Why Proverbs 8:22 Cannot Refer to Jesus Christ.

[Alan Gross]

this is unbiblical speculation!

Read them and list them.

You don't care?

You'd have to eat your words.

Go ahead, try it.

Do you have a Bible?

In this chapter 3, Wisdom, or Christ, delivers out some fresh lessons and instructions to his children; as not to forget his doctrine, but heartily attend to his precepts and ordinances, seeing these are the means of lengthening out their days, and of enjoying peace, Proverbs 3:1; as well as had the promise of the mercy and truth of God, and the continuance of them, annexed to them; and therefore are exhorted to keep close to them, and show the greatest value and affection for them, which was the way to find favour with, and to be taken notice of by, God and man, Proverbs 3:3; and then he proceeds to exhort them to a hearty trust in the Lord, without dependence on themselves; and to seek direction from him in every step they took, which they might expect to have, Proverbs 3:5; to humility and the fear of God, and fleeing from evil, which they would find would much contribute to their health, Proverbs 3:7; to liberality in supporting the worship of God, and the interest of religion, which would turn to account and profit to them, Proverbs 3:9; to patience in bearing the chastisement of the Lord, as coming from a loving father, Proverbs 3:11; then follows a commendation of wisdom, and the happiness of the man possessed of it is declared, Proverbs 3:13; from the profit, preciousness, pleasure, and usefulness of it, Proverbs 3:14; and from its concern in the works of creation and providence, Proverbs 3:19; and from that comfort, honour, safety, and security, which come by the doctrines and instructions of Wisdom, and a steady regard to them, Proverbs 3:21; and the chapter is concluded with exhortations to beneficence, charity, concord, and peace with neighbours, Proverbs 3:27; and to shun the ways of wicked men, urged from the different state and condition of wicked men and fools, and of the just, the lowly, and wise, Proverbs 3:31.

Chapter 7
And the chapter is concluded with an exhortation to hearken to the words of Wisdom, and to avoid the ways and paths of the harlot, by which many and mighty persons have been ruined; they being the direct road to hell and death, Proverbs 7:24.

(Read all of Proverbs 8)
This chapter contains the instructions of Wisdom or Christ; showing the excellency of them, and the author of them, in opposition to the harlot and her allurements, in the preceding chapter. Christ, under the name of Wisdom, is represented as an herald, publishing the Gospel in the ministry of the word, either in person or by his servants, Proverbs 8:1. The places where this proclamation is made are described, Proverbs 8:2; the persons to whom, Proverbs 8:4. The excellency of the things delivered, being right things; truth, agreeably to the word of God, plain and easy to be understood, and of more worth than gold, silver, and precious stones, Proverbs 8:6. And then Wisdom, or Christ, is commended and recommended by his consummate prudence and knowledge, by his hatred of evil, and by his influence on the political affairs of kings and princes, Proverbs 8:12; and the advantages of those that are early seekers of him are pointed out; their enjoyment of his favour, of his riches, honour and righteousness; and their being led by him in right paths now, and inheriting eternal glory hereafter, Proverbs 8:17. And next follows an account of his existence from eternity as a divine Person, illustrated by a variety of phrases, Proverbs 8:22; and of his being with the Father; of his great affection for him, and complacency in him; and of Christ's wonderful delight and pleasure in the sons of men, Proverbs 8:30. And the chapter is concluded with an exhortation to them to hearken to his instructions; setting forth the happiness of those that wait on him in public ordinances, and find him; and the misery of those that hate and reject him.

 

[tyndale1946]

'.........But to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.'
'But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God - and righteousness and sanctification and redemption.'
'.......The knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.' ['Whom' here is singular. All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Christ]

All the O.T. Scriptures testify of Christ (Luke 24:27; John 1:45; 5:39). We should expect to find Him in more than one place in Proverbs.

Finally, I think you will find that qânâh (Strongs 7069) has a much larger semantic range than the O.P. suggests. It is used, for example, in Proverbs 4:5, 7. 'Get wisdom!' Clearly it does not mean 'create wisdom' there. In the KJV it is translated variously as 'attain,' ' buy,' 'get,' 'possess,' 'purchase, 'recover' and 'redeem.' Never as 'create.'

