill an English Bible scholar born in the latter part of the 1600's... Learned Greek at the age of 11 and Hebrews later... This was taken from his best work, his Exposition on The Old And New Testament... If he is not an expert, then you show me one?... Gill can explain it, a lot better than I will ever be able to, from the writings of John Gill, on Proverbs 8:22... Brother Glen

The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way
Not "created me", as the Targum and the Septuagint version; which version Arius following gave birth to his pernicious doctrine; who from hence concluded Christ is a creature, and was the first creature that God made, not of the same but of a like nature with himself, in some moment or period of eternity; and by whom he made all others: the Word, or Wisdom of God is never said to be created; and if as such he was created, God must have been without his Wisdom before he was created; besides, Christ, as the Word and Wisdom of God, is the Creator of all things, and not created, ( John 1:1-3 ) ; but this possession is not in right of creation, as the word is sometimes used, ( Genesis 4:1 ) ( Deuteronomy 32:6 ) ; it might be more truly rendered, "the Lord begat me", as the word is translated by the Septuagint in ( Zechariah 13:5 ) ; it denotes the Lord's having, possessing, and enjoying his word and wisdom as his own proper Son; which possession of him is expressed by his being with him and in him, and in his bosom, and as one brought forth and brought up by him; as he was "in the beginning of his way" of creation, when he went forth in his wisdom and power, and created all things; then he did possess his Son, and made use of him, for by him he made the worlds: and "in the beginning of his way" of grace, which was before his way of creation; he began with him when he first went out in acts of grace towards his people; his first thoughts, purposes, and decrees concerning their happiness, were in him; the choice of their persons was made in him; God was in him contriving the scheme of their peace, reconciliation, and salvation; the covenant of grace was made with him, and all fulness of grace was treasured up in him: the words may be rendered, "the Lord possessed me, the beginning of his way" F8; that is, who am the beginning, as he is; the beginning of the creation of God, the first cause, the efficient of it, both old and new; see ( Colossians 1:18 ) ( Revelation 3:14 ) . So Aben Ezra, who compares with this ( Job 40:19 ) . This shows the real and actual existence of Christ from eternity, his relation to Jehovah his Father, his nearness to him, equality with him, and distinction from him: it is added, for further illustration and confirmation's sake, before his works of old;
the creation of the heavens and the earth; a detail of which there is in the following verses.

 

[SavedByGrace]

However, I would be most interested in a Mosaic or even Solomonic lexicon for reference

The Jewish Targum on this verse reads, "Elaha barani bereish biriteiah, "God created me in the beginning of his creatures."

The Jewish Study Bible (editors, Adele Berlin and Marc Zvi Brettler) reads: "The LORD created me at the beginning of His course As the first of His works of old.", with this note

"Created me: Since ancient times, interpreters have disputed whether the verb "kanah" means "created" or "acquired." The latter allows for the possibility that wisdom existed from eternity and was coeval with God. Some Christian groups preferred this, since they identified wisdom with the Logos, which was in turn identified with the Christ. It is, however, clear from v. 23 that wisdom is a created being. In fact, "kanah" refers to acquisition by any means, including creation, as here."

 

[SavedByGrace]

To limit a discussion of the wisdom of Proverbs 8 to a single verse in that chapter is to claim without argument or proof that the occurrence is independent of all others. Is that what you intend, what you insist must be?

did you not read the title of this thread?

Why Proverbs 8:22 Cannot Refer to Jesus Christ

 

[SavedByGrace]

Now I am addressing you... You wanted an expert... I'm sure all the brethren involved in this discussion have heard of John Gill an English Bible scholar born in the latter part of the 1600's... Learned Greek at the age of 11 and Hebrews later... This was taken from his best work, his Exposition on The Old And New Testament... If he is not an expert, then you show me one?... Gill can explain it, a lot better than I will ever be able to, from the writings of John Gill, on Proverbs 8:22... Brother Glen