I do not want to set myself up as a Hebrew expert, which I am absolutely not; but nor, I suspect, is the writer of the O.P. Perhaps someone who has studied the language would care to comment?

Nor me neither Martin but I do know that John Of Japan is a Professor of Ancient Languages and the Bible and it says so on his profile... Maybe he can be coaxed over here to clear this up... He is the expert!... The OP talks a big game but what is he?... Brother Glen

 

[Alan Gross]

this is unbiblical speculation!

Read them and list them.

You don't care?

You'd have to eat your words.

Go ahead, try it.

Do you have a Bible?

(Read all of Proverbs 9)
In this chapter, Wisdom, or Christ, is represented as having built a stately house or palace for the entertainment of his guests, Proverbs 9:1; as having made large and suitable provisions for them, Proverbs 9:2; and as having sent his servants to invite them to come and partake of them, and quit all other company but his, Proverbs 9:3; When it is observed who are and who are not to be reproved, with the reasons of it, Proverbs 9:7; and what is the sum and substance of true wisdom; and what the advantages of it both here and hereafter, Proverbs 9:10; And the chapter is concluded with the description of the foolish woman, the opposite of Wisdom; who is represented as clamorous, simple, and ignorant, Proverbs 9:13; and plying passengers that go by her door, and inviting them in to partake of her provisions, Proverbs 9:14; the consequence of which is sure and certain death and destruction to her guests, Proverbs 9:18.

 

[Alan Gross]

Case closed. These passages are not referring to Jesus, but the creation of Jesus.

common contextural sense is not possessed by you, as it is by God.

A word may have many expressions, from the original language to ours, however, not all translation make sense, IN CONTEXT.

66 Books Teach, Jesus was Not Created and common contextural sense is simply not possessed by you, as it is by God, in the application of "qânâh".

Are you a translator?

The first Rule of Translation is that the Translation must MAKE SENSE.

For a "young girl" to conceive a child, in Isaiah, is a possible grammatical translation and it is used in spurious 'Bibles', and yet the Passage is speaking of "a sign" given.

What "sign" is a "young girl" having a child?

That doesn't make sense and for Christ to be Created, from a very questionable and extremely weak word, for the case in question, just flat out makes no sense.

It is like: What sense does it make for anyone to fight for a false JW position, including re-writting the Bible?

False JWs are possessed with the interest and admire adding to and taking away from the Bible, in the same way God is Possessed with a Divine Interest, Admiration, and Anticipation of His Son's Absolutely Successful Accomplishment of Being Virgin Born, Living and Obtaining Righteousness, under The Law, and Giving His Life a Ransome, FOR MANY.

common contextural sense is simply not possessed by you, as it is by God, in the application of "qânâh", where God is Possessed with a Divine Interest, Admiration, and Anticipation of His Son's Absolutely Successful Accomplishment of Being Virgin Born, Living and Obtaining Righteousness, under The Law, and Giving His Life a Ransome FOR MANY, in Proverbs 8:22.

 

[Alan Gross]

Nor me neither Martin but I do know that John Of Japan is a Professor of Ancient Languages and the Bible and it says so on his profile... Maybe he can be coaxed over here to clear this up... He is the expert!... The OP talks a big game but what is he?... Brother Glen

I meant to send you these, Tyndale, my good man:

Index of ./ < this link will go there

(let me know if you see 'Christ was Created' in any of them.......)

Nice one: (they all are nice) https://www.grace-ebooks.com/library/Jerome Zanchius/The Doctrine of Absolute Predestination.pdf

 

[Calminian]

....You'd have to eat your words.....

Not on this one. You've been deceived. The idea that you're so distressed about this one verse, to the point you're crying heresy, is very telling.

You can stand on this island if you wish, but I doubt even those commentators that agree with you are not as passionate about it.

To me, case closed. Jesus was not brought into existence, the pre-incarnate Jesus does not have feminine pronouns. There's nowhere else to go. I just hope JWs don't come to your door and back you into a corner and convince you Jesus was created.