The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way
Not "created me", as the Targum and the Septuagint version; which version Arius following gave birth to his pernicious doctrine; who from hence concluded Christ is a creature, and was the first creature that God made, not of the same but of a like nature with himself, in some moment or period of eternity; and by whom he made all others: the Word, or Wisdom of God is never said to be created; and if as such he was created, God must have been without his Wisdom before he was created; besides, Christ, as the Word and Wisdom of God, is the Creator of all things, and not created, ( John 1:1-3 ) ; but this possession is not in right of creation, as the word is sometimes used, ( Genesis 4:1 ) ( Deuteronomy 32:6 ) ; it might be more truly rendered, "the Lord begat me", as the word is translated by the Septuagint in ( Zechariah 13:5 ) ; it denotes the Lord's having, possessing, and enjoying his word and wisdom as his own proper Son; which possession of him is expressed by his being with him and in him, and in his bosom, and as one brought forth and brought up by him; as he was "in the beginning of his way" of creation, when he went forth in his wisdom and power, and created all things; then he did possess his Son, and made use of him, for by him he made the worlds: and "in the beginning of his way" of grace, which was before his way of creation; he began with him when he first went out in acts of grace towards his people; his first thoughts, purposes, and decrees concerning their happiness, were in him; the choice of their persons was made in him; God was in him contriving the scheme of their peace, reconciliation, and salvation; the covenant of grace was made with him, and all fulness of grace was treasured up in him: the words may be rendered, "the Lord possessed me, the beginning of his way" F8; that is, who am the beginning, as he is; the beginning of the creation of God, the first cause, the efficient of it, both old and new; see ( Colossians 1:18 ) ( Revelation 3:14 ) . So Aben Ezra, who compares with this ( Job 40:19 ) . This shows the real and actual existence of Christ from eternity, his relation to Jehovah his Father, his nearness to him, equality with him, and distinction from him: it is added, for further illustration and confirmation's sake, before his works of old;
the creation of the heavens and the earth; a detail of which there is in the following verses.

why would you accept John Gill, whose "theology" tells him that the KJV is right here, who most probably is a KJVO person, and reject the Hebrew lexicons that I have referred to? Are you more interested in the man-made "theology" of this verse, or what it actually does teach? I still don't get the hang-up about this verse referring to Jesus Christ? It actually says NOTHING more to the Person of Jesus Christ, than we know from the whole of the Bible! But does open up the way to show that He was a created being, which the language says!

The Jewish Bible by Leeser, has it read "The Lord created me as the beginning of his way, the first of his works from the commencement"

As I have said, the Greek LXX (completed over 100 years before Jesus Christ was born, so could not be biased), a work done by the best Hebrew scholars from Israel at the time, used the Greek word, "κτίζω", and not the Greek, "ἔχω", which would have suited this theology? Do you think that Gill, and others who have their "theology" to address, know more than these Hebrew experts???

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

did you not read the title of this thread? Why Proverbs 8:22 Cannot Refer to Jesus Christ

Yes, and my statement stands, with the caveat that it could prove to be much worse than stated.

To limit a discussion of the wisdom of Proverbs 8 to a single verse in that chapter is to claim without argument or proof that the occurrence is independent of all others. Is that what you intend, what you insist must be?

 

[SavedByGrace]

with the caveat that it could prove to be much worse than stated

and how is that?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Dr Charles Ellicott has some interesting obversations on this verse. As I have said before, the heretical teaching of the "eternal generation" of Jesus Christ, in His divine nature, from the Father, is agrued by some from this very verse in Proverbs!