 

[Alan Gross]

Not on this one. You've been deceived. The idea that you're so distressed about this one verse, to the point you're crying heresy, is very telling.

You can stand on this island if you wish, but I doubt even those commentators that agree with you are not as passionate about it.

To me, case closed. Jesus was not brought into existence, the pre-incarnate Jesus does not have feminine pronouns. There's nowhere else to go. I just hope JWs don't come to your door and back you into a corner and convince you Jesus was created.

 

[SavedByGrace]

'.........But to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.'
'But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God - and righteousness and sanctification and redemption.'
'.......The knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.' ['Whom' here is singular. All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Christ]

All the O.T. Scriptures testify of Christ (Luke 24:27; John 1:45; 5:39). We should expect to find Him in more than one place in Proverbs.

Finally, I think you will find that qânâh (Strongs 7069) has a much larger semantic range than the O.P. suggests. It is used, for example, in Proverbs 4:5, 7. 'Get wisdom!' Clearly it does not mean 'create wisdom' there. In the KJV it is translated variously as 'attain,' ' buy,' 'get,' 'possess,' 'purchase, 'recover' and 'redeem.' Never as 'create.'

I do not want to set myself up as a Hebrew expert, which I am absolutely not; but nor, I suspect, is the writer of the O.P. Perhaps someone who has studied the language would care to comment?

I am NOT denying that Jesus Christ IS called in Scripture, "Wisdom". the point at issue is that at this place in 8:22, the reference is NOT to Jesus Christ. On the use of the Hebrew, "qânâh", I have already given the two leading Hebrew lexicons on this, both which say that at this place, the meaning is "create". Further, the Greek OT known as the LXX, was translated from the Hebrew, by the best Hebrew scholars at the time, and they used the Greek word that also has the meaning "created". Anyone who reads this verse, who has never been influenced by the "theology" of others, would never have said that this is Jesus. It is only because others have suggested this, over the centuries, that they follow their error. You must not forget that the KJV was very much influenced by the Latin Vulgate, and the Latin language, and adopted "posessed" here following the Latin. Liddell and Scotts great Greek lexicon, has not entry for the Greek word (κτίζω) that means, "possess", but does have, "produce, create, bring into being". The Greek word is first used by Homer, and uses it to mean, "to found". The LXX lexicon that I have, by JOHAN LUST / ERIK EYNIKEL KATRIN HAUSPIE, gives the meaning of the Greek as, "to create, Prv. 8:22". The evidence for both the original Hebrew, as well as the all important Greek LXX of the OT, is very clear, that at this place in Proverbs 8:22, the language here says the meaning is CREATE. We must be giuded by those who are authorities in the languages, whose works are used when translating the Bible around the world, and not by our "theological" understanding or bias.

 

[Alan Gross]

Your changing the word and adding a meaning the denies Christ, with or without, knowing anything about pronouns and the sense with which to interpret Scripture, to God's Glory, is not possessed by you.

According to illiterate people that means you weren't created and you are a girl.

Strong work.

This OP is Anti-Christ.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Read them and list them.

You don't care?

You'd have to eat your words.

Go ahead, try it.

Do you have a Bible?

In this chapter 3, Wisdom, or Christ, delivers out some fresh lessons and instructions to his children; as not to forget his doctrine, but heartily attend to his precepts and ordinances, seeing these are the means of lengthening out their days, and of enjoying peace, Proverbs 3:1; as well as had the promise of the mercy and truth of God, and the continuance of them, annexed to them; and therefore are exhorted to keep close to them, and show the greatest value and affection for them, which was the way to find favour with, and to be taken notice of by, God and man, Proverbs 3:3; and then he proceeds to exhort them to a hearty trust in the Lord, without dependence on themselves; and to seek direction from him in every step they took, which they might expect to have, Proverbs 3:5; to humility and the fear of God, and fleeing from evil, which they would find would much contribute to their health, Proverbs 3:7; to liberality in supporting the worship of God, and the interest of religion, which would turn to account and profit to them, Proverbs 3:9; to patience in bearing the chastisement of the Lord, as coming from a loving father, Proverbs 3:11; then follows a commendation of wisdom, and the happiness of the man possessed of it is declared, Proverbs 3:13; from the profit, preciousness, pleasure, and usefulness of it, Proverbs 3:14; and from its concern in the works of creation and providence, Proverbs 3:19; and from that comfort, honour, safety, and security, which come by the doctrines and instructions of Wisdom, and a steady regard to them, Proverbs 3:21; and the chapter is concluded with exhortations to beneficence, charity, concord, and peace with neighbours, Proverbs 3:27; and to shun the ways of wicked men, urged from the different state and condition of wicked men and fools, and of the just, the lowly, and wise, Proverbs 3:31.

Chapter 7
And the chapter is concluded with an exhortation to hearken to the words of Wisdom, and to avoid the ways and paths of the harlot, by which many and mighty persons have been ruined; they being the direct road to hell and death, Proverbs 7:24.

(Read all of Proverbs 8)
This chapter contains the instructions of Wisdom or Christ; showing the excellency of them, and the author of them, in opposition to the harlot and her allurements, in the preceding chapter. Christ, under the name of Wisdom, is represented as an herald, publishing the Gospel in the ministry of the word, either in person or by his servants, Proverbs 8:1. The places where this proclamation is made are described, Proverbs 8:2; the persons to whom, Proverbs 8:4. The excellency of the things delivered, being right things; truth, agreeably to the word of God, plain and easy to be understood, and of more worth than gold, silver, and precious stones, Proverbs 8:6. And then Wisdom, or Christ, is commended and recommended by his consummate prudence and knowledge, by his hatred of evil, and by his influence on the political affairs of kings and princes, Proverbs 8:12; and the advantages of those that are early seekers of him are pointed out; their enjoyment of his favour, of his riches, honour and righteousness; and their being led by him in right paths now, and inheriting eternal glory hereafter, Proverbs 8:17. And next follows an account of his existence from eternity as a divine Person, illustrated by a variety of phrases, Proverbs 8:22; and of his being with the Father; of his great affection for him, and complacency in him; and of Christ's wonderful delight and pleasure in the sons of men, Proverbs 8:30. And the chapter is concluded with an exhortation to them to hearken to his instructions; setting forth the happiness of those that wait on him in public ordinances, and find him; and the misery of those that hate and reject him.

Can I ask you this one question. What is the big deal for us to understand that Jesus Christ is the "Wisdom" in the Book of Proverbs, especially in 8:22, where, as I have shown from the leading language experts, that both the Hebrew and Greek LXX's use of the words, show that it is IMPOSSIBLE to mean Jesus Christ in this verse, as the Hebrew word, "qânâh", when used here, means CREATE. Are you saying that you know the Habrew language and usage of this word, better than the experts?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Your changing the word and adding a meaning the denies Christ, with or without, knowing anything about pronouns and the sense with which to interpret Scripture, to God's Glory, is not possessed by you.

According to illiterate people that means you weren't created and you are a girl.

Strong work.

This OP is Anti-Christ.

So you are saying that I, and many other godly Christians are "anti Christ", because they do not share you own personal theology? you seriously need help! You are now spaeking as a fool does!

 

[Alan Gross]

Can I ask you this one question. What is the big deal for us to understand that Jesus Christ is the "Wisdom" in the Book of Proverbs, especially in 8:22, where, as I have shown from the leading language experts, that both the Hebrew and Greek LXX's use of the words, show that it is IMPOSSIBLE to mean Jesus Christ in this verse, as the Hebrew word, "qânâh", when used here, means CREATE. Are you saying that you know the Habrew language and usage of this word, better than the experts?

What are the qualifications possessed, by you, to Re-Translate The Bible?

List those.

They weren't created?

Are you JW?

 

[SavedByGrace]

What are the qualifications possessed, by you, to Re-Translate The Bible?

List those.

They weren't created?

Are you JW?

Like my posts and reasoning are like a JW!!! you are seriously DELUDED!!!