Proverbs 8:22
(22) The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way.—The Hebrew word translated” possessed” in this passage (qânah) seems originally to have signified to” set up” or “establish,” and is applied (1) to the “forming” of the heavens (Gen_14:19) and the “begetting” of a son, (Deu_32:6); next it signifies (2) to “acquire” (Gen_4:1), (3) to “purchase” (Gen_25:10), and (4) to “own,” as in Isa_1:3. From the fact that “set up” and “brought forth” are used just after as synonyms to it, it is most likely that (1) is the proper meaning of the word here, and that the sense of the passage is that Wisdom was “formed” or “begotten” before the Creation, comp. Psa_104:24. This agrees with the rendering of the most important Greek translation, the Septuagint (έκτισε). When in Christian times it was observed how well the description of Wisdom in Job and Proverbs harmonised with that of God the Son in the New Testament, such passages as this were universally applied to Him, and the present one was rightly interpreted as describing His eternal generation from the Father. Such was the view, for instance, of Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian. But when the Arian controversy arose, this phrase was seized upon by the opponents of our Lord’s Divinity, and claimed as teaching that He was, though the highest of created beings, still only a creature. The Catholics then changed their ground, some standing up for the rendering of Aquila, ἐκτήσατο (“acquired” or “possessed”), others applying the term έκτισε to Christ’s Incarnation (comp. “first-begotten among many brethren,” Rom_8:29), or to His being appointed to be the first principle or efficient cause of His creatures, the “beginning of the creation of God” (Rev_3:14). For references to the Fathers see Bishop Wordsworth’s note, and, for a like variation in the rendering of “first-begotten of every creature,” comp. Bishop Lightfoot’s note on Col_1:15.

 

[George Antonios]

The word translated in English versions like the KJV, "possessed", is from the Hebrew, "qânâh", which has the meaning of "creating", by the Act of God.

The KJB said possessed not "created". That is a classic knee-jerk reflex to slight the King James Bible, even when the word isn't wrong. And by the way, "qanah" in Hebrew as in my native Arabic, to this day still means "possess" or "obtain".
Proverbs 8 is Christ, but it's the trinity phasing out into God, the Word, and the Spirit, in order to enact creation.
So yes Proverbs 8 is Christ. No Proverbs 8 does not teach the eternal Sonship of Christ.
No need to change the wording.

 

[SavedByGrace]

The KJB said possessed not "created". That is a classic knee-jerk reflex to slight the King James Bible, even when the word isn't wrong. And by the way, "qanah" in Hebrew as in my native Arabic, to this day still means "possess" or "obtain".
Proverbs 8 is Christ, but it's the trinity phasing out into God, the Word, and the Spirit, in order to enact creation.
So yes Proverbs 8 is Christ. No Proverbs 8 does not teach the eternal Sonship of Christ.
No need to change the wording.

so you simply ignore the two leading Hebrew lexicons, which are used the world over when translating the Holy Bible, and in thousands of Bible colleges? You also want to dismiss the 70 Hebrew scholars who translated the Hebrew OT into Greek (LXX), who chose a Greek word that also means "create"? There is nothing "knee-jerk" about facts, just because you cannot agree with scholarship? My view of this has been the same for the time I got saved, way back in Feb 1982! Why should you be right in saying that Proverbs 8:22 is Jesus Christ? I don't intend to change anything!

 

[Yeshua1]

so you simply ignore the two leading Hebrew lexicons, which are used the world over when translating the Holy Bible, and in thousands of Bible colleges? You also want to dismiss the 70 Hebrew scholars who translated the Hebrew OT into Greek (LXX), who chose a Greek word that also means "create"? There is nothing "knee-jerk" about facts, just because you cannot agree with scholarship? My view of this has been the same for the time I got saved, way back in Feb 1982! Why should you be right in saying that Proverbs 8:22 is Jesus Christ? I don't intend to change anything!

The onus is upon those who see Jesus as being described in there, as indeed the Hebrew text does not support Him as being the One pictured!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I am NOT denying that Jesus Christ IS called in Scripture, "Wisdom". the point at issue is that at this place in 8:22, the reference is NOT to Jesus Christ. On the use of the Hebrew, "qânâh", I have already given the two leading Hebrew lexicons on this, both which say that at this place, the meaning is "create". Further, the Greek OT known as the LXX, was translated from the Hebrew, by the best Hebrew scholars at the time, and they used the Greek word that also has the meaning "created". Anyone who reads this verse, who has never been influenced by the "theology" of others, would never have said that this is Jesus. It is only because others have suggested this, over the centuries, that they follow their error. You must not forget that the KJV was very much influenced by the Latin Vulgate, and the Latin language, and adopted "posessed" here following the Latin. Liddell and Scotts great Greek lexicon, has not entry for the Greek word (κτίζω) that means, "possess", but does have, "produce, create, bring into being". The Greek word is first used by Homer, and uses it to mean, "to found". The LXX lexicon that I have, by JOHAN LUST / ERIK EYNIKEL KATRIN HAUSPIE, gives the meaning of the Greek as, "to create, Prv. 8:22". The evidence for both the original Hebrew, as well as the all important Greek LXX of the OT, is very clear, that at this place in Proverbs 8:22, the language here says the meaning is CREATE. We must be giuded by those who are authorities in the languages, whose works are used when translating the Bible around the world, and not by our "theological" understanding or bias.