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Maybe this has already been noted, but it should be at the forefront. God is uncreated, has never not existed, which means all of his attributes are uncreated, have always existed, as well. Wisdom is an attribute of God, related to his omniscience, and as such is not created.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Maybe this has already been noted, but it should be at the forefront. God is uncreated, has never not existed, which means all of his attributes are uncreated, have always existed, as well. Wisdom is an attribute of God, related to his omniscience, and as such is not created.

the OP is about Proverbs 8:22 and its relation to Jesus, if there is one?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Nor me neither Martin but I do know that John Of Japan is a Professor of Ancient Languages and the Bible and it says so on his profile... Maybe he can be coaxed over here to clear this up... He is the expert!... The OP talks a big game but what is he?... Brother Glen

Why not address this to myself, as I have written the OP? The person you refer to might be a "professor", meaing what? I have quoted from the LEADING authorities on both Hebrew and Greek, and they are very much conclusive that the Hebrew and Greek means CREATE. I am sure that even John Of Japan would use these lexicons when trying to understand the meaning of a word! Most of the arguments here are purly "theological", and have little of nothing to do with the use of the actual languages used in the Bible, and their words as defined by the experts.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I thought that I'd give the definations of the Hebrew and Greek (LXX) use of the words as found in Proverbs 8:22. It is very clear that the authorities in these languages have shown, that in neither case that they are used as "possess", though can be the meaning in other languages, with akin words.

Lets discuss this as brethern in the Lord, and not have a mud-slinging match!

Brown, Driver, Briggs, Hebrew Lexicon

H7069

H7069. qanah

I. קָנָה84 verb get, acquire (Late Hebrew = Biblical Hebrew; Phoenician (Punic) מקנא, property [in cattle]; Assyrian ‡anû, gain, acquire, MeissnSuppl. 85; Arabic (,) acquire, procure; Sabean קני acquire, possess, CISiv,no.89, 5.6, קני noun property Idib,no.3, 8, 29, 3; Ethiopic acquire, subjugate; Aramaic קְנָא, (accquire); —

Qal81 Perfect3masculine singular ׳ק Gen_25:10 +; suffix נ֑ךָ קֶָ Deu_32:6, קָנָהוּ Lev_27:24; Lev_27:3feminine singularקָֽנְתָה Psa_78:54; Psa_78:2masculine singular קָנִיתָ Exo_15:16 +, etc.; Imperfect3masculine singular יִקְנֶךְ Lev_22:11 +, וַיִ֫קֶן Gen_33:19 +, etc.; Imperative masculine singular קְנֵח Gen_47:19 +; Infinitive absolute קָנֹה Lev_25:14; 1Ch_21:24, קָנוֺ 2Sa_24:24; cstr. קְנֹה Pro_16:16, קְנוֺת Pro_16:16 +, etc.; Participle קֹנֶה Deu_28:68, קְוֺנֶה Pro_15:32 +, etc.; —

1 get, acquire (all poetry) :

a. of God as originating, creating, וָאָרֶץ שָׁמַיִם קֹנֵה Gen_14:19, Gen_14:22; Deu_32:6 (Israel), Psa_139:13 (כִּלְֹיתָ֑י); Pro_8:22 ( חכמה q. v.).

b. of God as victoriously redeeming his people Exo_15:16; Isa_11:11; Psa_74:2 (|| גָּאַל) object הַרוֶֿה Psa_78:54.

c. of Eve, acquiring ׳אֶתיֿ קַיִן, (i.e. with the help of), Gen_4:1 (J).

d. of acquiring wisdom, knowledge (only Proverbs): Pro_1:5; Pro_4:5 (twice in verse); Pro_4:7 (twice in verse); Pro_15:32; Pro_16:16 (twice in verse); Pro_17:16; Pro_18:15; Pro_19:8; Pro_23:23.

2 elsewhere buy Exo_21:2 (E), Gen_47:22 (J), Gen_50:13 (P), Lev_27:24(H), Deu_28:68; Isa_24:2; Jer_13:1; Eze_7:12; Pro_20:14 +; קֹנֶה owner, as purchaser Lev_25:30 (P) Isa_1:3; Zec_11:5 +.