It is interesting that you will accept the translators of the LXX (who were not, of course, Christian, and we have no idea of any of their names) as being 'the best,' but not the translators of the KJV, whose names we do know and who (whatever one thinks of the theology of some of them) were also very learned men. You also dismiss John Gill as being KJV-only, when he was generally regarded as the finest Hebraist of his generation. I suggest that it might be you who is 'influenced by the theology of others.'

If you knew anything about translating one language into another, you would know that it involves a whole lot more that picking words out of a dictionary. Context and usage are even more important. I pointed out to you that qânâh is translated as 'get' in Proverbs 4:5 and 4:7. 'Create' is not a possible translation in those verses; 'possess' is. Why therefore will you insist that the writer of Proverbs used qânâh in a different way in Chapter 8 to that which he did in Chapter 4?

 

[Van]

Referring to the OP, I wholeheartedly agree with this premise:

Based on the evidence of the actual language used in the Hebrew OT, and other versions that are important, it is IMPOSSIBLE for this verse to ever be even remotely be used for the Lord Jesus Christ, in any way. Regardless of whether some of the best Christian theologians and apologists, did use it in this sense. We must decide our understanding from what the Bible actually says, and not merely follow others because they have good arguments, or they might be "notable" leaders. [/quote]

Just looking at the usage in Proverbs, to get or acquire is its usual meaning. But since God is all knowing, it seems odd to say at some point the Lord did not have wisdom. A parallel with verse 23 would be "established" thus wisdom was established and set before creation.​

 

[37818]

It is my understanding "The LORD" in Proverbs 8:22 refers to God, aka the Son per Colossians 1:16-17 and John 1:3. And "possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old," being the spirit of understandind in Proverbs 8:14, who introduces herself saying, "I am understanding; . . ."

 

[MB]

"The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old"

This verse in its context, is about God-given "wisdom" that has been "personified" throught this Book.

From the early Church some have sought to use this for the Lord Jesus Christ, and His eternal relationship with the Father. Even the great Church "father", Athanasius, used this verse in the Greek (LXX), in the sense of "appointing", to show that the Father, had made the Son the "Chief", the "Head", the "Sovereign", over all creation. On the other hand, the arch-heretic, Arius, the forerunner of cults like the Jehovah's Witnesses, used this same verse, in the same Greek version, to show that Jesus Christ is part of creation.

The word translated in English versions like the KJV, "possessed", is from the Hebrew, "qânâh", which has the meaning of "creating", by the Act of God. The Greek Old Testament Version, known as the Septuigent (LXX), renders the Hebrew verb by the Greek, "ktízō", which, like the Hebrew, also means "create", also used "to found, build", etc. The ancient, Chaldaic, Arabic, and Syriac Versions of the OT use words that agree with the LXX; the Latin Vulgate, however, uses, "possedit", from where the KJV gets its reading, "possessed" from.

Based on the evidence of the actual language used in the Hebrew OT, and other versions that are important, it is IMPOSSIBLE for this verse to ever be even remotely be used for the Lord Jesus Christ, in any way. Regardless of whether some of the best Christian theologians and apoligists, did use it in this sense. We must decide our understanding from what the Bible actually says, and not merely follow others because they have good arguments, or they might be "notable" leaders.