Niph`al be bought: Perfect3masculine singular נִקְנָה Jer_32:43; Imperfect3masculine plural יִקָּנוּ Jer_32:15.

Hiph`il Perfect3masculine singular suffix חִקְנַנִי אָדָם Zec_13:5; AV makes denominative of מִקְנֶה cattle; Thes RV MartiKau Buhl caused (one) to purchase me, i.e. made me a bondman; < We Now GASm read קִנְיָנִי אֲרָמָה — Participle מַקְנֶה see קנא.


Gesenius Hebrew Lexicon


GES7028

קָנָה

fut. יִקְנֶה; apoc. יִקֶן prop. to erect, to set upright, i.q. הֵכִין (cogn. to כּוּן, קִין; whence קָנֶה, קָנָה reed, cane); hence-

(1) to found, create [see note below] the heaven and the earth, Gen_14:19, 22 Gen_14:22men, Deu_32:6 Psa_139:13 Pro_8:22 (Arab. قنا i.q. خلق to create as God; see Kamûs, p. 1937).

(2) to acquire for oneself, Pro_4:7 15:32 16:16 19:8 Rth_4:9, 10 to obtain, Gen_4:1 (Eth. ቀነየ፡ to possess, to be owner). Specially-

(3) to buy (compare Lat. conciliare, for emere, Ter. Eun. iv. 4, 2), Gen_25:10 47:22 , etc.; also to redeem (people out of captivity), Isa_11:11 Neh_5:8.

[Note. There does not appear to be any sufficient ground for ascribing the sense of to create to this verb; in all the passages cited for that sense, to possess, appears to be the true meaning; see Dr. M’Caul’s Sermon on the Divine Sonship of the Messiah. Append.]

Niphal, to be acquired, bought, Jer_32:15, 43 Jer_32:43.

Hiphil, Zec_13:5 prob. i.q. Kal No. 3, to buy [in Thes. “to sell”]. But מַקְנֶה Eze_8:3, is for מַקְנִיא exciting the jealousy or anger (of God). Hence [the following words, and קִנְיָן, מִקְנֶה, מִקְנָה, and pr.n. קְנָת]-


Liddell & Scott Greek Lexicon


G2936

κτίζω,

Emp. 23.6, etc.: fut. - ίσω A. Ch. 1060: aor. ἔκτῐσα Od. 11.263, etc.; poet. ἔκτισσα Pi. P. 1.62, A. Pers. 289 (lyr.), κτίσσα Il. 20.216, κτίσα Pi. P. 5.89: pf. ἔκτῐκα Lyr.Alex.Adesp. 1.8, D.S. 7.5, 15.13: —

Med., poet. aor. ἐκτίσσατο Pi. O. 10(11).25, Fr. 1.4 (ἐκτής - codd.): —

Pass., fut. κτισθήσομαι Str. Chr. 5.38, D.H. 1.56: aor. ἐκτίσθην Th. 1.12, etc.: pf. ἔκτισμαι Hdt. 4.46, Hp. Art. 45, E. Fr. 360.9: —

1. people a country, build houses and cities in it, κτίσσε δὲ Δαρδανίην Il.l.c.; κ. χώρην, νῆσον, Hdt. 1.149, 3.49.

2. of a city, found, build, Θήβης ἕδος ἔκτισαν Od.l.c., cf. Hdt. 1.167, 168, Th. 6.4, PCair.Zen. 169 (iii B.C.); ἀποικίαν A. Pr. 815: — Pass., to be founded, Σμύρνην τὴν ἀπὸ Κολοφῶνος κτισθεῖσαν founded by emigrants from Colophon, Hdt. 1.16, cf. 7.153, 8.62; μήτε ἄστεα μήτε τείχεα ἐκτισμένα no fixed cities or walls, Id. 4.46; - ομένη πόλις Phld. Rh. 2.155 S.

3. κ. ἄλσος plant a grove, Pi. P. 5.89; βωμόν set up an altar, Id. O. 7.42; ἑορτάν, ἀγῶνα, found, establish it, ib. 6.69, 10(11).25 (Med.); τὸν Κύρνον.. κτίσαι, ἥρων ἐόντα establish his worship, Hdt. 1.167; δαῖτάς τινι A. Ch. 484 (Pass.); τάφον τινί S. Ant. 1101; αἵρεσιν Phld. Rh. 1.77 S.; σύνοδον IG 22.1343.12 (i B.C.).

4. produce, create, bring into being, γόνῳ τινά A. Supp. 172 (lyr.); bring about, τελευτήν ib. 140 (lyr.), cf. Ch. 441 (lyr.); ὁ τὴν φιλίην ἐκτικώς Lyr.Alex.Adesp. l.c.; of painters, δένδρεα.. καὶ ἀνέρας ἠδὲ γυναῖκας Emp.l.c.; ἵπποισι τὸν χαλινὸν κτίσας having invented it, S. OC 715 (lyr.).

5. make so and so, ἐλεύθερον κ. τινά A. Ch. 1060; ἔνθεον κτίσας φρένα Id. Eu. 17, cf. 714; ποτανὰν εἴ σέ τις θεῶν κτίσαι E. Supp. 620 (lyr.), cf. A. Pers. 289 (lyr.).

6. perpetrate a deed, S. Tr. 898. (Cf. Skt. kséti 'reside', k[snull ]itís (= cross κτίσις) 'habitation'.)


Thayer Greek Lexicon

G2936

κτίζω: 1 aorist ἔκτισα; perfect passive ἐκτισμαι; 1 aorist passive ἐκτίσθην; the Sept. chiefly for áÈÌøÈà; properly, to make habitable, to people, a place, region, island (Homer, Herodotus, Thucydides, Diodorus, others); hence to found, a city, colony, state, etc. (Pindar and following; 1Es_4:53). In the Bible, to create: of God creating the world, man, etc., Mar_13:19; 1Co_11:9; Col_1:16 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 272 (255)); ; Eph_3:9; 1Ti_4:3; Rev_4:11; Rev_10:6 (Deu_4:32; Ecc_12:1; often in O. T. Apocrypha, as Jdt_13:18; Wis_2:23 Wis_11:18 (); 3Ma_2:9; (Josephus, Antiquities 1, 1, 1; Philo de decal. § 20)); absolutely, ὁ κτίσας, the creator, Rom_1:25; (Mat_19:4 Tr WH); equivalent to to form, shape, i. e. (for substance) completely to change, to transform (of the moral or new creation of the soul, as it is called), κτισθέντες ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ ἐπί ἔργοις ἀγαθοῖς, in intimate fellowship with Christ constituted to do good works (see ἐπί, B. 2 a. ζ.), Eph_2:10; τούς δύο εἰς ἕνα καινόν ἐνθρωπον, ibid. 15; τόν κτισθέντα κατά Θεόν, formed after God's likeness (see κατά, II. 3 c. δ.), Eph_4:24 (καρδίαν καθαράν κτίσον ἐν ἐμοί, Psa_50:12 ()).


Arndt & Gingrich Greek Lexicon (sorry the Greek fonts did not show up, though the meanings are there)