You're as wrong as you can be and proverbs 8:27 proves it.
MB

 

[SavedByGrace]

You're as wrong as you can be and proverbs 8:27 proves it.
MB

really? When HE (God) prepared the heavens, I (wisdom) was there. What do you, and those who support that this refers to Jesus Christ, say about the fact that FEMININE language is used to describe this "wisdom"? take a look at verses 1-3, "HER voice", "SHE stands", "SHE crys", etc, etc. Is Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the eternal Godhead, a FEMALE??? Stick with what the Bible ACTUALLY teaches, and not theological nonsense!

 

[SavedByGrace]

It is interesting that you will accept the translators of the LXX (who were not, of course, Christian, and we have no idea of any of their names) as being 'the best,' but not the translators of the KJV, whose names we do know and who (whatever one thinks of the theology of some of them) were also very learned men. You also dismiss John Gill as being KJV-only, when he was generally regarded as the finest Hebraist of his generation. I suggest that it might be you who is 'influenced by the theology of others.'

If you knew anything about translating one language into another, you would know that it involves a whole lot more that picking words out of a dictionary. Context and usage are even more important. I pointed out to you that qânâh is translated as 'get' in Proverbs 4:5 and 4:7. 'Create' is not a possible translation in those verses; 'possess' is. Why therefore will you insist that the writer of Proverbs used qânâh in a different way in Chapter 8 to that which he did in Chapter 4?

my use of the LXX, is to show that the BEST Hebrew scholars, who lived over 100 years before the Birth of Jesus Christ, and before any Christological controversies entered the Church; translated the Hebrew in Proverbs 8:22, by CREATE. As do the two leading Hebrew lexicons, used the world over by Bible translators, and pastors/students. I doubt very much that when a person wants a word defined in Hebrew, that they would turn to John Gill, and not to the standard Hebrew lexicon of Brown, Driver and Briggs! WHY do you and others who say this is Jesus Christ, never deal with the FEMININE language used for the actual speaker, "wisdom", like in verses 1-3?

You suggest that the Hebrew can be translated "get"? Well of course this is a possibility, as it is not a narrow word only meaning "create". So, we adpot this defination here in 8:22, "the Lord did GET Me in the beginning of His way...". Meaning exactly WHAT? The base meaning is "to obtain", which sounds complete nonsense in this verse!

 

[SavedByGrace]

The onus is upon those who see Jesus as being described in there, as indeed the Hebrew text does not support Him as being the One pictured!

Nor the uses of the FEMININE when "wisdom" speaks in the first person. If it were not for some of the early Church fathers, I doubt very much that any casual reader of Proverbs, would have taken "wisdom" to refer to Jesus Christ!

 

[SavedByGrace]

I have a question for those who accept the KJV rendering of the Hebrew, "qânâh", in 8:22, by "possessed", and refer the words to Jesus Christ. Can you explain exactly how this word "possess", relates to this verse, as God the Father "possessing" the Lord Jesus Christ? If this verse does refer to Jesus, and His relation to the Father, and the words in its context as understood by some, speaks of "eternity past", then what we have here is the "eternal generation" of the Lord Jesus Christ, in His essential Deity, from the Father! This teaching is from the PIT OF HELL!. Jesus Christ is in NO WAY in His Deity, "subordinate" to the Father. This is an IMPOSSIBILITY from the Holy Bible. PERIOD!!!

 

[Yeshua1]

I have a question for those who accept the KJV rendering of the Hebrew, "qânâh", in 8:22, by "possessed", and refer the words to Jesus Christ. Can you explain exactly how this word "possess", relates to this verse, as God the Father "possessing" the Lord Jesus Christ? If this verse does refer to Jesus, and His relation to the Father, and the words in its context as understood by some, speaks of "eternity past", then what we have here is the "eternal generation" of the Lord Jesus Christ, in His essential Deity, from the Father! This teaching is from the PIT OF HELL!. Jesus Christ is in NO WAY in His Deity, "subordinate" to the Father. This is an IMPOSSIBILITY from the Holy Bible. PERIOD!!!

Would not by definition as being God, each [person pf the Trinity would be co eternal, and simply always have been?