ktivzw

ktivzw 1 aor. e[ktisa ; pf. pass. e[ktismai ; 1 aor. pass. ejktivsqhn ( Hom. +; inscr. , pap. , LXX ) create, in our lit. of God’s creative activity ( LXX ; En. , Ep. Arist. 185; Eupolis in Euseb., Pr. Ev. 9, 31; Philo , Decal. 97; Jos. , Bell. 3, 369; 379, Ant. 1, 27; Sib. Or. 3, 20; Fluchtaf. 4, 1; PGM 5, 98 ff ) ti; someth. 1 Ti 4:3 . ktivsin Mk 13:19 . to;n oujrano;n kai; ta; ejn aujtw`/ the heaven and what is in it Rv 10:6 . ta; pavnta ( Herm. Wr. 13, 17) 4:11 a; cf. b. oJ qeo;" oJ ta; pavnta ktivsa" Eph 3:9 ; Hm 1:1; cf. s 5, 5, 2 and D 10:3; pass. Col 1:16 a, b ( cf. ejn I 5a). oJ qeo;" ktivsa" ejk tou` mh; o[nto" ta; o[nta what is from what is not Hv 1, 1, 6. to;n kovsmon v l, 3, 4. to;n kovsmon e{neka tou` ajnqrwvpou m 12, 4, 2. ta; e[qnh s 4:4. to;n laovn s 5, 6, 2. Pass. ejktivsqh ajnhvr 1 Cor 11:9 . Of the church pavntwn prwvth ejktivsqh Hv 2, 4, 1. Of the angels oiJ prw`toi ktisqevnte" v 3, 4, 1; s 5, 5, 3. Abs. oJ ktivsa" the Creator ( Jos. , Bell. 3, 354) Ro 1:25 ; Mt 19:4 ( v.l. poihvsa"). oJ ta; pavnta ktivsa" the Creator of the universe Hs 7:4 ( PGM 13, 62 to;n pavnta ktivsanta ; 983).—Also of the Spirit to; pneu`ma to; ktivsan pa`san th;n ktivsin Hs 5, 6, 5.—Of the divine creative activity w. regard to the inner life of man: of men who were ktisqevnte" ejn Cristw`/ jIhsou` ejpi; e[rgoi" ajgaqoi`" created (by God) in Christ Jesus for good deeds Eph 2:10 . i{na tou;" duvo ktivsh/ ejn aujtw`/ eij" e{na kaino;n a[nqrwpon in order that he (Christ) might make them both (Jews and Gentiles) one new man in him vs. 1 5. to;n kaino;n a[nqrwpon to;n kata; qeo;n ktisqevnta ejn dikaiosuvnh/ the new man, created in the likeness of God in righteousness 4:2 4. Corresp. to;n nevon (a[nqrwpon) to;n ajnakainouvmenon eij" ejpivgnwsin katÆ eijkovna tou` ktivsanto" aujtovn the new man, who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of his Creator Col 3:10 . ejgenovmeqa kainoiv, pavlin ejx ajrch`" ktizovmenoi we became new, created again from the beginning B 16:8. kardivan kaqara;n ktivson ejn ejmoiv 1 Cl 18:10 (Ps 50:12 ).
S. on ejkloghv , end, and Teschendorf under givnomai I 2a.—PKatz, The Mng. of the root hnq : Journal of Jewish Studies 5, 126-31; WFoerster, TW III 999-1034 ktivzw and related words. M-M. **

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

the OP is about Proverbs 8:22 and its relation to Jesus, if there is one?

If I understand correctly, though I did not see it clearly stated, the real question is whether this Wisdom of Proverbs could be the Logos of John, the fear of some and the hope of others being that Proverbs and John taken together might be forced to mean that the Wisdom of God or the Logos was somehow created.

 

[SavedByGrace]

If I understand correctly, though I did not see it clearly stated, the real question is whether this Wisdom of Proverbs could be the Logos of John, the fear of some and the hope of others being that Proverbs and John taken together might be forced to mean that the Wisdom of God or the Logos was somehow created.

this thread is only dealing with Proverbs 8:22, and especially the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek, for the word the KJV translates as "possessed". I have never done a study of the use of "wisdom" in this whole Book, to say whether it anywhere refers to the Lord Jesus Christ. As I have said, I most certainly believe that Jesus is indeed called "Wisdom" in the Bible, as this is very clearly taught. If someone can show me from the language (not theology) used in 8:22, that this can refer to Jesus Christ, and if I am shown to be in error, then I will openly admit my mistake and accept the truth, if it is different to what I believe now.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

I thought that I'd give the definations of the Hebrew and Greek (LXX) use of the words as found in Proverbs 8:22. It is very clear that the authorities in these languages have shown, that in neither case that they are used as "possess", though can be the meaning in other languages, with akin words.

Lets discuss this as brethern in the Lord, and not have a mud-slinging match!

Lexicons can be quite useful, but context must still rule, for lexicons are created based on the usage of language rather than vice versa. However, I would be most interested in a Mosaic or even Solomonic lexicon for reference.

I suspect that the range of expression for the language in the verses at hand has not yet been reached.